Talk:Fire protection

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Contents 1 Regarding deletion proposal 2 Proposed mergers 3 Almost turns into an essay 4 NPOV 5 Rebuttal By Author 6 Linkspamming 7 Built in Safety Measures

[edit] Regarding deletion proposal

I created this article as a stub with the intention of expanding it later. The following is said about stubs on Wikipedia (refer to Wikipedia:stubs): "A stub is an article that's obviously too short, but not so short as to be considered useless. In general, it must be long enough to at least define the article's title, which generally means 3 to 10 short sentences." If the complaint is that this article is an obvious dictionary definition, and stubs are supposed to at least define the title of the article that it seeks to have expanded, then it follows that the stub would be an obvious dictionary definition to start. -- backburner001 05:43, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed mergers

Since both Active fire protection and Passive fire protection are subsets of fire protection, I suggest that these two articles be merged into Fire protection. -- backburner001 00:33, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

For the record, subsequent discussions between backburner001 and myself, have resulted in expansions of both the AFP and PFP articles, which everyone now appears to agree can stand on their own. --Achim 03:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Almost turns into an essay

The second section starts to look like an essay at points and while talking about asking people questions about their building. I have no problems with outlining the potential fragility of a fire protection system and the need for everyone to know what's going on with it, however parts of that section make very broad and general accusations against people (IE. "absolutely no idea", etc). 68.39.174.238 00:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

This article full of NPOV, unencyclopedic wording. The latter half, in particular, is full of accusatory language and broad-based assumptions. A major rewrite is definitely in order. -Rikoshi 01:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rebuttal By Author

The text is based on decades of experience in the field with picture and other data for back-up. I invite any critic to debate me on the merits of the text, specifically. For instance, if you have no copy of the code, you have absolutely no idea what is going on and that is simply an indisputable fact. That's why inspectors always have codes handy. No-one can be expected to know everything - but you have to know what to look up where. If, as an owner, you say you rely on your irregular fire inspection report by the municipality, you know in the back of your mind that the inspector does not see everything... Without the code text, you have nothing to compare your installed configurations against. This is an indisputable fact. The code points you to testing and certification requirements for your installed configurations. Inevitably, that leads you to UL listings, etc. If you are unable to walk up to a fireproofed beam and compare the installed configiration against the certification listing that covers it, then you cannot possibly have the remotest idea whether it meets the code or not. If you believe for one moment, that simply because you have an occupancy permit, that your municipal building and fire inspectors, let alone your consultants checked every little thing, you are sadly mistaken. So, if the coating is damaged doe to remedial work in plumbing, without the listing, how do you know what to do to fix it? Who would make that decision? Furthermore, I submit, and challenge you to rebuttal, that if you actually believe, that, without any spot checks, where you walk up to an installed system, be it a fire extinguisher, an alarm panel, a fire door, a firestop or an intumescent coated column, and if you're unable to match it to a listing that bounds the installed configuration, that all must be well anyway, simply on the sayso of people who absolve themselves legally six ways to breakfast (and they all do because in a court of law they all blame each other - I know because I have provided expert testimony and post-mortem investigations for legal cases in fires) then your beliefs are really just that - faith - or, wishful thinking. In reality, it's the owner's responsibility to maintain the building in accordance with the fire code. If the owner is lacking the proper listing information, it is a physical impossibility for him or her to do such maintenance because he or she has no idea in the slightest, what the bounding is really based upon. It follows, for instance, that if you insist on farming out firestopping to a dozen subtrades, all with different products, who may submit literature and a copy of listings, but nothing to tie the individual listings to the actual holes, then it is a physical and clericsal impossibility for the owner to keep up with matters afterwards. It is simply not possible. If you believe otherwise, say how. In reality, you have dozens of different products with different textures and colours, no labels after the installation and then what do you have? Likewise, if you paint over your fire door labels, who can blame the thoroughly untrained hotel clerk for wedging the fire door open with a "fusible" rubber door stop, and then running a combustible rug through it? If you think that this is minor, what of the rating of the compartment and what that compartment meant to the whole fire safety plan for the place? All of these things are completely and 100% obvious. It follows, that if things are farmed out in such a complex and haphazard manner during construction, that chaos must necessarily result. If you walk up to a fire-resistance rated wall, lift a ceiling tile, see a penetration firestop and no label, to identify bounding and location within an organised inventory, you have absolutely no idea whatsoever what you're facing and - especially a few years after the occupancy permit has been issued - who installed it and which listing bounds it. This goes for any system, be it active fire protection or passive fire protection. When a fire happens, in particular, it's a matter of what you can prove. That's when the finger-pointing begins. So, if your goal is proper fire protection, you better have the back-up to prove your case. On what basis would you defend parties unable to prove their cases in front of a judge? Furthermore, on what basis would you defend construction methods that result in anything less than back-up to cover installed configurations? If that were acceptable, then tell me one good reason, why you would accept a sprinkler system without the hydraulic calculations? Would you accept a backflow preventer with a Jamaican approval when you're installing it in France or Canada or Australia? Certainly not. Everything has to fit. That goes for all of fire protection - not just AFP. It follows that parties without the proper back-up must have reasons for producing field systems without demonstrable bounding. And what would those reasons be? How do you defend negligence? More importantly, what this article does, is to point out those hairy little issues that help a person to SPOT negligence. This is the ounce of prevention, which is the Education part of fire protection. And that is where it can get uncomfortable. I have the field experience and the expert testimony experience. If you check a building on the grounds described here, and you find that all is well, you have nothing to worry about, do you? If you cannot prove bounding, you cannot prove anything at all and you will be found negligent in a court of law, if you contributed to the inability to document bounding for all installed configurations. That being said, there are limited ways to build a place such that you will have that back-up. So, what causes the discomfort here?--Achim 05:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

As true as any of the above may or may not be, it doesn't change the fact that the article, as currently written, is a vehement pitch for people to practice a strict (and particular) version of fire safety, and does not read as an encyclopedic entry on fire safety itself. I naturally have no issue with wanting people to be safe, and all, but remember that Wikipedia is not a soapbox. -Rikoshi 17:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

So, absent your subject knowledge and absent any answers to the specifics, what do you intend to do then? You will not answer any specifics but criticise the text and put an NPOV tag on and suggest a re-write. You could say this for any number of articles. I could see if you could challenge even one single detail on merit, but you cannot and avoid every direct question I posed to you. So, what do we do next? Just leave the tag and wait for others to sort it out? What's your plan then? My suggestion is that if you know better, answer my questions in the text above. Defeat my arguments on merit or explain how without any subject knowledge whatsoever, you can critique the text. If there's something proven to be wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. So, I challenge you to step to the plate with something other than a single sentence reply, avoiding pointed questions, or remove the tag--Achim 22:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, I toned down the wording some and added some headings. Are you happy now?--Achim 22:49, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I have received no reply and believe that I have satisfied my critic's objection regarding the wording. Since no response was forthcoming for ten days, I have removed the NPOV tag.--Achim 02:20, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Linkspamming

I removed two links to a consulting company seeking to be hired to advise people on fire protection matters. I would not mind a neutral article on matters, but not a service for hire.--Achim 05:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Built in Safety Measures

I noticed that you didn't have any information on products that can be sprayed directly onto the wood or painted onto the walls that reduce fire damages dramatically. I don't have all the information on it my self, but there are companies that provide these safety features for very reasonable prices. No-Burn is one such product and they are used on Extreme Makeover- Home Edition houses nationwide. If you have the time I'd suggest adding No-Burn and company's like it's information to Wikipedia as I'm sure this is the future in home protection.