Talk:Fernando Álvarez de Toledo, 3rd Duke of Alba

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Contents 1 Merge 2 Alba vs Alva 3 another request 4 Number of executions in the Netherlands

[edit] Merge

with Fernando_Alvarez_de_Toledo

[edit] Alba vs Alva

All information shows that he was the Duke of Alba, not Alva, from the ducal Alba family. Spanish Wikipedia shows the same. therefore request to move. Gryffindor 20:03, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

• Support. Olessi 04:36, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
• Support. Reverted changes by 82.161.49.184 who did a (blind) search & replace from Alba to Alva. Guus 20:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

"...Philip, who was an extreme Catholic..." - is this an objective statement? I'd like to delete it. Would that be agreable?--Thomas Ruefner 14:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Since nobody answered to my previous post I replaced the phrase "extreme catholic". --Thomas Ruefner 22:18, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] another request

There were multiple Dukes of Alba, therefore request to move in order to reflect the order. see Alonso de Guzmán El Bueno, 7th Duke of Medina Sidonia for reference sake. Gryffindor 15:40, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. —Nightstallion (?) ^{Seen this already?} 09:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Number of executions in the Netherlands

Looking at the number of victims mentioned in this article, there seems to be some disagreement. As Alferez mentioned in the article (a comment that has been removed by now) the Spanish wikipedia refers to hundreds of victims instead of the mentioned 6,000 (which should replace the 'exaggerated number' of 18,000). The Dutch article just mentions the number of 18,000. Jonathan Israel, who is usually well-informed, gives the following numbers of condemned people in his The Dutch Republic: it's Rise, Greatness, and Fall 1477-1806 (Oxford, Clarendon Press, 1995) pages 159-160:

• Tournai: 1,036
• Antwerp: 525
• Valenciennes: 425
• Ypres: 478
• Ghent: 248
• Brussels: 157
• Bruges: 149
• Hondschoote: 116
• Courtrai: 84
• Malines: 83
• Lille: 68
• Namur: 21
• Louvain: 20
• Douai: 4
• 's-Hertogenbosch: 360
• Utrecht: 288
• Amsterdam: 242
• Groningen: 209
• Nijmegen: 187
• Breda: 140
• Middelburg: 140
• Leeuwarden: 105
• Brill: 88
• Leiden: 83
• Haarlem: 35
• Gouda: 6

Refugees: 60,000.

Israel's sources are:

• A.L.E. Verheyden, Le conseil des troubles. Liste des condamnés (1567-73) (Brussels, 1961).
• G. Parker, The Dutch Revolt (London, 1977).

With the added notion that most other towns and especially the more northern regions experienced severely less condemned people, this totals at least: 5,297 people, and at least 60,000 people seem to have fled the region. This makes the number of 6,000 quite plausible. It therefore seems best to let this number remain in the article, unless someone else can provide other evidence. Another possiblity might be to omit the estimate altogether, and just mention the number of 18,000 as being hugely exaggerated. Tom 18:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Good work, I have rewritten the sentence to reflect both Dutch (18000) and spanish (few hundred) POV's and added 6000 as most realistic using your reference to Israel as the source; I don't think deeper sources are necessary if we put that one in. Arnoutf 19:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Tom, great work. I'll take it as the real number. Will update the Spanish wikipedia as soon as I can. On the other hand, I wonder why Dutch POV's are allowed and Spanish POV's aren't (specially when speaking about a Spanish character) I'd rather not start an editing war, but would like some explanation for that from RexGermanorum or any of his "colleagues" in the Dutch Military History project. Alferez 16:55, 7 September 2006

Your numbers "a few hundred" were preposterous, you portaying them as "protestants" (as if they deserved it) was unacceptable.

Rex 16:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

No POV is allowed! However, they can enter the text if the text is written by a person from a certain group. Alba is just as much part of Dutch as of Spanish history though; and I think this it will be a challenging but worthy effort to write a balanced article (Spanish hero = Dutch villain; but who was the historical person). As you may have noticed we have taken up the core of your criticism i.e. that 18000 is too high and tried to put in a number that is more realistic, thus trying to remove Dutch POV. Arnoutf 17:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure guys, you are right in many points, like the fact that you reviewed the numbers (and gave a much more documented one that the one i simply added as a counter-reference from en.wikipedia.org, that i do not consider "unacceptable").

There's still some Dutch POV (just to give an example, the use of the word "master" when speaking of the King makes the Duke appear like a dog with a master or a slave with a master... maybe vassal would be a better non POV-biased word) Notice that I NEVER tried to delete your points of view, but just to add another one, since I do consider too that it is a worthy effort to write a balanced article. My balancing was based more in adding other POVs rather than removing all possible POVs. But I am new to the Wikipedia (as a contributor, at least), so i will gladly follow your advice on the subject, Arnoutf :) RexGermanus, notice that you considering my contribution "unacceptable" probably made you delete the specific day of the instauration of the Council/Tribunal. (certainly unbiassed data, that got lost unnecessarily) Also, and lastly, please my apologies to you, RexGermanus, if you happened to find the word "protestants" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant) -that I used- demeaning at all. I do not try to mean or imply that anybody deserves anything (neither good nor bad) for being protestant. I just tried to make everybody notice that those times were not as politically correct as the ones we live today. The Tribunal was not invented "out of nothing". Protestants assaulted and burnt churches/imagery. In those days, that was a terrible heressy, and heressy was punished with death, as were many other "crimes" that we woldnt consider crimes at all today (or even if crimes, not worthy of death penalty). In my oppinion, merely stating facts without bearing in mind the "mindframes" of the people in the past will not lead to a real understanding of History. Maybe you'd consider adding back part of the contribution I did to the article. That's up to you. I'd love to discuss with you many other points (i've seen Arnoutf has a very ambitious plan to contribute ;-) ), if you are open to other views, that is. All you have my best regards! Alferez 23:59, 7 September 2006

Actually, the word "master" seems to be used only in the English Wikipedia: the Dutch Wikipedia says Alba conducted the negotiations of 1558-1559 in the name of Spain, instead of his master. It seems to me more like a case of differing views on what the word 'master' means in different languages, as the word seems more or less acceptable in this context (in the English language, I mean, it may have a more negative meaning in Spanish, I don't know). Anyway, I changed the sentence into something that looks more neutral, I think.

This article could use an overhaul. It's not just that it may present some POV, but it seems to compress Alba's career before his governorship of the Netherlands (when he was a rather effective military commander, amongst others) into the 'introductory' part. Maybe it would be a good idea to rewrite his biography almost completely, disbanding all possible POV, and adding a 'legacy' chapter (or something similar), in which both Dutch and Spanish (and Portuguese?) POVs could be explained. I am not familiar with his reputation in Spain, but his reputation in the Netherlands (deservedly or not) is rather bad, as he is considered something of our main historical villain. This may not be justified, but this reputation is there and should be represented, as long as we can establish that it is just a POV and not neccesarily historical fact. This article deserves better, I think. Let's see what we can do. Tom 00:55, 8 September 2006 (UTC)