Talk:Fire-walking

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just letting you know that this article was mentioned on Ray D'Arcy's morning radio show on Irish station Today FM to settle a discussion about the scientific theory behind Fire-walking on Monday 11 June 2005. Well done on being definitive! RMoloney 00:43, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

will someone like ot tak a look at Holy Fire? Tiksustoo 16:38, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 "Response to Physical Explanation" 2 Comments on Application 3 Tone? 4 Mind In Matter link

[edit] "Response to Physical Explanation"

This belongs on the talk page, not in the article:

During many firewalking events, most people are able to walk across the fire unscathed, but in a small number of cases, people's feet do suffer burns.

Firewalking facilitators and participants have noticed a link between the firewalker's psychological or spiritual state and these outcomes.

For example, it is noticed that people who are possessed of fear, or in a less heightened spiritual state will be more likely to suffer burns. Also, many firewalkers have reported having doubts enter their mind during the walk, then immediately suffering 'hot spots' (small spots of minor burns).

Unless it can be shown how one's thoughts and psychological state can directly affect the physics involved in the foot burning or not burning, then the physical explanation tendered above should be questioned, and certainly not accepted as the *sole* explanation.

This is nonsense. The article explicitly says "This does not mean that it is impossible to burn your feet. Fire-walking is still dangerous." The physical explanation does not predict that there will be no burns in any case. It predicts that there will be no burns under the right physical conditions - . If people walk on a fire under the wrong physical conditions (for example, firewalking event organizers may make them do that in order to "prove" to a skeptic that you need a special "spiritual state", keeping mum about the fact that the physical conditions are wrong), they will burn their feet. Do you know of any experiments under controlled conditions that show a connection between "spiritual state" and burning? No anecdotes please - you can "prove" anything you want using anecdotes. "Noticing" is a subjective impression, and what you "noticed" is disproved by instances of people walking on fire without any mental preparation.

You can believe whatever you want, but this is an encylopedia article and should contain facts, not unwarranted speculations. It is a fact that skeptics do walk on fire without any mental preparations at all.

Also, an encyclopedia article should not have the shape of a discussion, with claims and responses. --Hob Gadling 10:02, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

That section obviously needs a total rewrite but I do think we need to mention these views as they are widely held--in fact, from a belief standpoint, I think a majority of people think psychic abilities are involved (people's credulity and magical thinking never ceases to amaze me). After all, we have articles here on astrology, past lives; all manner of silly things that people actually believe in. We can talk about the beliefs without endorsing them.--Fuhghettaboutit 12:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The article already states "Organizers of firewalking ceremonies often claim that in order to prevent one's feet from burning, meditation, calling on spirits/gods or other supernatural intervention is necessary."

Yes, I guess one could add more to that one sentence. Who knows more about what exactly those people say? --Hob Gadling 10:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on Application

First, my interest on the subject. I 'm Greek and I've heard about the Anastenaria (fire walking festival in Thrace), I 've seen them on TV and I 've heard first-hand accounts from people who watched them live (but not participated.)

I wanted to do it too, but I am an atheist and the anastenarides (the people who participate in the anastenaria) believe deeply. They enter the fire carrying icons of the saints Helene and Constantinos. Their festival is widely recognised as a relic of pre-christian ages and the Greek Orthodox Church has condemned it and gone so far as to confiscate the icons (which were handed down from generation to generation for at least a couple hundred years). The Anastenarides themselves call the saints "Grandparents" and sacrifice a black bull to them at the start of the ritual. Still, they consider themselves Christians and I don't. So I stayed away.

I believe that whatever the explanation for firewalking, the crux of the matter is that normally, people don't jump in a hotbed of coals just for fun and neither do they do it for trivial reasons (like, say, management training). The important thing about the anastenarides (and some, but not all, other firewalkers) is that they find it in them to walk on the coals.

Now that's out of the way, here's my points.

First, I would like to see a detailed description of each of the different fire walking rituals and practices cited in the article. Hindu ceremonies have nothing to do with management and motivational seminars, they in turn have nothing to do with the anastenaria and so forth.

I 've seen (on TV) a British gymnast who trained people to firewalk for self-empowerement. He had prepared a six by three feet patch of coals and trainees crossed it in three fast bounds. The coals were carefully stacked to the sides and there was a lot of ash on the center, where they "firewalked". That seems to me the sensible approach to adopt in such cases (check out the link about the KFC incident, to see what can happen otherwise)

I 've also watched the anastenaria on TV. The anastenarides walked into a circle of embers a few feet in diameter, big enough to accommodate five or six of them, and they just stood there thumping their feet on the coals until they extinguished them- that's what the ritual demands: that the participants dance on the coals until they are extinguished. That generally takes two to three hours.

The two, just do not compare. One is for laughs between up and coming business management graduates, the other is for real, whatever that means, by people who would probably throw themselves in the fire proper, if they thought their icons told them so. Plus the music that accompanies the anastenaria, played by members of the cult, is a fine example of traditional Thraciot music and it's worth a listen anyway.

So I think a distinction is needed to be made between the two practices: firewalking for religious purposes and "firewalking" lite, for team-play enhancement (with a reference, perhaps, that the same can be achieved by playing paintball, for example)

Second, the scientific explanation presented needs citation. Who came up with it and have they tried it out in practice to see if it works?

I repeat: I admit I am taken with the Anastenaria but I don't believe it's the saints who make it possible (or Dionysus, or the Ancestors, or whoever). But I want to know and that explanation doesn't cover me. I want more than weekend skeptisism of hobby scientists, please. Preferrably from someone who has actually watched firewalking ceremonies and experimented with whatever explanation they came up with. And by experimented I mean firewalked themselves.

If it's so easy to explain how firewalking works and why everyone can do it, a man of reason could do it for Science, armed with the knowledge that the Laws of Physics would not let him be harmed.

(sorry for the sarcasm)

Second, B. In particular, this:

"Firewalkers do not spend very much time on the coals, and they keep moving (one second per foot before lifting is a conservative estimate)"

does not apply to what I know of the anastenaria. As I said above, they stay on the coals for two to three hours. They don't "keep moving"; rather, they keep their feet moving, which is not the same- "they keep moving" applies better to crossing the bed with fast bounds. I think it's not just the manager people who do the latter. The text in the parentheses is fine.

Three

"This is ipso facto substantiated by the fact that anyone can perform firewalking without any 'mind over matter' preparation."

Yes and no. You can "firewalk" fine if you have someone around to make sure you don't do anything stupid. But you can't firewalk proper without some kind of preparation, at least the kind that a tight-rope walker needs before performing. I don't know about "mind over matter" stuff- that's oriental malarky :P

And sorry for the extent of the comment.Ye Goblyn Queenne 07:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

"Application" sounds like it's some kind of lotion you put on. Can we find a better title for that section, like "Practice"?

"!Kung Bushmen of the Kalahari desert have firewalked since their tribal beginnings. The !Kung use fire in their powerful healing ceremonies"

"powerful healing ceremonies" Powerful, in what way?

"since their tribal beginnings." which was when?

"as a rite of purification, healing, initiation and transcendence, which have been threads in the cultural tapestry of our planet. "

I deplore the tone of that entry. Bleagh.

All the third paragraph needs citations, lots of them.

Ye Goblyn Queenne 07:57, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

By "the third paragraph", do you mean the explanation? The next paragraph is "External links and references" which contains sources for the explanation. --Hob Gadling 12:29, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tone?

What's wrong with the tone of the article, Silence? I can't find anything inappropriate. --Hob Gadling 12:29, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mind In Matter link

"As soon as he said this, a number of people from our staff walked on the grill without harm."

Here is another site talking about this incident: [1] You should not take Burkan's words at face value.

Another one: [2]. There Pat Linse says:

"I think it would be pretty big news to Dr. Leikind to find out that Tolly Burkan is claiming that several staff people walked on a glowing hot metal grill with their bare feet an were not burned! Had that really happened I think Leikind, considering his background in plasma physics, would have noticed the anomoly and would by now have a Nobel Prize for describing an entire new branch of physics!" --Hob Gadling 16:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think this article is unbalanced and should examine some of the paranormal explanations and refutations of the conservative scientific crowd. I was at a Tony Robbins seminar recently and witnessed approximately 3000 people walk on coals. A small number were burned and could barely walk the next day. Tony Robbins also claimed in the seminar that he was burned once when he finished a walk and still had some coals stuck to his feet. He claims he allowed his energy to lower because he thought the walk was over and his feet instantly began burning. He also claimed that he once put a metal grill across the coals, had it fired red hot and thousands of people passed over it, so that their footprints were implanted into the metal, which seriously argues against the thermal insulating properties of coal.

Also, a quasi religious belief in the scientific method could potentially take the place of spiritual belief, giving the feeling of certainty and power that appears to protect the walkers.