Template talk:Final occupants of the Führerbunker

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I originally had a "killed" section because of Fegelein, but knocked him into "uncertain" and the Goebbels children in with their parents, to save room, because the template is still too tall. I'll rename to "killed themselves" though, to better encompass the Goebbels children Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 01:42, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

You seriously distort the truth, it is like saying that a suicide bomber and their victims together killed themselves.--Patrick 09:33, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Other than the fact a suicide bomber doesn't have full legal guardianship of their victims, and there are not usually conflicting reports whether or not the victims were aware and agreed to the suicide pact. Chances are, they didn't, but Joseph does say in his final testament that the children know of this, and agree with the decision. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 17:25, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Legal guardianship is not relevant for distinguishing between suicide and murder. If there are theories about the children agreeing, you should mention that e.g. in Magda_Goebbels#Murder_and_suicide, currently the template contradicts that section.--Patrick 23:53, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Apart from whether it is true, "My wife and my children agree with this refusal." (of Joseph to leave Berlin) does not imply at all that the children agreed to be killed.--Patrick 02:26, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I left it in Category:Accuracy Disputes, but you don't take disputes *inside* the template frame, tsk, that just messes up all the other articles the template appears in. Jonestown is still called a mass suicide, even though half the people there were murdered, but because like a suicide bombing, the killer and others were also committing suicide (and not just to escape judgment for their killing the others, unlike Columbine), it's largely seen as "The people of Jonestown killed themselves". I admit it's not 100% accurate to say the Goebbels family killed themselves, but people understand what is meant, and it allows us to keep a semi-reasonable template size. (Otherwise we'd likely need, as I said, Fegelein to have his own "Summarily executed" clause, and a "May have fled to Antarctica" clause for Hitler. Walther Hewel definitely killed himself on May 2nd, but I've yet to find with any certainty that was inside the bunker, and not perhaps just after fleeing. The template is inperfect in nature, but allowing pettiness and an urge to "Remember the Goebbels Six!" is just going to further muddy things unfortunately. I have no personal feelings for the Goebbels children, beyond the fact I spent more than a week compiling what little information and few images exist of them, but I definitely feel that the belong in the same category as their parents Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 19:21, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

It is absurd to say that the distinction between murder and suicide is a petty detail.--Patrick 00:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't list them as suicides, it lists them under "Killed themselves". Joseph Goebbels didn't kill himself, somebody else did. The Goebbels children were killed by their mother, as part of a "last-minute avoiding the Soviets pact" deal that history will likely never fully understand. If the children had been gunned down by a rogue sentry, or had Soviets slit their throats, then yes they'd definitely be remembered differently. But they were killed by their mother, who then immediately killed herself. That means "The Goebbels family killed itself". Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 00:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Being killed at one's request may loosely be considered to be in the category of killing oneself, but that does not seem applicable for the children. In spite of a killer's possible good intentions, being killed without consent is still very different from killing oneself.--Patrick 02:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Alright, so if you were to hypothetically "deal with the fact they're being listed right after their parents", would you be able to offer a better heading than "Killed themselves" for that section? I originally had "Commit suicide", but I agreed with you that was less-than-ideal and changed it to "Killed themselves". Do you have a better suggestino for a name? Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 04:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

As I said, being killed without consent is very different from killing oneself, so putting them in the same category would mean that you create a very broad category like "died", or an odd category like "died, not by enemy troops". They can be listed right after their parents if the parents are put at the end of one category, and the children in the next category.--Patrick 09:36, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

It seems that in order to make it work at all, another category would have to be added, likely with a rather unwieldy name, like "victims of suicide pact" or somesuch. Even with a simpler name the template seems to be getting unnecessarily complicated, as presumably anyone interested in the specifics of a person's death can look in the relevant section of the article on that person. IMO, it would be better just to present a new category like "Died before Soviet arrival", and if really considered important, a "Suicides" category for the few for whom death was indisputably by suicide. siafu 18:08, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

"Died before Soviet arrival" is half-decent, "Bodies found by Soviets" leaves Bormann, Fegelin and others a bit iffy, "Killed" would allow us to include Fegelin, but sounds a bit 'off' for Hitler and such. Seems very much like a "Damned if we do, damned if we don't" situation. The children should definitely be listed with their parents imho, but it's awkward to find a category name that encompasses "Killed themself" "Were killed by their parents" "Summarily executed" and everything else Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 22:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Responses to RfC 2 Soviet arrival? 3 Was there a consensus on the Goebbels children? 4 Rattenhuber

[edit] Responses to RfC

There's nothing preventing the use the formulation "Died" in the template, is there? I don't think the readers are that picky about it. However, "killed themselves" may be seen as kinda a weasel term; just think about it: "Joseph Goebbels, Magda and their children killed themselves". Now, you wouldn't see that in a newspaper, would you...

But it's not that big a'deal....

Fred-Chess 22:21, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

• How about "Murdered"? Joseph and Magda go into "killed themselves" category and "The Goebbals' Children" (as a group) go into the Murdered category? Herostratus 08:04, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soviet arrival?

As is mentioned already, the template is a little imprecise. The only person who were actually present in the bunker when the soviets arrived was Hentschel, according to this page. Do you think it'd be a good idea to split May 2 into "Left May 2" including Misch, Flegel and Haase and "Remained until Soviets arrived May 2" including only Hentschel? Or is the statement in the The Bunker page simply incorrect? I know Misch left shortly before the Russians arrived. I don't know about Flegel. IIRC Der Untergang said that Haase remained, but I may be mistaken, and so may the film be. Just an idea.... --Ojan 20:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I think The Bunker is simply incorrect in that assertion, there was a handful of people when the Soviets entered, which definitely included Flegel since she later talked about the Soviets entering first, then once confirming it was just aides, nurses, etc, telling them to stay down there for a few hours while they went back aboveground and finished fighting, then came back down to process them. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 22:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Was there a consensus on the Goebbels children?

I just saw this page after I edited the template to list the Goebbels children as "murdered". Oops. Was there a consensus? Everything I've ever seen and read says that the children were murdered by their mother. They were first given morphine, then cyanide.

I really don't see how underage children could give meaningful consent to a suicide pact. After all, the youngest was only 4 years old. Karn 09:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

If I might put in my pfennig's worth, "murder" is a legal term. A homicide is only a murder when a court finds it to be so. That Magda Goebbels killed her children is a statement of fact. That a court would have convicted her of murdering them can only be an opinion. So I suggest changing "murdered" to "killed." Adam 14:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rattenhuber

The recent book Hitler's Death, a compilation from the Soviet archives, gives Rattenhuber's name as Hans, not Johann. Does anyone know more about this? Adam 14:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)