Talk:Fetal pain

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Contents 1 New entry 2 Do not merge 3 Talk 4 changes to first section 5 Source disputed 6 So called "Shock link" 7 It isn't a shock site 8 New study 9 Research 10 debate, controversy, all that

[edit] New entry

Cannot this be made into a proper entry and be linked to from the Abortion entry?

WikiSceptic 02:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

It has been done. Brisvegas 12:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Keep: This article is valid. Some people are just so narrow minded that they will try to get rid of anything that contridicts their Idiotology regardless of it's merit. Chooserr

• comment: as long as I have you here, please stop creating vandal templates for your own personal use, thank you--Aolanonawanabe 04:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Do not merge

This issue is too weighty to be merged into another article - it deserves some space of its own. Brisvegas 11:15, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• That's a nice discussion, now I think I'll put the merge tags back--Aolanonawanabe 12:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

This is not a "political epithet" - it's a controversial issue which cannot be summed up in two/three sentences. Brisvegas 12:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not an 'issue' at all, it's an article prtending to have medical content--Aolanonawanabe 12:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Regardless of our personal opinions, this article deserves to be on its own and not be swallowed up by a list. Brisvegas 12:48, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Reality isn't an opinion, and certianly not a personal one, this article should be swallowed up by a list, and quickly too, before somebody reads it and gets then impression that it has some sort of encylopdic value, it's a political buzzword, it should go to a list of political buzzwords--Aolanonawanabe 12:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay then, let's compromise - we'll add the term to the list but retain this article as a separate reference. If you feel it is little more than a buzzword, feel free to put this in the introduction - but in a NPOV way of course. The info about the research into this topic/buzzword/etc. deserves an article, and would be far too big to fit into the list. This article was expanded after advice from editors of the main Abortion article, when they felt that this section was getting too long. Brisvegas 12:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

• Stop putting the merge tag on. The very fact of you suggesting a merge to List of political epithets shows that you do not know what "epithet" means. You are being decidedly POV here as well. --Cyde Weys _talk^contribs 00:13, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Talk

So why is it POV, and why do you as one person feel the need to force your opinions upon others...No one else has made comments on this version being POV. So why not wait for others to reach a census? Chooserr 05:28, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] changes to first section

Giving an overview of the developmental issues involved here is useful. But I don't believe it is appropriate to paint the academic/medical side of this debate as pro-life versus pro-choice. I have removed statements like Academics who hold "pro-choice" points of view often estimate that a fetus can only feel pain during the third trimester... and acedemics who hold a pro-life point of view argue that the fetus is capable of feeling pain as early as 7 weeks... because they imply that those academics are letting their politics drive their research findings. Also, I removed unsupported statements like Most pro-life advocates believe... and Most pro-choice advocates believe... Advocates on both sides have a wide range of beliefs, so I think these statements are greatly oversimplified. If anyone has support for these findings, please cite it. FreplySpang (talk) 01:12, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I just found that part of this was a copyvio from [1], so I am going to reword. Copying whole sentences and paragraphs from other websites with only minor changes is not acceptable at Wikipedia. FreplySpang (talk) 01:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Can you quote what part was a copyright violation for I wrote the first paragraph on my own and thought it looked damn fine, and shouldn't have been changed. Chooserr 01:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

There, I changed it. The copyright violation wasn't by you, Chooserr, it was added by Brisvegas in this edit: [2]. From "Pain in an adult, child, newborn or late-term fetus..." to "... i.e. sometime after about 26 weeks into pregnancy." was lifted (with tiny changes) from [3]. I also changed your paragraph because it had a lot of redundancy with the following paragraphs. And it certainly did not look "damn fine" with its spelling and grammar errors. Also, after reading the given reference [4], I re-added a bit about the relationship between belief and research. FreplySpang (talk) 01:42, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Source disputed

Note that there is currently a dispute over whether religioustolerance.org is an acceptable source for Wikipedia articles. See Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org and its talk page. (There's also a dispute over the dispute, see Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org !) The dispute started as part of the larger dispute over BC/AD vs. BCE/CE.

Personally, I think that the religioustolerance.org piece provided a useful starting point for this article. It would be great if interested people could expand the article to use multiple sources, but I understand it takes time. FreplySpang (talk) 14:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

• Speaking of disputes over sources, he's now trying to add a shock-site with bady photoshoped pictures of fetuses, the virgin mary, and jesus, [5], as a 'source'--Aolanonawanabe 01:53, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] So called "Shock link"

That is pure and simple a miss representation of the facts that diagram clearly pertains to the subject matter of this article and shows what would cause the fetus to feel pain. Should we censor a diagram that pertains to the subject matter just because one user doesn't like it? I find the picture of an erection on the Penis page more offensive, and no one dares remove it because it "illustrates" what is happening. Chooserr 01:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

The photograph of an erection probably does not belong on the top-tier penis article. An illustration would be better, with photos at the main erection article, but I'll leave it to the regulars in the male anatomy articles to establish their own conventions. Here, the precedent is zero tolerance for sites containing shock pictures on the abortion-related articles. This image itself does not even pertain to the subject of fetal pain. It is a diagram of D&X, and, if it belongs anywhere, it belongs over there -- stretching it to fit is POV. -Kyd 01:37, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Also the diagram comes from a reputable source that gives illustrations to all sorts of things including the cardiovascular system, the reproductive system, and the nervous system. It also makes medical awareness posters so I think you'd be misplaced in calling it a shock site. Chooserr 01:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I feel that the image is relevant to the entire point which this article attempts to make. If it is 'shocking', so what? Quite frankly, this seems more like a difference of opinion between people rather than about the image in question. I have viewed hundreds of images made in the style of the one in question. As Chooserr pointed out, the places where one can view such images are most commonly found in medical practice offices. Heck, anyone who has been to a Body Worlds exhibit has seen more than enough human tissue to last a dozen lifetimes (sadly, I missed that traveling exhibit). How is the image in question any more shocking than the images we have in the articles for Body Worlds [6], penis [7], vagina [8], or even ectopic pregnancy [9]? Should we remove this image from the Body Worlds article here simply because it *might* be perceived as 'shocking'?

The answer, of course, is no. Censorship, in principle, is not the Wikipedia way. We edit and censor out material that is not relevant or otherwise inappropriate. Additionally, the image in question quite adequately provides a visual representation of what this article is describing. Whether fetal pain *exists* or not is not our place to question here, as there is evidence for and against it, and we are writing an encyclopædia, which *describes* rather than *prescribes* knowledge.

I challenge anyone concerned about this matter to adequately demonstrate that this image is any more shocking than hundreds more images on Wikipedia which show the parts of a human body, sliced or otherwise, as I cannot imagine any reason why the image should not be linked here.

→ P.MacUidhir (t) (c) 19:11, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I really don't know what else I have to say. KillerChihuahua and I said our bits a month ago. It's not so much about content as it is about context, and, in this case the image is more argumentative than informative. In keeping with NPOV, this sort of thing should be avoided. We created the "no shock links" guideline on the main abortion article as a way to thin out the external links section and seal a loophole to potential POV violations. The standard applies both ways, and, as such, the link to Women on Waves was removed. Such contents and links would be better suited to more specific articles. -Kyd 10:47, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] It isn't a shock site

Sorry I miss typed it in the rush to fix the unjust revert Chooserr 01:36, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't give a flip who put it there, it has no bearing on fetal pain whatsover. It isn't to a medical study on the developent of the nervous system, or anything else relevent. There is no reason to have it in an article titled "Fetal pain" because it isn't about fetal pain. KillerChihuahua^?!? 01:41, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

It has to do with fetal pain, and you did ask who put it there - don't ask if you don't want to know. Chooserr 01:44, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Argh, I answered this on both our talk pages, but here it is again:

Oh sheesh, my apologies. It was a rhetorical question... I didn't realize you were answering my question, because it was rhetorical, if that makes *any* sense. Thanks for the info, apologies again for not making sense. KillerChihuahua^?!? 01:49, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

See your talk page, Chooserr, for a longer explanation of my conduct as an editor. Thanks. -Kyd 02:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New study

There was a new study released on this topic [10]. Here are some points:

Summary points

• The neuroanatomical system for pain can be considered complete by

26 weeks’ gestation

• A developed neuroanatomical system is necessary but not sufficient

for pain experience

• Pain experience requires development of the brain but also requires

development of the mind to accommodate the subjectivity of pain

• Development of the mind occurs outside the womb through the

actions of the infant and mutual adjustment with primary caregivers

• The absence of pain in the fetus does not resolve the morality of

abortion but does argue against legal and clinical efforts to prevent such pain during an abortion

--Andrew c 04:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Research

I saw in your second paragraph you stated, "Some academics argue that it appears as early as seven weeks after conception". But I was wondering, in your research have you founds anyone who believed that the fetus feels pain even before seven weeks? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Beamboi2000 (talk • contribs) 01:00, 4 May 2006.

[edit] debate, controversy, all that

forgive me- I do grammatical deconstruction when I get this close to disinfo. it's a coping mechanism.

it's the subject of debate as a part of the controversy. 

ok, so less than 50 articles link here, so it's not super important, but all articles about contorversies are such bad places to get information. so is that what we settle for on 'pedia for controversial topics? we just accept the truth that the truth on these pages is gonn be fuzzy? I dunno. it's tough territory. I feel sorry for admins who end up having to sort this kind of stuff out.

while I'm sure there are non-abortion-related reasons (anti or pro) to understand fetal pain, there are few reasons money would find it's way to funding such research besides abortion-interest-money reasons. I find it weird that pro-choice persons would really go down this road cuz, eh. If this gets debated, I think prolifers win, slightly.

also- it mighta been prominent, relavant news but there's ad hominem stuff in here. (4th paragraph under fetal pain#Medical opinions) that should be removed unless there's a (gulp) source. CrackityKzz 05:09, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

andrew c- "manual of style says the name of the article should be bold and the start of the opening sentence" I understand the sentence up to the word "bold". what does the rest of the sentence intend to say exactly? u'v got a hanging participle or something. CrackityKzz 16:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry that wasn't clear, here is the relevent link Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Article titles. The edit that I reverted moved the title out of the subject of the opening sentence into a subordinate clause. Does that make sense? Forgive me for not being clearer in the edit summary.--Andrew c 17:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

excellent. chances are if you use "subordinate clause"- gotcha. thanks. CrackityKzz 21:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)