Talk:First Minister for Wales

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[edit] First Minister for Wales or First Minister of Wales?

I'm sure the position is normally referred to as "First Minister for Wales". See for example: [1], "To e-mail Rhodri Morgan as First Minister for Wales..."

On wales.gov.uk, Google finds:

• 52 references to "First Minister for Wales"
• 3 references to "First Minister of Wales"
• 16 references to "First Minister of the Welsh Assembly (Government)"

Therefore I suggest, in the interests of NPOV, the correct name for the article is First Minister for Wales.

It's also the "National Assembly for Wales". Perhaps this is just a result of the Government's current fad of using "for", for example "Department for Transport". I always think it sounds a little bit silly, but then it was decided on by politicians after all. JRawle (Talk) 01:02, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Really it's neither

At present, the title "First Minister" is just a made-up term. Obviously when the Government of Wales Bill passes into law, the title will be defined in statute. In either case though, there is no formal expansion of the title to include either "for Wales" or "of Wales". The job is simply First Minister, as it is in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Therefore, plucking out the number of references to "for Wales" or "of Wales" on the National Assembly website would seem to me to be irrelevant, as both are colloquial usages.

Having said that, however, in the English language it is common to refer to a country's head of government as the head of government *of* that country. In fact, in English, the preposition "of" is a direct replacement for the genitive. The preposition "for" is not.

"First Minister for Wales" sounds ridiculous and is not terminology that we would use to describe any other country's head of government.

As an aside, a search on Google proper returns 17 100 hits for "First Minister of Wales" compared to only 16 100 for "First Minister for Wales". I would suggest that that backs up my argument about common usage in English, and that that is what we should be looking at when considering NPOV, not the perhaps distorted viewpoint of the Welsh Assembly Government/National Assembly for Wales spin machine. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kennethmac2000 (talk • contribs) 18:31, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

You're right that Wales isn't/won't be part of the official title. Perhaps, then, I could suggest First Minister (Wales) as the article's tite? Also, a paragraph could be inserted discussing just this – that's the best way to keep it neutral.

I did notice the results of the Google search, but I wasn't about to undermine my argument! But as you say, normal usage in English is "of", so even if the official title were "First Minister for Wales" I'd expect many pages to use the incorrect form. In fact, I'm surprised the number is so low.

National Assembly for Wales is definitely correct, though. JRawle (Talk) 20:51, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I've changed the opening line so that it just refers to the First Minister. That makes it consistent with the article on the Scottish First Minister. JRawle (Talk) 16:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Government of Wales Bill

I've just had a look at the text of the Bill. In the part defining the role of the First Minister, it's referred to as just that. However, in the section amending various other Acts of Parliament and Statutory Instruments it makes many references to the First Minister for Wales. An Acrobat search reveals no instances of "First Minister of Wales" in the Bill. So where disambiguation is necessary, they use "First Minister for Wales". JRawle (Talk) 16:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I see that. However, I don't think that gives it any legal status over and above alternative expressions such as "First Minister of Wales" or "Wales' First Minister". The whole phrase "First Minister for Wales" isn't actually defined anywhere in the Bill.

Interesting as well to note that a search for "First Minister of Scotland" returns 51 400 hits on Google compared to a miserly 661 for "First Minister for Scotland". Could it be that the First Minister in Scotland is genuinely seen as the leader of the nation, whilst in Wales the First Minister is just seen as an unremarkable, boring official. Getting off topic now I know, but why does Wales have such a problem about seeing itself unambiguously as a nation distinct from England like Scotland does, and why doesn't it demand the institutions that would give it this nationhood? Kennethmac2000 00:54, 3 April 2006 (UTC)