Talk:Fighting in ice hockey

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Contents 1 Merge? 2 contradictions 3 On-ice deaths from fighting 4 Dubious information 5 Needs section on History

[edit] Merge?

Two articles about the same thing. Merge --Kerowyn 09:20, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. Two articles about different things. One concerns a condoned, if penalized, aspect of the sport, the other about an illegal and uncondoned aspect. RGTraynor 11:49, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I concur with RGTraynor. Violence is one thing: see, for example, strikes to the head with a hockey stick, or slashes to the face, or boarding with intent to injure, and so forth. Fighting is another: it is rare that a player gets more than a bloody nose or some minor facial cuts from a fight. Minor injuries compared to the outcomes of some of the "violence" aspects above. Battlemonk 16:32, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

But "fighting" and "violence" are synonyms. Just because one results in less injuries doesn't make it a different animal altogether. I think the average user looking for information on fighting in the sport is going to be interested in both violence, as in serious deliberate attacks, and fighting, as in a couple of players throw down gloves and toss a few punches, so why not put them in the same article? Kerowyn 03:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Because they are two separate things, as the average hockey fan knows; you could just as readily decide that "offense" and "violation" are the same thing in hockey because they are likewise synonyms. I appreciate that you're trying to clean up tags Wikiwide, but in the ten months since the tags were posted, out of the several dozen participants in the Ice Hockey Wikiproject, not one has spoken in favor of any such merge, let alone seek any manner of consensus for it. The tags are best cleaned by removing them. RGTraynor 06:44, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I feel that these pages are better left separate. It makes no sense to merge them because violence in hockey is different than fighting in hockey. While they are somewhat related, there are enough differences to warrant separate articles. Masterhatch 09:29, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what difference there is. We're quibbling with semantics here. I'm not trying to be simplistic, I'm trying to be sensible. I merged the article initially because no one cared enough to object. I think violence on the ice is the same whether it's condoned or not and it makes sense to address it all in one place. Kerowyn 22:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Your opinion has been noted, and I think we can all agree that if you bring a consensus around to said opinion, a merger is appropriate. RGTraynor 18:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, the consensus seems to be to leave the articles unmerged. I don't agree, but that's how it goes. Kerowyn 09:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Thus is democracy. Battlemonk 21:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Ain't it grand. I voted for Kerry, too. =) --Kerowyn 23:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. I would have, but wasn't old enough to. By a month and a week. Battlemonk 02:17, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] contradictions

This article seems contradictory, e.g.: "Although fighting is tolerated in men's hockey, the combatants involved are always issued penalties, and may be ejected."

Either fighting is allowed, or it is not. In the NHL and all other leagues of hockey, teams and players are penalized for fighting, therefore, it is not allowed. If the author feels the penalties are not sufficient deterrents, then the author should indicate so; however, that would be editorializing than reporting factual information.

---

He probably could have gone into more detail, but it's difficult to explain the special status fighting has in hockey. Fighting can't be said (by the dictionary definition) to be allowed in the NHL, but it is most definitely not prohibited. If the NHL Commissioner wanted all hockey fighting to stop, he'd simply announce that fighting was banned and the next guys who did it would be treated the same way as players in any other sport who started throwing blows mid-game (i.e- immediate explusion, huge fines, lengthy suspensions and probably criminal charges). There are several European hockey leagues in which fighting is banned, and they implement this type of system. But instead, in most leagues, the fighters get a brief stay off-ice, neither's team is disadvantaged in manpower, and the whole thing is usually forgotten before the game's even over. Regardless of how many fights there are in a season, the penalties are never modified or increased for fair fights that don't result in injury. The attitude is more like "Well, sure there's rules against it, but the fans love it, it's been around for a long time, and it's not a big deal. What's the harm?"--Bullzeye 7 July 2005 17:34 (UTC)

Pretty much, and it's specious to argue otherwise. North American professional ice hockey is the only major professional sport not to penalize in-game fights with lengthy suspensions and hefty fines. It is no more "outlawed" in the NHL, the minor and junior leagues than offsides or icing is. RGTraynor 12:54, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore, to add to the "tolerated but not allowed" status (or what have you), there is the fact that there exists the entirety of Rule 56: Fisticuffs of the NHL rules. There's not just the first paragraph, which says: if you fight, these are the penalties. There are penalties for not having the sweater tied down properly. If you take off your sweater before fighting, you get a penalty. The fact that there are rules governing incidental parts of fighting signals that it is allowed. Battlemonk 07:47, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On-ice deaths from fighting

Xtopher asserts there has been on-ice deaths from fighting in ice hockey. Cites, please? RGTraynor 09:34, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

Sudden Death in Young Athletes Maron N Engl J Med 2003;349:1064-1075.

There is an entire section on fighting related deaths in hockey. Just because it didn't happen in the NHL doesn't mean it doesn't count.

Vladimir Korzhenko - CSKA forward: died in a hospital shortly after a punch during a training

Viktor Yakushev - 64(I know a bit old but still valid), died after receiving fatal blows in a hockey fight in Moscow.

one is enough, it is late for me to be backing this up, there have also been a couple cases in the NHL, but they weren't direct causes of a fight, some a fight that occured after a game, others from stick to head contact during a braw, i could go on, but it is late

User:Xtopher 11:174, 11 October 2005 (MDT)

Are you kidding? A death in a training camp scuffle, and a death from a geezer in an oldtimers' league? That's like claiming that on-field deaths are common in football because there's about a fatality or two a year in all of high school football. Come up with some on-ice fighting deaths in a professional, college or major junior game. RGTraynor 14:48, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

And in the Nice Try category ... I did some research on those two names. That Korzhenko line is a cut and paste from a single site (that's mirrored in one other spot) and the very same page says that Yakushev died from injuries suffered in a street fight, not during a hockey game. RGTraynor 14:55, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

So one death isn't good enough to say that deaths have occured, well, I am sure that the families of those who died from fights will agree with you, one death is never enough to say that "deaths have occured" don't go changing the definition. as for the copy and paste, had I known that I wouldn't have trusted my book source, I just figured that you would want a place you could go to, because I doubt that you are going to go get the book I cited, as a matter of fact I am sure that your local library will have it available, you can look up the number of deaths, once I have time I will complete a more comprehensive list. "deaths have come from fights on the ice" is what I added not deaths are common. Now I respect your want for an acurate article, but don't go changing the definition, please. Xtopher 16:43, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

No, you're right: one possible death -- that cut and paste isn't even a complete sentence -- isn't good enough. And how much the alleged families hurt might be suitable for a forum or bulletin board where emotional arguments are likely to sway debates (and at this point "alleged" is very much the case; unfortunately, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a public pressure forum. As far as your "book" goes, that cite is from a New England Journal of Medicine article readily obtainable at my (quite excellent and large) local library. The only hockey related deaths even mentioned in that article come from being hit with hockey pucks at youth games, and do so without names. That's two bits now of outright misrepresentation. I suggest you obtain thoroughly researched and verifiable facts before proceeding. RGTraynor 19:30, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious information

What's with the "fighting techniques" section? The information that it contains does not seem worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia. I've been playing hockey for the better part of 16 years now, and "jerseying" was never a common practice, nor were fights "over" when one player went down. In general, gloves are sometimes dropped, but it is much less common for helmets to come off.Isopropyl

Also, have there been any examples of arranged fights before games? I would like to recommend that a source be found to back this up, or else the comment will be removed.Isopropyl

[edit] Needs section on History

History of fighting in hockey and in the NHL.