Talk:First Bulgarian Empire

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Contents 1 Establishment and development of the Bulgarian state 2 Picture of Simeon I 3 Image:Madara Horseman.jpg 4 The Map of The First Empire 5 About the Bulgar-Killer 6 Emperor of Bulgars and Greeks= 7 accurancy dispute 8 It was an Empire

[edit] Establishment and development of the Bulgarian state

"Yet another Bulgar tribe, led by Khan Asparuh, moved westward, occupying today’s southern Bessarabia. After a successful war with Byzantium in 680 AD, Asparuh’s khanate conquered Moesia and Dobrudja and was recognised as an independent state under the subsequent treaty signed with the Byzantine Empire in 681 AD. The same year is usually regarded as the year of the establishment of present-day Bulgaria.

In 681, the Bulgars founded a khanate on the Danube after defeating an army of the Byzantine Empire under Emperor Constantine IV in a battle south of the Danube's delta. Following their defeat, an agreement was made between the Bulgar ruler Asparukh and the Byzantine Emperor, giving the Bulgars the territory between the Carpathians and the Balkans range and yearly tribute from the Byzantine."

The two paragraphs are clearly redundant, and one should be deleted.Nicholai 22:35, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Picture of Simeon I

Since this painting was made in the 20th century, I think it's fantasy, not based on the way Simeon really looked like. If that's the case, we should write so in the caption. bogdan 19:14, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Madara Horseman.jpg

[edit] The Map of The First Empire

Never in all the accounts I have read did it mention that the First Bulgarian Empire reach so far south. Never in all the other maps that I have seen did it show the Empire reaching so far south. The map in the article shows the Empire having conquered (or at the very least occupied) all of Thessaly, all of Epirus, and most of Thrace--and a good deal more. Looking through my collection of books on Byzantine and Balkan history, looking through the maps and the information set forth, I can't see evidence for those massive conquests. If the author of the article's map would like to give credible reasons for showing such territorial aquisition, then I won't complain any more. However, if not, then I call that the image be removed and replaced by something more historically accurate. I won't have a problem with the image as long as the information set out by it can be verified by credible sources. Ryan 04:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Anybody can draw maps, so I tend to trust written sources. My Encyclopaedia Britanica speaks only of a Bulgarian empire in the former Roman provinces of Moesia, Thracia, and Macedonia. My main French source, Michel Mourre's Dictionnaire d'histoire universelle, does speak of a Bulgarian expansion on the territories of present-day Albania, Serbia, and Macedonia. So, maybe the map should extend quite a lot southward; but on what (scientific) grounds could one have it expand so much to the north - that is beyond my understanding.

Quatrocentu 07:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

to be honest, i probably overstepped with my...vehemence?...From my main English sources (as I can only speak English!), of Norwich, Treadgold, and the English translation of Ostrogorsky's History of the Byzantine State, I didn't see anything stating that the Bulgarian Empire conquered so much territory--especially in Thrace and Thessaly. Personally, I'd like to see a map more in line with majority opinion--What that opinion is, I'm not completely sure, as it may be different for 'other language' authors. The northern expansion too is a question of debate--Althoguh the Bulgarians did at one time have that territory, I'm not sure if they may have lost it by Simeon's reign. Now, when you mention 'Macedonia', do you mean the 'Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia' or the Greek area of Macedonia? I think you mean the latter, but I'm not sure. Also, if it is the later, then how far does 'Macedonia' extend? Does it include all of Thessaly? Anyhow, to reiterate, I'd like to see a map on this article whose boundaries can be verified by credible sources. I think I should stop stressing that now. Ryan 09:02, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Ryan, I have seen several maps but have no books with me as I now live in a different country. There is a book called "A Concise History of Bulgaria", (Cambridge Concise Histories) by RJ Crampton. If I'm not mistaken there were a few maps there. The conquest of Serbia and establishing a border with Croatia is well known. Pressing further down from Serbia into present Albania and Greece is also nothing new. I guess your question revolves around "how far"? John.V.Fine's book "The Early Medieval Balkans" states that Simeon's army reached the Gulf of Corinth on p.150. I found one this link http://www.vic.com/~tscon/romanity/friesian/romania.htm#bulgar-1 , which is not an academic one and this one http://lccb.scripps.edu/~amatov/BG-910.jpg They both make me think that the expansion of the Bulgarian empire under Simeon is not a vast overstatement. Also check "The Bulgarians: From pagan times to the Ottoman conquest" by David Marshall. And do not get too obcessed with maps. Many of the old documents were rather inaccurate or at least biased. As far as Macedonia is concerned, the idea is of the whole region, which is in today's Bulgaria, FYROM and Greek Macedonia in the Greek North. However, if you're keen on checking the borders of that region according to written sources every 30 or 50 years, you'll probably find that they're not identical. (Kaloyan)

My Name is Angel Usunov

and my great grandfather was deported from a town near present day Thessalonik,after the Berlin Congress, and I am a Bulgarian as well as he was! Yes the Bulgarian culture presistet throughout the centuries and stayed alive during the rule of the Turks. There are plenty of records found in monastery chronics which were allowed to opperate during Ottaman. Please don't deny my nationality and I think Wikipedia should not allow history to forget people dying in a genocide because of heir nationality. Half of my family died and thousands of other Bulgarians were deported to an island in the mediteranean, to be rescued one year later by Bulgarian Military. In the 1st empire Macedonia was conceived as a Region of Bulgaria and that means all of it, FYROM part, Bulgarian part and Greek part. I hope the article stays like this as it certainly proves that Bulgaria had an extend to Thessaly.( I hope I am real to you, because you are trying to deny my existance.)

Angel Usunov

"My name is Bonzo the monkey and my great grandfather came from neverneverland.They once gave me a candybar in preliminary because i did i nice picture".Wake up man,this is Wikipedia.And year 2006.If u dont like it don't read it.If the majority of other users dont agree with something then it gets thrown out whether u like it or not.This is not a place for your historical/political propaganda. Oh, and...newsflash :Nobody denied your nationality.You just got it all wrong;nationality ,geography and DNA are three completely different things.

Bonzo The Monkey--NatK 01:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About the Bulgar-Killer

Just a small addition: The former Greek President of Democracy , Konstantinos Stefanopoulos requested in 2004 that the title "Voulgaroktonos" (Bulgar Killer) ,given to emperor Vasilios II should be removed.From now on ,greek history books will not use this title because ,as he stated, it implies hostility towards the Bulgarian ethnos: "Considering the fact that nowadays our relationship with Bulgaria is really warm and the actions of this emperor were not of the most morale,they were not the kind of actions that should be remembered as monuments in our history.During my visits in the Balcan countries I am trying to reach an agreement with the local authoritarians that history books should express today's reality.The start will be given by our books."

link: http://chiosnews.com/cn119200440751PM0.asp (in greek)

His request was later accepted by the Greek Ministry of Education.--NatK 23:21, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Tell you what, I'm sure he has good intentions for improving relations with neighboring states, but certain Macedonian nationalists, who consider Samuil to be macedonian king, will just love that. Whether it provokes hostility or not is a matter of debate, but one thing is for sure, history cant be changed. FunkyFly 23:05, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

The translation from Greek is a bit difficult.In the way he says it ,he doesn't want to change or erase history,but to remove a title which is insulting to Bulgarians.Of course history cannot be changed.--NatK 23:21, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Emperor of Bulgars and Greeks=

I think there is a mistake. Simeon proclaimed himself Tsar of "BULGARS AND ROMANS", not "ROMANS AND GREEKS". If you thought that by Romans he meant greeke, well you`re wrong. The greeks were "Romiei". The "Romans" were the local vlach population, wich called and still call themselves "Romans". This distinction between "romei" and "romans" was aknowledged by the contemporary byzantine emperor Constantine VII. Greier 11:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC) I think it is very clear that he procliamed himslef Tsar of "Bulgars and Romei" which is probably translated as "Romans" in English as the Byzatians considered themsleves heirs of the Roaman Empire and the Romans. On the other hand the Vlach population did not call themselves "Romans" until much later. I should also note that Byzantians did not accuire greek identity until much later as well. Now to go back to Simeon he made that claim after his vicotry over the Byzatian empire and the "Romei" so it makes no sense to connect it with Vlachs.--fmrafka 06:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] accurancy dispute

I disagree with the naming of the article - the proper translation in enlgish would be more like First Bulgarian (Danube) State rather then empire - although the title "tzar" is to be considered equal to emperor I still hold it incorrect to label the state as an empire. I would challenge anyone to point a historical paper in Bulgarian that refers to the First Bulgarian State as an empire. There are handful of tzars who procliam themselves rulers of bulgarian, greeks etc. but this could hardly be interpreted as an imperial discourse. On the contraory I argue that primer goal for most rulers was gain control of teritory precieved to be Bulgarian which is apparent in the Second and Third Bulgarian state (the later devided into Kingdom(also an incorrect label in my opinion)and Republic but considered in general as the Third Bulgarian State). Furthermore the very nature of the State was to blend Slavonic and Bulgarian tribes with Slavs being the majority in probably all the territories ever to come under Bulgarian rule( there are handful of exceptions however). We should be extra careful with the selection of words as empire inplies conquering territories! Firstly national identity was predominantly absent at least not untill the dawn of the First Bulgarian State so Slavonic population was readily submitting to Bulgarian rule as soon as their habitat was cleared of (Byzantian)empire troops. Secondly the Bulgarian rulers never showed any aspirations towards territories considered predominantly foreign although some attemps/ambitions to conquer Constantinopol were present with some rulers. In general I will be very careful about the definition of empire and avoid to use the term regarding the federative organization of the First Bulgarian (Danube) State. -fmrafka-fmrafka 06:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)27/07/2006

"Empire" is what the first two Bulgarian States are commonly referred to in English, for example in Encyclopaedia Britannica. In Bulgarian it is commonly refered to as the First Bulgarian Tzardom (tsarstvo), which would literally translate to empire, not as the First Bulgarian Imperia, which in Bulgarian generally refers to foreign powers. Even the Byzantine Empire is more often than not referred to as Byzantium (Vizantia).

--Kroum 17:22, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

User Kroum is right, the name First Bulgarian Empire is generally accepted in English-language literature. The meaning and the status of Bulgarian title Tsar in medieval Bulgarian ideology, derived etimologically from the title Caesar, is equivalent to the title Emperor. Bulgarian Rulers believed in their supremacy over Byzantine Emperors and because of this the traditional name of the Byzantines in Bulgarian medieval literature is simple "the Greeks". So the name First Bulgarian Tsardom is equivalent to the name First Bulgarian Empire.

R.J. Crampton's book A Concise History of Bulgaria refers to them as 'Kingdoms'.

Another example: Steven Runciman's book "The History of the First Bulgarian Empire", G. Bell & Sons, London, 1930. Please look at the article Tsar! About the same question in the Second Bulgarian Empire. Tsar Kaloyan (1197-1207) pretended to be recognized as "imperator Bulgarorum et Blachorum" in his correspondence with the Pope with argument that he was true successor of old Bulgarian Tsars like Petar and Samuil. In fact the Pope refused such hazardous and striking wish, as it seemеd in the eyes of every educated westerner from these times, and gave him the title "Rex Bulgarorum et Blachorum", which was equal to the titles of western Catholic Kings. Nevertheless Bulgarian rulers from Second Empire entitled themselves as "Tsars"... - Jackanapes 16:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] It was an Empire

Ok, guys we are writing in the English version of Wikipedia and we should use the terms accepted in the West - Empire instead of Tsardom. After all it was an empire since it ruled over many peoples. I do not agree that Tsar stems from Cesar (it is a pure nonsense to me) but it is widely accepted and lets leave it like that. BTW Sar in the eastern Iranian languages means ... HEAD!!! Keep that in mind if you think that Bulgar language was not Turkic. Internedko 23:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Pure nonsense? All right, than how do you explain "tsar" was originally written цѣсарь and then shortened? I don't know why you think sar has anything to do with this easy to explain etymologically title, but never mind. Todor→Bozhinov 18:56, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

In which document it was written CESAR originally?Internedko 21:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

The Tale of Igor's Campaign (12th century, Old East Slavic, here) and an Old Bulgarian translation of Josephus' The Wars of the Jews (earlier than the 13th-14th century [1], here) are both among the countless examples of a medieval use of "цѣсарь". The use of the titlo when writing the word as "Tsar" also proves undeniably that it is a shortening. Mentioning the medieval OCS name of Istanbul, "Цѣсарьградъ" (shortened to "Царьградъ" in CS), is made quite needless by these proofs.

As a matter of fact, many of these alternative linguistic theories on the origin of the Bulgars fail when they begin listing Bulgarian words of allegedly Iranian/Turkic/Martian origin by ignoring long established and proven etymology.Todor→Bozhinov 13:50, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Toshko thanks for taking the time to asnwer but you did not convince me at all. As you know the first use of Tsar in Europe is documented in the 9th century with Petar I, the son of Symeon (who called himself basileus BTW, not tsar). Titling Symeon as Tsar is a later anachronistic interpolation. However, ALL the sources you provided are EASTERN Slavonic (Russian) or Bulgarian translation of russian texts as earliest one is from about 11 century. NONE of them is original Bulgarian. Since the Russians were NOT Bulgarians, they had no way of knowing the word Tsar. The earliest use of Tsar in Russian is attested in Petar I after he conquered Tatarstan (Volga Bulgaria). As far as I know in Bulgaria Cesar sounded as Kesar???

The history is full of long established delusions. BTW the title Archon which is so often attested in the sources as the title of the Bulgarian rulers is literaly translated in Greek as "the head one" or loosely as "the first one". So Archon is a mere translation of Tsar.Internedko 23:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Now: archon is not a translation, it is an Ancient Greek title (history of Athens anyone :)) much older than the Bulgarian state. Also, exactly the phonetic difference (/ʦ/ and /k/) between Kesar (minor Byzantine title) and Tsar proves that Tsar was directly inherited from the Latin Caesar (and not through Greek). Just like Kral as a title stems from the name of Charlemagne through metathesis.

The sources I provided are, as I said, just some of the many. I chose these because they are easily available on the web. The titlo used by older Bulgarian manuscripts clearly states it is a contraction (read Tsar and titlo). Here you can see "цѣсарь" being used in the Codex Suprasliensis (East Bulgaria, 10th-11th century).

As for Russia, the title was first used by Ivan III (15th century) as his state grew into an empire. In fact, 17th-18th-century Peter I of Russia was the one who officially substituted Tsar with Imperator, and not the one who introduced Tsar as a title, of course. And the title was first mentioned in Russian manuscripts in The Tale of Igor's Campaign, 12th century, which has nothing to do with Peter I of Russia, as you know.

Simeon is called Tsar in Mostich's Inscription ("... при Симеоне цри..."), which is from the same period (10th century, not 9th). It is not anachronistic or an interpolation.

I really hope this is convincing now :) Todor→Bozhinov 12:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

At first it sounds convincing but when you look close at the 'facts' you quoted ..well it is another story. :)

First of all this use 'цесар' in East Bulgarian manuscript conserns not a BULGARIAN ruler but someone called Konstantin (probably Constatine I who was A cesar, coz he was a Roman).

Secondly, the inscription of Mostich ...he-he, Mostich died at the times of Petar, who was the first to use title and it was inlerpolated back to include Symeon. As far as I know there isn't a written reconrd from Symeon times which quotes him as a Tsar. Even if Symeon used the title this is not the point here.

About the russian Peter I, yes you are right, it wasn't him it was Ivan III, I didn't bother to check the facts, because the point was that the one who first conquerred the Volga Bulgars was the one to attach the title Tsar to his name. As for the tale about Igor, I'll have to know more about it to prove you wrong again.:)

BTW do you know where I can download Old Cyrillic font for my Windows because I can't read some of the characters?? Internedko 14:16, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Foreign ruler? I don't actually see the difference, sorry, and I'm confused by your peculiar argumentation, statements and reactions. You simply have to look at Tsar and titlo to find all the thorough evidence you'd ever need.

As for Mostich, I don't see how and why a person who served both rulers would "interpolate" the title to Simeon only several decades after his death.

I'm tired of repeating just how indisputable the etymology of the word is, and as I see you simply refuse any argument or proof I provide with some peculiar response, there's no sense in going on, I think. I mean, it's OK to believe in what you believe, but don't disregard a long-proven etymology. Todor→Bozhinov 16:12, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

The point is that Цесар was only applied to non-bulgarian rulers and Цар to Bulgarian ones. These are two different words which stem from different roots and jsut happen to have similar meaning and spelling. Anyway I don't want to argue either, you started. When I have enough fact I will prove it.Internedko 17:24, 19 September 2006 (UTC)