Talk:Fidesz – Hungarian Civic Union

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

Isn't the building in "Szentkirályi u. 18." their new office building? See Google Adam78 23:20, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Liberal conservative

FIDESZ-MPP = Liberal Conservative? My foot! Nationalists...without a doubt.Lightning-Feather 02:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, try to tell a Fidesz supporter that the party is liberal conservative. Wait for the response. Then reconsider this classification. Also, mind recent proposals in the campaign of extending the budget, etc. --Sicboy 00:46, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but if they're a conservative party, then why they call the Christian Democrat and conservative MIÉP and JOBBIK far-right?

Because they are a conservative party and MIÉP-Jobbik is far-right. I do not understand the contradiction

Why was Orbán Viktor the vice president of the Liberal International?

Because he was the vice president of the Liberal International. Now he is vice president, or anything of the EPP (European conservative alliance)

Why they never really accepted that they're a conservative party, whilst every other party decided its political position?

Huh!?

Why they sweared the Christian people earlier in the parliament?

????

Why they messed up the centre-right FKGP?

FKGP, well it was a strange party, with a clown as president, now a) FKGP messed up by itself, b) Fidesz helped FKGP to commit suicide, but why is this an argument for Fidesz being liberal!?

Why they "speak conservative and do liberal"? Why? Why? Why?

I think they speak conservative/social and do conservative/social. They "did liberal" in 1999 the last time. --Sicboy 01:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I see you are Fidesz supporter, I'm a Third Way supporter. You'll not agree with me, I'll not agree with you. Always that old right-wing argue. I give up, and I accept that this is the Wiki-objectiveness. I'm just a Guest. Goodbye, my brother!

I'm not a supporter of anyone, please read my words again, I believe I am objective. I think that nobody thinks Fidesz is liberal in Hungary, nor fideszians, nor mszpians, nor supporters of the Two-Tailed Dog Party. And that is a reason. Good night --Sicboy 13:40, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it's better to characterize the rhetoric of the party as increasingly nationalist and populist. The amount of room to maneuver politically in a Hungary within the EU is limited, and the policies of the MSZP-SZDSZ coalition have consistantly included substantial free-market reforms and privitisation, so that a clear left-right, or socialized vs. market orientation division is not to be found between the parties or possible coalitions. Indeed, a great deal of FIDESZ's campaigning against the MSZP-SZDSZ has been against further privitasition of "peoples' property" and against a "cosmopolitan" (non-nationalist) world view.

[edit] Fidesz

To the author: The last sentence doesn't make sense. I suggest "In 2005 FIDESZ and the KDNP formed a coalition." or something like that. To Sicboy: this is not a campaign site. Let cool heads prevail. /And NPOW/

milfor

sure about NPOV, but Fidesz is neither thought to be liberal, nor do they call themselves that. They are now members in the European People's Party etc. Fidesz supporters don't think they are liberal, and opponents don't think that either. They can be classified as christian-democratic, with attention to social and national issues, or sth like that. About the last sentence: the list running on the 2006 elections will be called "Fidesz-KDNP", that means, they count as election alliance (thus needing the 10% margin, etc.), this is a formal issue. --Sicboy 22:57, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date for the conservative turn

It was written in the article:

In 1993 Fidesz realigned its political position into a conservative line where it is now,

You corrected:

After its poor result in the 1994 election, Fidesz started to realign its political position towards a conservative line, where it is now.

According to the history of Fidesz on its website, the conservative turn began not in 1994, but as early as in 1992. Here's a sentence from the text:

On a FIDESZ rally held in October (*), Viktor Orbán stated that the country may only be managed in a secure manner by a government made up of the forces of the civic centre.

(*): it turns out from the next sentence that the October of 1992 is meant.

So I'll revert this change of yours, unless you show me I'm wrong.

Adam78 20:10, 9 February 2006 (UTC)</nowiki>

I think the 1994 election results are relevant, because this was the shock that made the transformation of the party possible. You are right that there was a faction in Fidesz which had always argued for a more neutral stance between the Liberals and the Conservatives. However, this faction was not dominant until after the 1994 elections. --Zyzzyva 13:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Adam, you are wrong. When Orbán talked about the civic center (polgári középerők) in 1992, he meant the liberal alliance of SZDSZ, Fidesz, Party of Entrepreneurs and the Agrarian Alliance. See this video, available from hvg.hu.

Cooperation with the center-right MDF was completely out of the question until the SZDSZ's 'betrayal' (ie, coalition with the Socialists) after the 1994 election; this is clear from the other videos from 1994 featuring Orbán, on the same site. The word 'civic' only got redefined (by Orbán) to mean 'on the political right' much later.

Please read the [quotes from Orbán between 1990 and 1994] collected by József Debreczeni, including the longer context of your "polgári középerők" quote. He (and Fidesz) was clearly liberal, with no hint of conservatism until the second half of 1994.

Zsebenci Klopédia 18:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] nationalist

The FIDESZ-MPP are nationalists, and very likely ultra-nationalists. Why? First of all, a number of mass media articles and other coverage, both domestic (Hungarian) and foreign, have concluded, based on their actions, statements, rallies, and their own admission, that they are nationalists or ultra-nationalists. Something I witnessed in Budapest during the elections in 2002: FIDESZ-MPSZ (the part after the hyphen has changed over and over) told their voters, most of whom do not deny being nationalists, to wear the national colors pin, or cocard, and carry Hungarian flags during the elections, at all times if possible, to show that they are true, patriotic Hungarians, unlike the MSZP and their junior SZDSZ, who, acccording to FIDESZ, are traitors of the nation!!! Of the total Hungarian voting population at least 50% of them favor MSZP, SZDSZ, and an assortium of other progressive parties or the relatively moderate MDF! In fact, Mrs. Ibolya David, head of the MDF (Magyar Demokrata Forum) broke up with Mr. Viktor Orban and have since been bitter rivals for the affections of the right-wing voters!!! Anyway, I will not put the term "nationalists" or "ultra-nationalists" myself, since I was the first to notice the ommission, but I strongly suggest it should be done for historic accuracy's sake. FIDESZ-MPP are more like Austrian Jorg Haider's Freedom Party than Wolfgang Schussel's Conservative Party. Ultimately anyone concerned can contact Amnesty International or French Conservative party (Chirac will no longer take Orban's calls...wonder why...and Angela Merkel of Germany would not come to Hungary to show up for Viktor during the 2006 Spring elections...hmmm...).Lightning-Feather 02:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Stop giving this fake information to the article. clear statement can be read here, from the source abt this: fidesz tries to convince the nationalist also to vote to them, instead of MIÉP, to win. I wonder, how many other sources could be adulterated.

I ask for a check on User:Tankred's all sources because of possible adulteration. --195.56.242.11 23:56, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The article states that Fidesz "emerged as the core of integrated right conservative nationalist forces"; "the FIDESZ partly incorporated the Antall cult of inter-war nostalgia and what the HDF stood for in their time and reawakened Hungarian nationalism in a somewhat extreme form which eventually backfired in 2002", "The FIDESZ-CP also drifted progressively to more radical nationalist policies rebuilding past images and symbolism, tapping successfully the nationalist feelings". I have recently added two other sources. So, there are now three articles published in the leading English-speaking academic journals. Anyone can check them. The are all very explicit: Fidesz is a nationalist party and it is not an insult. It is just a correct description by political scientists. Tankred 00:53, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

BBC article online:

  • His Young Democrats were founded in 1988 by a small group of dissident students. Since then, Orban's politics have moved from youthful radicalism, through free-market liberalism, to centre-right nationalism. [1]

-- nyenyec ☎ 15:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

People who edit here should check out the Anarchism in Hungary article. I don't think any of the organizations listed there as being anarchist are actually anarcchist at all. i don't know anything about Hungarian politics but reading the pages and descriptions of those organizations does not lead to the conclusion that they are anarchist. Blockader 15:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The current text says:

  • This statement has been challenged[citation needed] by the party, as the views of MIÉP are more extreme.[1][2][3] However, the presence of the extremist MIÉP in the Hungarian party system does not necessarily preclude nationalism of other political parties.

However, none of the sources support the statement that Fidesz has challenged the assertion that it's a nationalistic. The sources that have been provided support the statement that MIÉP is an extreme right wing party but this is an ignoratio elenchi it has nothing to do with FIDESZ being nationalistic or not. -- nyenyec ☎ 22:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Then how to prove something that is not existing? --VinceB 10:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree with Nyenyec. That section of the article was added by VinceB in order to justify his removal of the description of the party as nationalist from the lead. I have just changed the text, so it does not contradict the sources that it cites. Tankred 01:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Easy to prove. I just gave researches of human rights organisations and political scientists dealing with this case. 6 yet. And if go to google, you'll get an additional 100 very-very reliable source. None of them mentions it as nationalist.

PS:I am more than happy, to see that any facts can be overwritten by jourlanists. --VinceB 09:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bogus references: "MIÉP is the only nationalist party in Hungary"

The current text says:

  • Fidesz is often described as a nationalist party not only by its political opponents,[2] but also by some political scientists,[3][4] and the mainstream media. This statement has been challenged by many research organisations, and political scientists by stating that MIÉP is the only nationalist party in Hungary
  • Statement1: many research organisations challenged the statement that Fidesz is a nantionalist party.

Which are these organisations and political scientists exactly? I didn't find any in the provided references.

  • Statement2: many research organisations and political scientists stated the MIÉP is the only nationalist party in Hungary.

(Of course, even VinceB knows that this is nonsense, even if he doesn't agree with BBC and others that Fidesz is a nationalist party, I'm sure he has heard about Jobbik).

But I'm eager to see any sources that prove that MIÉP is the only nationalist party in Hungary. Remember: far right does not equal nationalist and there is such thing as a "centre right nationalist".

Also remember, that one party having attribute X does not imply that another party in the same country cannot have attribute X.

I'd like to ask a re-evaluation of the references and only give a reference when it actually supports the assertion in the preceding sentence.

Thanks, nyenyec ☎ 01:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You may know, that it is a 1000 times harder to prove something that does not exist. These just reasearches about nationalism in Hungary. And fidesz is not mentioned amongst them. This is what these references are for. Should I write this in it?

Maybe I should (and would) search for better sources. Be patient, I'm not very frequently on enwiki. --VinceB 16:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually you wrote that the statement has been challenged. It's easy to provide a source for that, just quote the political scientists and research organisations that challenged the statement.
It's also easy to provide a reference for your other assertion, that MIEP is the only nationalist party in Hungary. Just link to the source that said this.
Meanwhile, I removed these unsourced statements (none of the sources actually support the assertions in the text). See below.
-- nyenyec ☎ 18:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

This statement has been challenged by many research organisations, and political scientists by stating that MIÉP is the only nationalist party in Hungary.[4][5][6][7][8][9] However, the presence of the extremist MIÉP in the Hungarian party system does not necessarily preclude nationalism of other political parties.[citation needed]

  1. ^ Extremism in Europe
  2. ^ Institute of Race Relations. "The new centre-Right coalition government, led by the Fidesz party, has refused to except any support from the extreme-Right Hungarian Justice and Life Party"
  3. ^ Another article from IRR stating Fidesz as centre-right party, and MIÉP as nationalist/far-right
  4. ^ Extremism in Europe
  5. ^ Institute of Race Relations. "The new centre-Right coalition government, led by the Fidesz party, has refused to except any support from the extreme-Right Hungarian Justice and Life Party"
  6. ^ Another article from IRR stating Fidesz as centre-right party, and MIÉP as nationalist/far-right
  7. ^ http://www.globalism-nationalism.org/research/research.html
  8. ^ [mek.oszk.hu/03700/03797/03797.doc Péter Tibor Nagy: The social and political history of Hungarian education]
  9. ^ Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty


Just read: http://www.miep.hu - no need to go deeper in the page, it is on the front page, in the essay. Also, simply read hu:Jobbik, then answer the question: MIÉP and Jobbik got together, and they both look at Fidesz as a liberal rooted conservative opponent. Thus I'm sure you (and Tankred also) are mixing the patriotism with the nationalism, not knowing the difference between these. This is a common mistake amongst all central-european scientists, and people simply because the local history of the 20th century, patriotism did not became an established idea here/there. Not like in the US. I guess you won't call (ultra-)nationalist them, just because its full of US flags, and they want their county the best, even by bombing others... --VinceB 08:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I would like to illustrate the flaws in you argument by a similar example from a neighboring country. In Slovakia there is an extreme nationalist political party called Slovenska Ludova Strana. For them, SNS is just a patriotic, not a nationalist party. And they even think that SNS is not patriotic enough, that SNS is in fact betraying the interests of the Slovaks. For the rest of the world, both SLS and SNS are nationalist parties, despite their different degree of nationalism. What do I mean by this anecdote? Wikipedia should use scientific references, not references to what extremists believe in. Political scientists classify political parties only after a careful analysis of their manifestos, program, and rhetoric. They take the political attitudes and behavior of the party's elite and voters into account. If they just made up their findings, their articles would be rejected by the peer-reviewed journals. I am sorry to say that your attempts to challenge the peer-reviewed scientific journals by quotations of extremist politicians somewhat reminds me of the evolution vs. creationism debate. We all know the result of this debate on Wikipedia. Tankred 16:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The only problem with your analogy is that this article is abt the fidesz, not the MIÉP/Jobbik/such parties, so all, what you sad above, does not stand. Why? The thing, that clearly proves the references above, with no doubt, is what is SNS's hungarian equivalent :DD Thus, my point of view was verified again, you mix the realities with some off-colour authors' visions. I'm not saying that it is purposed, since you proved several times that it's coming from not knowing things, and/or believing that those off-colour authors' statements are stands the probe of verification. Thus creationism (sic!) is your and your proved agressive vandal friend's - whom you always share the same opinion(s) (Juro) - personal privilege. This was another sneaky personal attack from you. --VinceB 19:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Can we cut the ad hominems please?
VinceB, I think you're confusing far right with nationalist. At least the sentence that you added which is still in the current text suggests that:
Political scientists and mainstream media also describe Fidesz as a nationalist party.[6][7][8][9] In the same time, Fidesz has refused cooperation with the extremist MIÉP,[10] which is the main far-right party in Hungary.[11]
You can be nationalist without being far right. Just do a Google search for "moderate nationalist", or "centre right nationalist".
-- nyenyec ☎ 21:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Calling the Fidesz nationalist is the same, as calling the MSZP communist. Since I'm a communications expert, I show how this goes: Agenda-setting theory, Cultivation theory, Elaboration likelihood model, Social constructionism, Two-step flow of communication or Hypodermic needle model. Maybe you'll be intrested to read the Knowledge gap hypothesis also. In one word: its as a big lie, as calling the MSZP communist. Don't be neglect, since 1998 politics does not exist in Hungary, just communication experts, such as Róbert Braun [2] SZDSZ, András Wermer [3] (kiadványok->politikai elemzések->fidesz 1988-1998) now Péter Szijjártó Fidesz, and Stanley Greenberg's company, Democracy Corps for MSZP. No wonder wich party won the elections. Politics teaches you to don't think just vote. I ask you to think a bit, and don't eat whatever they put on the table for you. It could be (and 9/10 times it is)recycled food, and the remaining 1/10 times simple bulls**t. Regards --VinceB 02:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

"Opinions are like assholes: everybody's got one" :)
I certainly respect your personal opinion, but several sources including the BBC, do describe Fidesz as a nationalist party. This is mentioned in the article, since it is a fact and is supported by multiple sources. I'm sorry to say that your personal opinion doesn't carry the same weight until you find some sources that support your assertions. See: WP:NOR. -- nyenyec ☎ 07:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you agree with my last change? [4] since BBC is the only one, wich is not local or from the region. --VinceB 16:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, you added something, for which you have provided no source, unless Racz, Batori and Todosijevic are the political opponents of Fidesz. I guess you don't suggest that the BBC is.
Even if you do provide sources where its political opponents (not outsiders) do describe it as nationalist, it's hard to support the statement, that it's mainly political opponents. -- nyenyec ☎ 22:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Nyenyec, you didn't finish that saying. :) In its full form it says: Opinions are like assholes. Everybody's got one, but no one wants to explore anyone else's. :) Seriously now, I think the problem here is simply that, everyone who uses the word "nationalist" means something different by it. As regards Fidesz, are they the kind of far-right, anti-foreigner, ultraconservative "nationalists" like MIEP and SNS? No, that should be fairly obvious. Fidesz definitely has some obnoxious allies but they are not far-right. Rather, they are mainstream-conservative, centre-right, "patriotic" types. We should very carefully define (in the article!) troublesome and easily misunderstood words like "nationalism". K. Lastochka 03:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Short answer: I, think that you too, just as VinceB before you fall into the trap of confusing nationalist with far right. I need to write this down a again: there is such a thing as centre-right nationalist.
Longer answer: Actually, the situation with the ideology of Fidesz is even more complicated then you describe. They are not far-right like MIÉP and Jobbik, but since they need the votes from the supporters of those other parties they do heavily use nationalistic rhetoric, symbolism and appeal to nationalist emotions quite a lot (especially considering where they come from: in the early 90's this was the exact rhetoric from Antall's MDF that Fidesz clearly rejected).
Another related issue is that unlike most centre-right parties in Western Europe, Fidesz refuses to distance themselves from the far right, since they do need their votes (contrary what the current article text says, but I don't have the time to look for English references atm).
To further complicate clear labeling of their ideology, their economic program is not conservative at all, it's certainly further left from that of MSZP, which supposed to be the "socialist" party (Fidesz promised higher government spending in their campaing, they are against further privatization, use anti-big-capital and protectionist rhetoric, against cutting almost any government sponsored welfare programs and benefits etc.).
But I do agree that instead of trying to find the best fitting labels the "Ideology" section should talk about these things in more detail.
-- nyenyec ☎ 00:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I made a mess of my own point! :( I was trying to say that to some people, "nationalist" does mean "far right", but to others it means "patriotic". I got myself all mixed up and made a very unclear point. I should learn to speak English better (which is pretty pathetic since it's my native language.) All I was trying to say was we should be very clear what exactly we mean by "nationalist", otherwise it runs the risk of being misunderstood. And I do know very well that there are centre-right and centrist nationalists--I'm a bit of a centrist nationalist myself, with some liberal tendencies. :)

I hereby resolve to carefully write and then carefully proofread what I post to avoid more instances of making the exact opposite point of what I wanted to! :) K. Lastochka 03:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Nationalist" in English and Hungarian

I guess one could mention that the party itself doesn't use the term "nationalist" when describing its own ideology.

Side note: IMHO this is not because it's not a nationalist party, it is certainly keen to use nationalist rhetoric [5] and symbols. But in Hungary the direct translation of nationalist ("nacionalista") became a swear word in the past 50 years, like "liberal" did in the US and it is never used to describe one's own views any more. But it doesn't have the same negative connotations in English, where it is a much more neutral term. In Hungarian the terms "nemzeti érzelmű", "nemzeti erők", "nemzeti oldal" have been invented to get around the dreaded "nacionalista", but they mean the same thing (just like "progressive" replaced "liberal" in the US). -- nyenyec ☎ 22:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem with this is that this term simply does not fit for this party. I'd rather say, that the negative campaigning spread outside of Hungary also. Of course I agree that BBC is a non political opponent, but the other three are. So that's 3:1 for the short term "by it's political opponents, and some journals".

For ex Financial Times would consider fidesz as nationalist also, since it's a left-wing newspaper, but Le Pen would call it other, since it's a right wing journal. A journalist's statement in an article isn't enough. And as I mentioned in a sarcastic way, I'm not happy, that journalist can owerwrite whatever they like to. I'm sure, you'll be able to find enough better refs, from pol. experts. --Vince hey, yo! :-) 01:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Peer-reviewed academic journals are considered authoritative resources in every discipline, including political science. There is no place for original research or POV (User:VinceB: "this term simply does not fit for this party") in Wikipedia. I can hardly imagine more objective and professional references than the Party Politics journal and BBC. Tankred 17:34, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


VinceB again, we're contrasting your opinions with the cited references, which is not the way the discussion should work. You should cite reliable source supporting your point or somehow prove that the sources provided are not reliable.
To put it bluntly: your personal opinion doesn't count unless you support it with reliable references.
Now we're drifting off-topic here but calling Financial Times "left wing" is, well strange, as is calling Jean-Marie Le Pen a "journal". I could swear that he was a person. :)
-- nyenyec ☎ 16:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../f/i/d/Talk%7EFidesz_%E2%80%93_Hungarian_Civic_Union_6a8a.html"