Wikipedia talk:Featured picture candidates/Archive11

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Contents

Grazer Town Hall

Am I the only seeing what could be some sneaky vandalism in one of the lower right windows in this image? Zerak-Tul 20:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The only not so sneaky vandalism I see, is posting an insanely huge pic full size on this talk page. The window qualifies as art :-) --Dschwen 21:11, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Don't be so quick to accuse; posting the image was a mistake that was quickly fixed. Raven4x4x 00:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh boy... ...yeah I'll make sure to throw in a few more smilieys nex time. Apart from that, the history surprises me. No edit conflict, yet when I posted my reply the image was definately still big. Instead the diff says I just capitalized the I in image. Weird!. --Dschwen 06:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
The image in the window seems to be a banner that coincidentally falls exactly in front of the window. It confused me for a while, and I thought it might be image vandalism because of the way it is clearly in front of the banner pole (so not actually on the window), but seems to fit the dimensions of the window. However, the same image can be made out on two other banners to the right of that one; they're side-on, though, so not as visible. TSP 13:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Nice spot TSP :) Still uncanny looking though, and sorry about the initial posting of the image here, forgot that formatting Zerak-Tul 19:34, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering if the banner was split horizontally in the middle with the bottom part left/right and the upper part flipped head-on. InvictaHOG 20:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
I think more likely it's on the border of two images (remember it's a stitched panorama), with a face-on view fading into a side-on view. TSP 22:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Possible socks

Anyone else a little suspicious of QAZ, 66.36.155.198, Babayi who have suddenly popped out to rescue the Baghe Eram Shiraz from opposes? --Fir0002 22:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually I'm pretty sure now that they are socks of Arad, the did the same thing with the "Arge Bam" nom --Fir0002 22:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, not cool. The user contributions are quite a give-away. Even with the greatest benefit of the doubt plus extra assume-no-evil I'd guess they are at least meatpuppets. My suggestion would be weighing those votes a little less (or not at all, even if that is begging for in-crowd conspiracy theories again). --Dschwen 22:59, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Looks incriminating to me. Too bad that the FP crown is so glamorous that it distorts the process. SteveHopson 23:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
DUDE i don't even care about FP CROWN or the so called. I just thought that the image is nice and nominated it. I don't know about these users.

I agree, I ask the admin to remove these votes if possible, it's probably one of my friends at school who wants to support me. I'll tell him to stop because it's truely unfair and I understand. Thank you for watching these pages. Arad 23:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

not sure who they are but I agree with above Arad 23:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC) Feel free to contact me if this goes any further. Arad 23:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I took the votes of these people off the page, as i felt guilty for what they've done. Arad 23:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not allowed to ake the votes off. Arad 00:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

how much

I have read the archive posts on the issue, and there seems to be no consensus on how much modification of an image is too much, and also whether that should be codified or whether it should remain so undefined, for lack of a better term. Cat-five - talk 00:44, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean modification of a given image by people other than the photographer, or modification by the photographer? It is common (and to a certain extent, encouraged) for people on Wikipedia and Commons to make edits to freely-licensed images here if doing so will improve the image's usefulness for the projects. -- Moondigger 00:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
OTOH, FPCs that are edited (other than for brightness, color or contrast) may be opposed (if the edit is apparent, or done during a nomination period). Cases in point: the discussion about removing a duffel bag, people on front of a ruin, pink poles at the waterline... --Janke | Talk 05:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

No one is voting

Why no one is voting for the 2nd and 3rd image on this page? (Hong kong one and the paranoma) 66.36.148.132 14:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

In the United States, this is the Labor Day weekend -- a long holiday weekend that marks the "end of summer" and last weekend before school in many parts of the country. Lots of users may be away for a few days and there's definitely an above-average number of wikibreak notices around. That may explain, at least in part, slow voting for a couple of days. Newyorkbrad 02:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Arad's(?) Iran photos

Hi all - just thought I'd draw attention here to my concerns regarding Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Arge Bam and the rest of Arad's uploaded photos. As I've said elsewhere, I may be barking up the wrong tree and if I am, I apologise... comments appreciated. --Yummifruitbat 00:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I too am a little dubious, and certainly support your view. There may be a simple explanation, but I agree with what you said. --Fir0002 05:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The images are scans the differences in image size is typical of scans. They lack luster of recent print images. The vehicle concerned appears to be a 1960's toyota landcruiser this vintage but the wagon version. I have some 4500 pix on the pc I know when each one was taken. Also got 1000's of paper and slide images upto 30 years old and I can identify a generalise time frame (month year) of when they were taken. Gnangarra 06:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

FPs not promoted all the way

Recently, I've found two FPs that did not go through the entire promotion process, Image:Pantheon wider centered.jpg and Image:MarsSunset.jpg. I'm concerned there are more, but I don't have time to comb through the archives and make sure. Perhaps we can get a group of us to do this? Maybe split it up by month so that no one person has to do more than 1-2 month's worth of nominations. howcheng {chat} 16:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

What was the problem with those? They didn't show up on WP:FP? Might be easier to write a script/bot to comb through the archived noms and compare with WP:FP. --Dschwen 17:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
They were missing from Wikipedia:Featured pictures thumbs 06 or the earlier incarnation of that page, and thus didn't get a POTD entry. howcheng {chat} 17:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Running low on FPs

Just so you all you know, we are running out of Featured Pictures for POTD. As it stands right now, we will run out of new images and have to start repeating POTDs before the end of October. I encourage everyone to step up and find worthy candidates. Thanks. howcheng {chat} 16:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

How about looking through the Commons FPs? If they are used in an en.wiki article theres no reason they wouldnt be useable as a en FP (submit them?)--Nilfanion (talk) 17:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I've been doing that, but I also don't want to flood the FPC process. howcheng {chat} 17:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I think that French Wikipedia uses the commons FPC system entirely, rather than have FPC on the French Wikipedia. --Aude (talk contribs as tagcloud) 17:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Our criteria are significantly different than theirs. There have been a number of Commons FPs that do not pass here, and vice versa as well. howcheng {chat} 17:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Another option is to repeat older FPs (already have been used as FP of the day), perhaps only doing so a few times a week and showing new FPs other days. That's what used to happen before the Main Page redesign in February/March. --Aude (talk contribs as tagcloud) 18:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Though, I suppose some older FPs here that passed say two years ago, might not pass now as standards here have changed. I think we should be a little more flexible, in regards to Commons (and maybe use FPs from there only 1-2 times a week?) Or put some of the Commons FP up for FPC here? --Aude (talk contribs as tagcloud) 18:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I would prefer the repetition of FP's than the lowering of standards. If you are going to repeat old ones, somebody should take the job of going over the one's that will show on the main page and nominate for delisting if they don't match current standards(the FP standard was lower in the past). That way only our best will show. But of course the best solution is to go out there with your cameras, or scour free resources for pictures. HighInBC 18:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Howcheng, The oldest haven't been displayed in over a year, correct? If so then I think we should just start from the beginning when filler is needed. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 21:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, there are a lot that have been repeated. The ones that have only appeared as POTD once start in Wikipedia:Featured pictures thumbs 04. In case you don't know, FPs now get to be POTDs in the order they are promoted (generally). I know for a fact that since May 1, 2006 (when I started writing them), there have been no repeats at all, but before that date, some of the POTDs were repeats. So when we start running out, I will try to keep a good ratio of maybe 5:2 new to old per week if possible. Also, during my research I found a few FPs that never go to be POTDs so there's a few extra days' worth of buffer. (: howcheng {chat} 22:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
There are so many good candidates right now, it's just that wikipedians think that a FP is whether the one that they find cute and lovely or the one that they think is a FP in their opinion. If we put aside our prefrence and vote on quality, (not all voters ofcourse, some voters vote perfectly fine) we will have some good POTD soon. Arad 23:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I have an idea. Instead of telling existing nominators to step up, why not recrute more nominators? This could easily be done by advertising. Just like the encourager in the Featured Picture template that states " If you have a different image of similar quality, be sure to upload it using the proper free license tag, add it to a relevant article, and nominate it" This could be added to every POTD box, and will invariably end up on the main page, thus promoting our cause. Anyone agree? - Jack (talk) 00:05, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
We did that once and it was a disaster. See Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day#POTD_Mainpage.2C_remove_.22Nominate_new_image.22_link. howcheng {chat} 00:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Once again, I am concerned that in the rush for more pictures standards will be lowered. Inviting people at random(which a message on the main page does) will produce a huge backlog in voting and dilute the quality images attention. If an advertisment for more nominations is to be made, perhaps it would better to contact the people on this list: Wikipedia:Wikipedians/Photographers HighInBC 01:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
The only person that openly opposed the link was Dschwen. We really do need more noms, it barely takes any work to close a failed nomination. Bad nominations should only take a second of a persons time, its not a big deal. The people that complain about low quality nominations tend to not even be the people that close them. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 02:06, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I was an unregistered, anonymous contributer at the time of that discussion, but I would have been right there with Dschwen opposing the link had I been registered. I base that opinion on what I've seen on various photography forums I've either participated on or moderated. It's human nature to overestimate the quality and/or usefulness of one's own images, whether you're a snapshooter, hobbyist, or pro. The difference is that hobbyists and pros tend to produce reasonably good images (even if we're sometimes blind to the flaws in our own work), whereas snapshooters tend to produce a large volume of images that have no chance of being featured. -- Moondigger 02:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
If we must have more pictures, then more nominations is fine, but lets go for quality nominations. The main page is like grabbing a handfull of pebbles when you want quartz. Lets start with the people here:Wikipedia:Wikipedians/Photographers, that way we can not only get more nomination but more new photographs HighInBC 02:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
You know this is pretty funny, not so long ago people on the talk page wanted to restrict nominations! Anyway I'm all for more noms. --Fir0002 09:09, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
There are loads of images on peer review, if we're looking for more nominations (though to be perfectly honest, I doubt that there are many, if any, images that would pass. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) 12:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

This guy [1] has a very large amount of Featured Picture quality images, many of which could contribute greatly to Wikipedia Articles. Many of his pictures (as shown on his user page) say, "© This photo is public" or are under Creative Commons liscenses which allows them to be used on Wikipedia. Someone should go through (Arad has a bit already - although it runs out those have copyright issues)) and find the good ones, upload them, add them to their appropriate articles, and then nominate them. Nauticashades 07:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately not possible. His profile says: "... my photos are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.5. " Note that non-commercial = not allowed on wikipedia. --Janke | Talk 13:25, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Featured Picture of Day

I nominated a few pictures which are definitely FP so we're going to be OK for pic of the day when they are accepted. Arad 21:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

If they're accepted. Nauticashades 19:44, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Delisting

I would nominate Image:IronInRocksMakeRiverRed.jpg for delisting, but I'm afraid I don't know how. Could someone do it for me? Nauticashades 10:50, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, nevermind. Someone showed me how to do it. You can go vote on it, though. Nauticashades 13:51, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Delisting Because of Size

I think we need to make a policy that before a Delist that is mostly about size that the nominator at least attempts to contact the uploader to obtain a larger version. We have too many good pictures that are nominated for size reasons without a single attempt to contact the uploader. AfD's generally ask a user to tag the article and work with it, if it's a workable article, we should asks the nominators to do the same.PPGMD 15:06, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree. I say contact and then 1 month grace period before a size nom can happen. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 15:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The image is not deleted, but it certainly should be standard practice to contact the upload when it is put up for delisting. HighInBC 15:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you all talking about this delist nomination? If you are, be assured I left a note in the original uploader's talk page when I nominated it for delisting. Nauticashades 15:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not talking about any particular delisting, I am talking in general. I believe that for a size nom, the delister should first attempt to contact the uploader before putting the Featured Picture up for delisting. If the major reason to delist is for size issues, you can wait a week or so, and let the uploader attempt to put a larger image up. PPGMD 15:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Why not during the delisting? If assurances that a larger image is forthcoming then the delisting can be delayed. Either way I am for finding larger images, but if we contact them before the delisting, how long do we wait for a reply? HighInBC 17:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
We could perhaps discuss it and agree on an amount of time. I would also think that email should be used if it is an option. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 17:53, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
This practice is used in Featured article review and seems like a polite thing to do before listing. Doesn't mean that we haven't been polite thus far, but now that it's been brought up it seems like a nice thing to do. InvictaHOG 18:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Exactly, it's not only polite, but it saves editor time. It's better that an image simply doesn't come to delisting in the first place. PPGMD 18:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't recall seeing a delisting nom for which the only consideration was size/resolution. Some of Fir's earlier FPs are only 800x600, but are generally left alone because they meet all criteria other than resolution. None of the current delist noms are there solely due to size, and I can't recall seeing one like that either.

This seems like an unnecessary rule/policy that has no real-world applicability. -- Moondigger 20:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Did you look at the current listings? Almost every one mentions size, in some way. Here is a perfect example: Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Image:Zermatt_and_Matterhorn.jpg_delist -Ravedave (help name my baby) 21:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
For the most part, the biggest Nom reasons for 3 of the current delist noms is size, sure they mention other reasons, but size seems to be the one that they are hitting on the most. If the size issue was fixed it's unlikely that those nominations would even be up there. Asking to see if it can be improved is simply polite. PPGMD 21:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
As I said, I can't recall seeing a delisting nom for which the only consideration was size. Otherwise people would be nominating some of Fir0002's otherwise fine images,+ some of which are less than 0.5 megapixels. My point is that when people look at featured pictures, I don't think they're nominating to delist because of resolution; I think they're seeing other problems that are obvious in the thumbnails on featured pictures thumbs or on featured pictures visible. Then they're noticing that the resolution doesn't meet requirements as well, and mention all of these issues in the nomination to delist. Just because most of these nominations mention substandard resolution/size does not mean it's the sole reason for the delist nomination. If somebody can point out a nomination any time in the past three-four months or so (since I've been participating) for which the sole reason was size or resolution, I'll concede the point. But based on what I've seen, this is a solution in search of a problem.
+Fir, I'm not trying to pick on you. I mention your images because some of them are perfect examples of images that don't merit a delisting nom despite being below the stated resolution requirements. -- Moondigger 23:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
I think this is an un-needed complication and delay. I believe if the people ar informed at the beginning of te nom then that should do. If they post and ask for a few days to come up with a better pic, I have no doubt that people will oblige. Even if the pic gets delisted, it can always be renominated. say1988 04:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Which Pioneer Plaque?

(This discussion was started by User:Janke, copied from FPC discussion.)

  • Support original. One of the few artifacts of mankind that have left our Solar system. NOTE: It seems it is not in any article at the moment - some other version, perhaps? Needs to be looked in to. --Janke | Talk 07:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
OK, the line drawing is in the articles. What do we do when most people here prefer the original? Substitute it in the article? Maybe not the best option, a line drawing fits better there... --Janke | Talk 13:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea, as I'm new at this. Do the elders have an opinion? --Billpg 13:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The line drawing lacks the historical significance that the original has. The image itself is really only important due to it's historical significance. Not sure what to do about it's lack of presence in the article. HighInBC 14:52, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, in a sense it IS in the article, only another "version" of it. However, I would NOT substitute the line drawing with the color version in the article, but I would put the color one in POTD. Is there a true conflict, really? --Janke | Talk 14:58, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
They seem to me to illustrate very slightly different things - one illustrates the plaque, the other illustrates the content of the plaque. So I'd put the coloured version in Pioneer plaque (if it is preferred in the FPC vote); but Information graphics, for example, might be better with the black and white version because it is only concerned with what is printed on the plaque, not with the form of the plaque itself. TSP 15:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
The image definitely deserves to be in the article, so I've been WP:BOLD... Good nomination by the way. –Outriggr § 01:39, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Victor's photos

Becuase of 4 day periode of waiting, I renominated the photos so everyone can vote. Arad 12:25, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

User:NegativeNed

I'm pretty sure User:NegativeNed is vadalizing on FPC. He opposes every image with jokes. It's OK if he likes to have fun and make jokes but FPC is not the place.

  • To the person who closes the nominations: Please do not count this user's votes on any of the nomination unless they are changed or are credible. Thank you. Arad 03:34, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  • His name says it all: NegativeNed Arad 03:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow, vadalizing? Jokes? Don't count my votes? What is going on here? What exactly counts as a credible vote? You don't like my name? NegativeNed 04:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't go so far as to call your comments vandalism, but many of them are hardly what I would call 'credible votes'. Would you care to explain how this and this are supposed to be constructive comments? Raven4x4x 05:29, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Ned, you have an intersting way of pushing the issue of FPC Suffrage...-Ravedave (help name my baby) 08:12, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
This guy actually makes my laugh. Arad 13:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Ned, perhaps this will help you Wikipedia:What_is_a_featured_picture?, it shows the criteria that we use the judge featured pictures. HighInBC 14:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  • OK i exaggerated, he's not vadazlizing. Keep up the good work. Happy? Arad 00:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Closing Nominations

Anyone out there to close a dozen of nominations? If I knew how exactly, (because I don't want to ruin anything) I would do it. Thank you. Arad 19:59, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

+6 / -3 NOT PROMOTED?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Image:Ciudad_de_las_ciencias_noche.JPG --> Nomination not promoted while the census was in favor of it. +6/-3 = 2/3. How is this working? I want an explanation from Yummyfruitbat. Thank you Arad 23:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeh that is bizarre. enochlau (talk) 23:40, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm sure his only reason is because he didn't like the image. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arad (talk • contribs).
One of the supports was weak; I counted based on Support = 1, Weak Support = 0.5, Oppose = 1, Weak Oppose (there weren't any of those) would have been 0.5. Thus 5.5 vs. 3, which doesn't look like a consensus in favour to me. Even at 6/3 it's bang on the mark, and there were two comments (Witty_Lama and drumguy) which expressed concerns about the quality; consensus, as has been discussed here ad nauseum, does not come down to a simple vote count. I did not feel that there was a consensus in favour of promoting this image. Perhaps I shouldn't have closed it, as I voted, but I have done it transparently. Please refrain from shouting at me, Arad; I was responding to your request that someone clear the backlog of nominations. --YFB ¿ 00:02, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
  • "I was responding to your request that someone clear the backlog of nominations." I didn't understand this part. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arad (talk • contribs).
  • You requested (above) that if someone was about, could they please close some of the nominations, as there were a lot that had passed the 7 day mark. So I closed some, and got an earful. --YFB ¿ 00:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Firstly Arad, consensus is supposed to be more than just counting votes; a two thirds majority is a guideline, not a hard limit. You can see here that a promotion I made several months ago with a two thirds majority generated some controversy, so I tend to look for more than that myself. Secondly, accusing Yummifruitbat of bias against your nomination is inappropriate. We have a policy here of assuming good faith, so please do this in future. Thirdly, please sign all your comments on talk pages. Raven4x4x 00:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

So, consensus here now means 75% or thereabouts? Many many moons ago, it used to be a simple majority... enochlau (talk) 08:35, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Consensus cannot be defined by any fixed percentage. It's a "decision" made by a group, hopefully a decision everyone in the group can live with. Thus, a rational explanation for an oppose vote makes that vote more important than just a simple comment like "boring". --Janke | Talk 08:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
OK then, if 2/3 is a guideline, then if it's {+6/-3 = 6/9} which is 2/3 is good enough to be promoted. Anyway i REALLY don't care anymore and seriously, this wikipedia is frustrating as User:Zereshk said years ago. this whole thing if you put too much effort is a waste of time. just a little typo fixes now and then is enough. After this I'll just use wiki as a source of information. After all my nominations are closed I will never visit this FPC no more. It is frustrating with all these users thinking they are gods or something. If you find this message rude, then I'm sorry but don't warn for any reasons. In the end I should add that whatever you might think, I still believe that the nomination had the consensus in favor of it. Arad 21:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I overreacted, but I'm really tired for this kind of discussion. So don't be offended by my comments above. Arad 21:27, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Assume bad faith just made my day, i'm taking a break. lol Arad 21:36, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Metung Wharf was just promoted, but it was far from a 2/3 majority, neither was Janke's definition of Consensus. Did it deserve to be promoted? Nauticashades 16:04, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It's a borderline case, which can be left to the closer's discretion. IMHO one more vote either way would have swung the decision, but I'm not going to second guess User:Hetar on this one. howcheng {chat} 16:48, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
  • No offence but people here no have life to promote a +6/-3 and not a 5.5/-3. Who cares just promote it if there is more support than oppose. 66.36.143.210 22:12, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
  • No offense, but learn how Wikipedia (and FPC nominations) work before you spout off about it. The basic idea is to try to achieve consensus, but since that's all but impossible in FPC discussions we aim for a supermajority. As has already been explained, we don't actually go by a straight vote count -- the person closing the nomination should take the various comments into account and make a judgement based on both the vote count and the comments. No matter what happens, though, a simple majority like you're advocating doesn't even approach the concept of a consensus, and so will likely never be adequate for Featured Picture promotions. -- Moondigger 23:24, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
  • First of all, a guidline is NOT a rule, therefore, a 2/3 majority does not automatically mean promotion. Anything around 2/3 is iffy and really can go either way. Now I support if people politely ask for reasoning behind questionable closings. As seen in the past the discussion can be useful. I see this closing as questionable, but I can also see this going either way. say1988 02:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Is your reply directed at me or at the anonymous IP poster? I never said a 2/3 majority means automatic promotion, or that it was a "rule." I pointed out that the pure vote counts matched the results in these two cases, if one were to use the 2/3 majority guideline, and that therefore I didn't find either of these closings particularly surprising. I actually explained that pure vote counts aren't the only thing considered more than once in this conversation, so your informing me of that seems redundant. -- Moondigger 04:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't know why I indented that liek that. It was directed at the people in general sho are saying "IT had two thirds so it should be promoted" etc.... not you. say1988 02:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
The same thing happened to me, and the advice I got was good - that if I believed in the image enough, and sought to have it be considered for Featured status, I should give it some time and re-nominate it. It was good advice then and now. Don't let it get you down, just try again another day if it's something you believe in strongly enough. Be well. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 02:47, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

(Maximum) size of FPs

From Wikipedia talk:What is a featured picture?

Ok, there is some talk about not choosing an image for FP because it is too big at Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Orion_Nebula_mosaic.

The concern of some seems to be that very large images cannot be loaded well in a browser by people or at all by people with slower computers.

My response to this is:

  1. Large images are not meant to be viewed in a browser, the wikipedia software automatically scales the images for use in a browser.
  2. A warning at the top of the image page is enough to warn people
  3. The Download high-resolution version button should do just that
  4. A featured picture should be the best wikipedia has to offer and more detailed images are better than less
  5. It is arbritrary, an old enough computer will crash on a 2000x2000 image, while the better computers of today can handle a 18000x18000.
  6. Not making the larger picture FP will not stop people from clicking on it, only deleting the larger image will accomplish that.
  7. The maximum size of files on wikipedia was increased from 8mb to 20mb, this coupled with the text of Wikipedia:Image_use_policy#Rules_of_thumb point 5 seems to indicate that the bigger the image the more prefered it is.

Please give your opinion on this matter. Do you think that a very large image should be scaled down and then used as the FP instead of the large one? Or do you think the highest detailed version of the image should be used? If such a limitation is to exist it should be in this criteria page. HighInBC 15:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

In response to HighInBC's comments on the nebula image, I think some sort of maximum size should be proposed for the time being. I have what I consider to be a half-decent computer (Athlon XP 3000+, 512MB RAM) and I can't load the image in Firefox. That means that potentially a very large proportion of other wikipedia users will also not be able to view it. To non-computer-literate users it may just seem that the page is broken. Therefore it seems a little silly to have this as featured picture; until such time as we can expect the majority of users to be able to view the full-sized version, I think the large version should be linked from the 6k x 6x image. I see no reason why the large version shouldn't also be listed as featured, but with a note that the smaller version go on the front page. Having a warning that you might not be able to view the image doesn't strike me as ideal because it's unlikely that everyone will take notice of it, even if they see it. --YFB ¿ 00:30, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with the quality of your computer, web browsers are not designed for large pictures. My computer is comperable to yours and I could load it, and the 385mb tif I created it from, on my computer using proper image software(photoshop). HighInBC 15:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, only just saw this part of your comments - surely that supports my point? Wikipedia is a website, i.e. designed to be viewed in a web browser. Doesn't it strike you as illogical to have listed as 'one of our best images' something that can't be viewed in a web browser? I maintain my earlier stance that this is a great image but we should, on the basis of your comments, supply access to it via a 'download this to view it in a proper imaging program (e.g. Photoshop), if you have have one and also have more than x amount of RAM, otherwise you're wasting your time' link, and keep the smaller image as the featured image so that everyone can view 'our best images' in a web browser? --YFB ¿ 00:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
We should always have the maximum resolution file available somehow for those that want it, so I think it's a good idea to have an upper restriction on size for the actual file that gets featured. YFB's solution makes a lot of sense. ~MDD4696 00:44, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, always let people have access to max res, but I agree, keep the file size down of front page stuff. Now, whenever you click on an image, you first go to the image page, which has a downsampled image, click that, and you get full size - but, I have problems, too, with that humongous, but wonderful nebula. So, a medium-size FP having a link to an even larger one on the image page is a good solution. --Janke | Talk 06:19, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

A special copy of the picture of the day is made anyways so it can be protected. Surely if it is such a concern then a scaled down version could be used for picture of the day, but that does not mean it should be a featured picture, as featured pictures are an example of our best. HighInBC 15:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Near Infrared Tree votes

Please clarify your votes at: Wikipedia:Featured_picture_candidates/Near_Infrared_Tree. Right now the orginal version is promoted, with the votes at: 3 "support", 5 "Support Either", 2 3 "Prefer original" and 7 "Prefer edit 1" including two that oppose original while supporting edit. Thank you -Ravedave (help name my baby) 06:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

To me, that sounds like edit 1 wins. howcheng {chat} 06:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I have left messages for several users that said "either" to update their vote. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 17:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. Why? Sounds like it's a clear win for Edit 1. I don't see why it's invalid to support without offering an opinion on which of two alternatives is promoted. I think it's generally been accepted that only one variant of a proposed picture gets promoted, so I don't think it needs to be manipulated so that one of the alternatives turns into an oppose. TSP 18:09, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree edit1 wins, but this is here becuase Hetar promoted the original and disagreed with me that edit 1 should have been promoted, see here: User_talk:Hetar#Near_Infrared_Tree -Ravedave (help name my baby) 21:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I doubt it will make much difference, but as the nominator I have a strong preference for the original image. The image is already presented on the article in question as a diptych, and it was done simply by formatting them properly in the article. Edit 1 seems pointless to me -- doubling the size of the image to make a diptych that isn't needed. -- Moondigger 22:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Other have strong preference for the edit, so it evens out. Did you notice that before I added the pasted together image everyone was oppose and there was much confusion, and after I added the edit the confusion dissapeared? The only way to force this to remain a diptych is to put the images together. Also if someone wants to see a larger version of the two compared they can't with the old way, but the combined image has a nice image page. Not like the "why"s really matter, the root is that there is ovbious preference for edit 1 and it was not promoted. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 22:26, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Recounted: 7 "support edit", 2 "support edit oppose original", 4 "original", 4 "support either", 1 "Oppose Original - Neutral Edit". To me that is definitly edit one. Even if the 4 eithers all went original there would be 3 opposes against it making it 5 to 7. Howcheng can you close? I would but I think I am too involved. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 01:25, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
For those that state a preference, I have 6 prefer original and 8 prefer edit. I'm being kind by not opposing the edit, otherwise it would be 6 to 7. In any case, I don't think 6 to 8 or 5 to 7 could be considered consensus for either version, and suggest we just adhere to the closer's decision. I don't believe there's a precedent for overriding a closer's decision without consensus to do so. -- Moondigger 01:43, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Hrm you are right about the count, sorry about that! I will re-ask the four two remaining eithers. I feel very strongly that edit 1 should be the one promoted as it is ovbious that people don't understand the single picture, and the single picture is being used, such as here: Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2006-09-25/Features_and_admins -02:16, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I apoligize for the late reply. Though not truly a strong preference, I prefer edit 1. —Jared Hunt October 1, 2006, 05:29 (UTC)

Closing nomination

OK, so I should probably know this, but the instructions don't seem entirely clear. Who is supposed to close a failed nomination? 1) The nominee 2) An admin 3) Someone not involved 4) Someone else?

I'm happy to try to do it, if I can, seeing as it's obvious my nomination failed. Please let me know here or on my talk page. Terri G 15:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Anyone can close a nomination. In cases where the nominee wants to close their own nomination, it should be blatantly clear as to the result (and it just seems more professional to let someone else close it if it looks like it's going to be promoted). Although it is not a requirement, controversial nominations or nominations that do not have an overly clear consensus should be closed by an uninvolved party. --Hetar 05:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Noise demonstration

Would someone with a tripod be willing take two pictures of one subject with a digitial camera in regular and really low light (hopefully noisey) to demonstrate image noise? I think a side by side comparison would provide more info than the existing picture. From the existing picture it looks like grey is a good color to demonstrate it with. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 01:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

There are a couple examples of noise on wikipedia, I am hoping to get the same subject shot twice with two noise levels so the difference (noise) can be seen. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 07:44, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
2 sec
Enlarge
2 sec
0.1 sec
Enlarge
0.1 sec
flash
Enlarge
flash
>10 sec
Enlarge
>10 sec
  • Here are a few, one is shot in very dim daylight (2 sec), the other in bright artificial light (0.1 sec), the last with flash. All at ASA 160 equivalent. The difference in color balancing and light direction may skew the results slightly. No editing whatsoever has been done. Check the metadata for further info. I really don't see a very marked difference in graininess, even though the 2 sec. one is somewhat grainier. Later tonight, I may be able to get a shot at 10 to 20 sec. exposure - that should show some "hot" pixels already... Greetings, --Janke | Talk 08:30, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
HAh your camera is too good. Got a crappier one somewhere? Can you crank up your ISO setting? -Ravedave (help name my baby) 15:29, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
So, you want noise, eh? - here's one with a VERY long exposure, almost in total darkenss... the only light here is the very dim daylight (7 pm, dark outside!) that comes through the closed blinds, plus a little incandescent "leaking" from another room. I had to use a penlight for the camera to focus! The resulting image was so dark that I had to adjust the levels, and the metadata disappeared. This is still 160 ASA, but now you do have noise! Satisfied? (Of course, you have to check the images full size to see the noise... ;-) Also note the horizontal striation - a CCD artifact, and the loss of color saturation, typical in low light situations. The randomly colored noise is very mottled, typical of low-light shots. Also note how the noise (grain) covers the small details in the picture - for instance, you really can't see the tiger's whiskers anymore. --Janke | Talk 16:04, 30 September 2006 (UTC) PS: I was surprised to find no "hot" pixels, but it appears my camera makes a "correction pass", at least the display says it is calculating, for about as long as the exposure. It would be a smart thing to subtract a long, totally black exposure from the real one - thus erasing the errors from hot or dead pixels. Maybe the striations are an artifact of this process? --Janke | Talk 07:33, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Wow... Someone should put these together (or just the 10 second one) and put it on the What is a Featured Picture? page. NauticaShades(talk) 06:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Go ahead, you can do it! ;-) --Janke | Talk 07:33, 1 October 2006 (UTC) Did it myself, and linked to image noise. --Janke | Talk 09:33, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


I have created a combined image and added that one instead to the article.
Enlarge
. Janke if you move your images to commons I'll link them from my combined image. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 01:17, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
No need to link (and move?) the original images, IMHO. But if you wish to do so, please feel free! I do think your combination shows all that's important... ;-) --Janke | Talk 06:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Can I just add that I'm not sure that Janke's image is the best example of noise in terms of digital cameras.. Yes, it is definitely a classic case of noise but to demonstrate it properly, the lighting should stay the same and the ISO should increase. From the example on the article, it appears that the colour balance also changes when extra noise is introduced. ;). I understand that Janke's camera has noise increases quite rapidly at exposures over 1 second, but not all cameras are quite that bad - the consistent factor is mainly ISO (sensitivity) rather than exposure length. I'll try to put together a better example this weekend if I get the chance. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 10:39, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Diliff, usually the contributing factor is ISO sensitivity. Although with your cam it may be a little hard to get some noise Diliff ;-)! --Fir0002 10:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree with you. ISO affects the noise more than exposure time (but that affects too). Since the original question was about low-light noise, I just made a quick test of that only. When you have a better pair of images, please feel free to replace mine! Or, maybe you could even do a series of ISO 25 to 3200? --Janke | Talk 12:52, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

PS: My camera is horribly noisy at 400 ISO (max setting) because of the small CCD, so I have limited the "auto-ISO" to 160... In my profession (animation & special effects) I very seldom use digital cameras, only 35 and 16 mm movie film, plus a 2400 dpi scanner... That's why I don't have, nor need, a high-end digicam. I am pretty pleased with the 2-year old 5 Mpx KonicaMinolta, though - smaller than a deck of playing cards, weighs less than 150 grams, no protruding lens, sliding clamshell lens cover, fits comfily in a pocket, i.e. an ideal "documentation" camera. I think the examples here are actually surprisingly good, considering the camera's small size. Even the Hawk Moth macro shot [2] shows what it can do (with the proper button excercises ;-) ... but, as Fir noted, the shadows are pretty noisy on that one, too! Greetings, --Janke | Talk 13:45, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

If anyone can make a "better" version then feel free. You should be able to get noise with any camera, it's just harder to do with some. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 17:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
LOL! --Janke | Talk 19:26, 4 October 2006 (UTC)


Former Featured Picture Tags

Image:London Eye panorama.jpg and Image:IronInRocksMakeRiverRed.jpg didn't have Former Featured Picture tags, so I added them. NauticaShades(talk) 07:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Ooh, sorry, I missed that section. I didn't realise those tags even existed... Thanks for picking that up. Next time, if you ever find a tag missing or similar, there is no need to announce it here; just dropping the closer a note would perhaps be better. Thanks again. Raven4x4x 00:14, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh okay, no problem. NauticaShades(talk) 06:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The Archive

The archive is red-linked. What happened? NauticaShades(talk) 06:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

New month, gotta make a new archive. howcheng {chat} 06:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh... okay. Sorry about that. NauticaShades(talk) 07:18, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

FP or not?

Image:Metal movable type.jpg says it is a featured picture but isn't linked to from the main list, and doesn't have a little star in the corner. Any ideas?--Andrew c 20:40, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

It's featured at Wikimedia Commons, not here on the English Wikipedia. -- Moondigger 20:47, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Ah, that makes sense now. Thanks.--Andrew c 20:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Color gamma test

I added another useful test image that will show whether your display has a properly adjusted gamma. There are some technical notes on the colortest.png image page. --Janke | Talk 07:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! It isn't addressed how to fix your monitor if the circles aren't properly blending. Can you add that as well? -Ravedave (help name my baby) 17:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
It's not any adjustment on the monitor (which has a fixed gamma - read the tutorial linked on the test image page), it's in the computer system software. On the PC I'm using right now, there's a gamma setting very deep down in the hierarchy (sorry, can't give you the proper tab names, since they'e all in Finnish on this version of WinXP!), but not all PCs may have it. On Macs, it's much easier to find, among the "control panels". --Janke | Talk 18:54, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
PS: Found this link googling for windows+XP+gamma+setting: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/digitalphotography/prophoto/colorcontrol.mspx --Janke | Talk 19:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I need Linux instructions ;) chowells 21:01, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
People who use linux don't need instructions, just type out a really long command line that'l do it. HighInBC 21:06, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I think there was something in the gamma tutorial. Did you read it? The link is on the image page. --Janke | Talk 05:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Image:Villarceau circles.gif

I don't think that Image:Villarceau circles.gif was promoted properly. It's only in Featured Pictures Visible, and nothing else. Am I right? NauticaShades 10:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


Another "rank" in closing stages

Hi!
I've noticed a couple of "very weak opposes" on FPC - I think it'd be best to define them as -0.5 where:
Support = 1
Weak Support = 0.5
Very Weak Oppose = -0.5
Weak Oppose = -1
Oppose = -2
And if sum of those votes is equal or greater than 0 it's a promote. Is that OK with everyone? Or should a Very Weak Oppose be counted the same as a Weak Oppose? --Fir0002 08:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think oppose votes should carry double the weight of support votes. IMHO "very weak oppose" is the same as "weak oppose". Also, it shouldn't be if the sum >= 0, because then that would imply a 50/50 split, which as we all know is not enough for promotion. At the very minimum you need a 2/3 majority. howcheng {chat} 16:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
oppose = -2? what? no way. I think all opposes should be -1 and all supports +1. If they are really that weak opposing then they should go neutral. Otherwise I plan on inventing super mega support ++ ( = +5)-Ravedave (help name my baby) 17:10, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The reason for having "double weight" for opposes is simply a mathematical shortcut: If the sum is exactly zero, we have a 2/3 "supermajority", which at least so far has been considered the lowest to be called "consensus". If the sum is negative, nom is not promoted, since it has less than 2/3 support. As simple as that. --Janke | Talk 17:33, 11 October 2006 (UTC) PS: Very weak = weak, be it oppose or support.
    • Damn my non-existent math skills! I get it now. The only thing is, I wouldn't want this to be a hard-and-fast rule, just a rule of thumb. howcheng {chat} 18:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
      • It is a rule of thumb. The closer has considerable freedom and can weigh the pros and cons discussed in text. --Janke | Talk 18:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree that "very weak" should equal "weak" for both supports and opposes. If somebody's support or opposition is really that weak (very weak), then it makes sense to either pick neutral or weak. -- Moondigger 17:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm with Moondigger; I've rarely seen anything but "weak," normal or "strong" supports/opposes. Anything "very weak" should be considered neutral. And the vote should only be used as a rule of thumb, so if we end up with a 50-65% majority, but some good arguments for the image are made, it should be still promoted. ♠ SG →Talk 13:03, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Featured pictures director

I think FPC could be helped by the election of a featured pictures director (FPD) for a term of one year. I belive these would be the roles:

  1. Remove personal attacks/noncivil votes. Make sure newbies feel welcome.
  2. Decide if a picture is promoted or not (with absolute athority unless a re-nominated) and decide which edit is the best if there is no consensus.
  3. Maintain and gatekeep the rules page (there have been many additions, few discussed)
  4. Be the contact point when sock puppets are suspected

The actual promotion of the picture (adding to various pages removing templates etc) could be left to anyone, so the FPD would just mark the item closed and promoted/not promoted. I think having a consistant way of deciding things would be nice. It seems to work well for FAC. Thoughts? -Ravedave (help name my baby) 17:22, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a pretty good idea, but I think a year might be too long of a time period for someone to commit to. Maybe we could start with term of one month that can be renewed? howcheng {chat} 18:29, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Maybe the director should decide whether they are promoted or not, add the template, and then leave others to do the rest. Anyway, I think it's a great idea. NauticaShades 18:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Well personally I'm a little dubious, as although it's a nice thought I don't see any problem with the current system. If it ain't broke, don't fix it! --Fir0002 08:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
It could make things run much more smoothly though, as well as solving some conflicts. NauticaShades 09:19, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I support a person taking responsibility for the organization of this, but I do not see the need for any special authority. HighInBC 04:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I would support having a featured pictures director for one month terms. It would make ending many nominations a lot easier, such as with close votes, controversial noms (Touched by His Noodly Appendage, which, by the way, I still don't understand why people thought of it as non-NPOV) and when there are a lot of versions to choose from (Supermarine Spitfire XVI).
However, we would have to lay some ground rules for special situations, such as when there is a conflict of interest (ie. FP director is the nominator or creator of a FPC or a version of a FPC). ♠ SG →Talk 12:57, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Allowing this person to moderate and lead is fine. But giving special authority is not needed, as the individual can be lead by consensus. That way if a conflict of interest comes about it can be handled the same way all conflicts of interests are handled; by needing to support your decision with the facts at hand, in this case the voters. HighInBC 14:25, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I would say that the Spitfire edit debate is a perfect exampe of where a Featured Picture Director's decision would be useful. NauticaShades 21:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


Encyclopedic Value

Encyclopedic Value seems to have become a pretty important factor in FPC, but is it barely mentioned in Wikipedia:What is a featured picture?. I propose an expasion of criterion 5, explaining the boundary between art (black and white, soft focus, etc.) and encyclopedic pictures, as well as angles, (side on instead of straight on, etc). What do you think? NauticaShades 17:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

This is hard to quantify. In some cases soft focus allows the subject to be isolated from the background, in others it is a fault. Similiar variation occurs in the other attributes you mentioned. Certainly it could use expansion, but hard and fast rules about these things will fail to account for the diversity of images.
Perhaps something along the lines of "It is important that the encyclopedic value of the image be given priority over the artistic value of the image."
yay, something like that, or not, or something else, hehe. HighInBC 04:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
I like the wording "It is important that the encyclopedic value of the image be given priority over the artistic value of the image." It might also be nice to just mention that black and white, backlit, funky angles, etc. often prove less encyclopedic. It's certainly something which took me awhile to figure out! InvictaHOG 09:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, lets try to draft what it should say. Let me give my go at it. NauticaShades 21:57, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Criterion 5 Draft v1.2

5. Add value to an article and help complete readers' understanding of an article in ways other pictures in the article do not. It is important that the encyclopedic value of the image be given priority over the artistic value of the image. While effects like black and white, sepia, oversaturation, and abnormal angles may be visually pleasing, they often detract from the accurate depiction of the subject.

Opinions

I would support that wording. Perhaps the third sentence could be something like: While effects like black and white, sepia, oversaturation, and abnormal angles may be visually pleasing, they often detract from the accurate depiction of the subject.

Mabye too wordy, but less matter of fact and not written in the imperative. HighInBC 00:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Okay, I have fixed the wording. Does anybody else have any ideas on this? NauticaShades 15:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I fully support the wording as you have put it. I think it is a progressive change for the FP criteria. HighInBC 21:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I have been bold and changed point 5 to the version you drafted, as there has been no resistence to the idea. Good work. HighInBC 22:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Thanks, let's hope it helps to sort some things out. NauticaShades 14:43, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Closing procedures

First, I'd like to draw the attention of anyone who is involved in closing nominations to the revised instructions. These changes were made in line with the refactoring of WP:FP I did. Let me know if it's not clear.

Second, I noticed that a number of recent promoted images were not being added to WP:FPT. Please note that this is a crucial step because that's how I figure out what the order is when writing the POTD blurbs. Thanks. howcheng {chat} 22:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Can anm gifs be resized now? I think I seen them in several spots being resized. -Ravedave (help name my baby) 23:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Apparently some can, but not others. I guess the only way to tell is to try it and see if the animation looks right. howcheng {chat} 03:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, Pi-unrolled (animated) resizes fine. There is a thumb caching bug that may cause old versions to crop up in thumbs for a week or two after new versions are uploaded over the same filename; this propagates even to the image description page. But new thumbs, created by demanding a novel width, are displayed fine; and the problem does iron itself out in time. John Reid 23:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


FPC Failed Template

 This picture was nominated as a featured picture candidate in MONTH-YEAR.

I made a {{FPCfailed|discussion page}} template. What do you think of it? NauticaShades 09:07, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it will just give a good but not FP quality image a bad rap. I mean I remember when people were discussing on the water article what should be the main image. And the fact that one of my images failed to become a FP (even though the alternatives wouldn't have) was used against it. --Fir0002 09:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think a failed FPC template is necessary. Unlike failed featured article candidates, such an image cannot be improved by the community, though entirely different photos can be uploaded. ♠ SG →Talk 12:46, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Um, I disagree with SG. Images can indeed be improved by the community (although I understand the other argument). I think a template is useful but I don't think it should highlight failure.
By analogy, you never see on, say, an actor's resume that he failed to win an Oscar. Instead, he's proud to say he was nominated for an Oscar 7 times. The "failed" closed template should simply say, positively, that an image was nominated. Avoid all mention of failure; success is conspicuous enough by its absence.
To distinguish a closed nomination from an open one, the closed template should include a date. I'll take a crack at it. John Reid 23:25, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
There is a HUGE difference between an Oscar and a featured picture nomination. Members of the Academy nominate actors and films, and then those with the most nominations are selected for voting; after voting, the winner is announced.
On here, ONE single person out of thousands of members nominate an image. Some images fail miserably, some are nominated in bad faith (ie. "42" as a joke a while ago). Why should those images have this tag?
And again, an image probably will not be improved to the point where it can pass FPC a second time around, because presumably, the first time it was nominated, all those involved in FPC would have attempted to make improvements to the image already. ♠ SG →Talk 22:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I do not see how this template would benifit the community. If for some reason this information was needed the image should always have the vote page in the list of what links here. However I do like John Reid's idea an await the results of his efforts. HighInBC 00:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Change to result on Supermarine Spitfire XVI

I changed the promoted edit as per discussion here. Final tally was as follows: Original - 2
Edit 1 - 0
Edit 2 - 6
Edit 3 - 3
Edit 2/3 - 1
Edit 4 - 8
Edit 5 - 0
Any edit - 3 --Fir0002 10:06, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Should it be taken into account that five voters (including the photographer) were explicitly opposed to promoting edit 4? --KFP (talk | contribs) 13:48, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Well see I don't think so. Because for my part I would be opposed to the other edits, but I don't explicitly state the fact, because by saying that I support Edit 4, you can assume I oppose other edits (unless I say that I support 1 or more edits) --Fir0002 07:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I am not happy with this. You also cannot take into account AndonicO's vote, it was changed after the nomination was closed. chowells 17:19, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I count 7 votes for edit 2, which is the same number as edit 4 if we ignore the person who voted after the nomination closed. I prefer edit 2 over edit 4, therefore I suggest edit 2 should remain the promoted image. chowells 17:36, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Well to tell you the truth the nom shouldn't have been closed at that stage as I put it in the suspended nominations area so that people could have the chance to specify their preferences. Btw chowells, reverting all my edits without discussin it wasn't the best way to go about it. --Fir0002 07:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Well my 2 cents is that I put forward a pretty persuasive reason why Edit 4 and 5 are not the best edits. For the most part they were not rebutted (see talk page of the nomination), and that should be considered in the verdict, since it is not just about totals but about arguments for and against as well. I'll summarise again: There were artifacts added (presumably as an unwanted quirky side effect to the processing done) to the image in Edit 4 and as these were not present in the original (we're not talking about basic shadow/colour enhancement here, it was actual detail of the plane itself that was changed), I don't think the edits are encyclopedic, even if they were supported by some wikipedians. I suspect some of the supporters of edit 4 did not thoroughly read the discussion and based their judgement on a summary viewing of the image. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 19:02, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Likewise I felt I put up a pretty persausive argument why Edit 4 was superior. I didn't even start to point out the flaws in the other edits, merely defended mine. --Fir0002 07:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
As I said though, the flaws in your edit were such that they were unencyclopaedic and, if we were to take a hard line on the matter, should automatically be disqualified for that reason. I'm not going that far, but what I am saying is that given the two edits, minor aesthetic quibbles should take a backseat to the much greater issue of authenticity. As can be clearly shown, your edits have major elements not present in the original and are therefore not suitable to accurately portray the subject. As for your persuasive arguments about edit 4, can you summarise them? Because for all the talk, I didn't really see any persuasive arguments other than your claim that it "just looks better" on the candidacy talk page. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 09:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Do we really need to go through this again? What are the major elements missing in my edit? Everythings there! Unless you are referring to the cockpit as being a missing element - which really is bordering on the ridiculous. And yes the salient point is that not only did my edit significantly lift the shadows, it gave the image a heck of a lot more Wow factor - probably the key reason for making an edit! --Fir0002 22:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Well no we don't, but then again, we didn't really discuss why yours was better in great detail in the past either. Lets just leave it as a difference of opinion for now. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 07:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Besides, voters for original and 3 should be asked to reconsider. This would be a perfect place for an elected Featured Picture Director. NauticaShades 21:03, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Why should voters for original/edit 3 be asked to reconsider? They have stated their preference. --Fir0002 07:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Because there are too little votes for them, and there is no chance they will be promoted. This isn't really WP:SNOW, but that's the general idea. NauticaShades 19:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Just for the record, the other half of the discussion can be found on Fir0002's talk page. ♠ SG →Talk 04:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • IMO, Oppose votes for any edit should be weighed -2, just as for votes for the nom itself. --Janke | Talk 06:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Well see I'd disagree. Because specifically supporting one edit implies you are opposing the other edits (for instance I would oppose the promotion of any other edit but the one I specified). And I would tend to think others would feel the same as there were several "strong" supports for Edit 4. In addition, when I had contacted the various users who hadn't specified thier preferences, Andonic replied a little late (premature closing of nom) with "I've changed my vote for edit 4, but I noticed edit 2, a slightly inferior edit, has already been promoted". Clearly there is significant support for Edit 4 --Fir0002 22:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
No, opposes only apply if the person specifies that they oppose a particular edit, by previous precedent. -- Moondigger 23:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh really? Can you point that precedent out to me - I didn't know about it. If so than be all means revert back to Edit 2, and I apologise for the trouble. However if not, I stand by the fact that the edit promted should be changed. --Fir0002 07:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
This might not mean much, but when I say I support a certain edit, it means I'm fine with the rest of them, also. I only oppose other edits when I actually oppose them. In case, I opposed edits 4 and 5. NauticaShades 07:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Precedent is not policy, but it can (and should) be used as a guideline when policy does not address a given situation. I have only been paying attention to FPC for 4-5 months now, but in all that time opposes are only counted if they are stated as opposes. I have never assumed that support for an edit automatically means opposition to all other edits, and I don't believe others here have either. That's precedent.-- Moondigger 14:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Agree. I'm fairly sure that nominations have always been closed that way. I certainly wouldn't want my support for a particular edit to be interpreted by default as all others being opposed. "Support edit xx" should just be an expression of preference for one edit. I will directly oppose others if, and only if, I feel strongly enough about them, such as with this nomination. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 15:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Just for the sake of argument, let's re-tally the vote according to Fir0002's understanding, in which votes for a particular edit are counted as votes against all other edits as well. Here are his own numbers, copied from above:
Original - 2
Edit 1 - 0
Edit 2 - 6
Edit 3 - 3
Edit 2/3 - 1
Edit 4 - 8
Edit 5 - 0
Any edit - 3
  • Doing so reveals that NO version of this image has consensus, since even Edit 4's 11 support votes (8 explicit + 3 "any edit") are easily offset by its 10 oppose votes (votes for other edits, which Fir0002 claims should count as votes against Edit 4). +11/-10 is well short of the 2/3 supermajority we use as a basic guideline. Previous precedent demonstrates that votes specifying support for a particular candidate image cannot be counted as votes against all other edits, otherwise it would be rare indeed for any image with more than one edit available to achieve consensus. -- Moondigger 22:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok that makes perfect sense. Thanks for clarifying this issue and sorry for the bother --Fir0002 22:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I know this discussion is more or less over, but I just wanted to tally with oppoose votes counting against edits:
Original - 2
Edit 1 - 0
Edit 2 - 9
Edit 3 - 5
Edit 4 - 5
Edit 5 - -2
Any edit - 6

We see here that edit 2 is the clear winner. On a side not, although Bridgecorss' vote actually supports edit 4, I put it as supporting edit 2 because he/she states their preference for 2 later on. Even if you put it back to 4, however, edit 2 still wins. NauticaShades 14:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Frankly, I have no idea why this is even being discussed. Overturning the closer's decision requires consensus to do so, unless the closer's decision was blatantly contrary to general consensus. The closer also has some leeway to assign weight to the various comments when making his/her decision. I didn't participate in the Spitfire discussion or vote on it. As an outside observer to this particular closing I believe it should be left as is. -- Moondigger 23:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Agree, especially since the overturner is an "interested party"... --Janke | Talk 06:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
People should be passionate about their work, if he didn't discuss it how would he achieve consensus? -Ravedave (help name my baby) 02:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I can understand wanting to discuss it, but from what I can tell he discussed it briefly on the closer's talk page, and then made the change before initiating the conversation about it here, where the FPC watchers might notice it and have a chance to discuss it. However I understand that your comment is probably meant in reply to my "Frankly, I have no idea..." statement. That said, the original closer made his reasoning clear as to why he promoted the particular edit he did, and nothing about it struck me as fishy. -- Moondigger 04:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

FP director proposal

Proposal: Election of a Featured pictures director for a term of N (to be decided) months to perform the following duties:

  1. Decide if a picture is promoted or not (with absolute authority, unless re-nominated). Decide which edit is the best if there are multiple edits.
  2. Remove personal attacks/un-civil votes. Make sure new users feel welcome.
  3. Gate keep the rules page.
  4. Be the contact point when sock puppets are suspected.
  5. Prevent link spamming/advertising causing pictures to be promoted.

The election would be performed as follows:

  1. 1 week for nominations
  2. 2 weeks for voting
  3. Nominees would be allowed a small paragraph explaining qualifications
  4. Voting type will be approval voting, there will be no opposes
  5. Candidate with the most support votes wins.


This poll will be left open for one week (unless someone proposes a longer period)

Proposed term

Other suggestions

  • If the director will be the contact point for sock puppets etc, does that mean he/she should be an admin so that they can block the sockpuppet? --Fir0002 07:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't think that the FP director should decided every time if it is not promoted or not, we should just call on him/her if there is a contested vote. NauticaShades 14:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree with Nauticashades. I will support having a featured pictures director, however, the first clause needs to be changed to something like this:
    1. Nominations may be closed by any user, just as it is now. However, when a nomination result is contested or consensus cannot be reached, the featured picture director should be called in for the final decision (with absolute authority, unless re-nominated). ♠ SG →Talk 22:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Support

  1. Ravedave (help name my baby) 02:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

If you believe a director with a smaller set of responsibilities would be the key, please suggest what their role would be.

  1. --Fir0002 07:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  2. WP:NOT... a democracy - I don't understand how this could possibly be better than the existing system. Discussions like the one above show that community consensus, achieved through consideration of each case on its individual merits, is more powerful than a single user with absolute discretion. Giving one user the right to a 'final say' either way would surely lead to more contested closings, not less, and probably also lead to the Director suffering an unfair share of the personal abuse that sadly we sometimes see here. The first three duties above are, IMO, bound to be more effectively carried out by the community than by a single user; "making new users feel welcome", for example, should be something we're all responsible for. While I can perhaps see a need for better oversight of nominations subject to 'hijacking' by interested parties who otherwise take no interest in the FPC process, I can't see how a single user would be better able to do this, either. I'd be sad to see FPC move in this direction. --YFB ¿ 11:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Unfortunatly we fail miserably. How many times have you seen "Is this a joke?" etc said to new submitters? It is rarely, if ever, removed. I would say until now a large amount of chastising rude people has come from me and I am sick of doing it without the ability to flat out remove the vote. I have seen it far too many times. Also changes to the WIAFP page happen after 2 or 3 people agree on something, far below community support. Changes for the last few months [3] -Ravedave (help name my baby) 14:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
      • I agree, we are failing. I think what is needed is a concerted effort on the part of the 'regulars' to maintain a friendly, open environment and collectively to deal with rudeness/incivility promptly. Perhaps a discussion is needed about 'removing votes' - maybe a change to the rules to allow anyone to remove rude comments but to replace them with a note that an uncivil comment was removed and a link to the diff? Then the deletion would be transparent and open to reversal if widely contested. As far as WIAFP goes, I can't see any significant changes in the diff you provided that seem to go against what I understand to be the accepted norm - mostly they're just elaborations and clarifications of what was there previously (although I dislike the wording of the addition to the 'Add value to an article' section). Maybe we should periodically call a review of the WIAFP to ensure consensus supports the current incarnation of the page, make it 'task of the week' or something? I agree that FPC isn't perfect at present, but I just don't see that appointing a Director would significantly improve things - and it might just cause more trouble. --YFB ¿ 16:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  3. .. I agree with much of what YFB said. Although there are the occasional issues with contested promotions, sock puppets and other issues, I'm not sure what the problem is with the current situation of it all being communally policed. I'm not wholeheartedly against the idea of this director, I just don't feel it is necessary. Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 11:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  4. Huh? Why do we need an extra layer of bureaucracy? There's not even a "There is problem X, hence we need an FP director" in the vote above. There would have to be a pretty major problem to introduce something like this. I don't understand the responsibility of "Prevent link spamming/advertising causing pictures to be promoted." - has this ever happened? If people would use common sense, and use the original meaning of consensus (rather than some numerical value), then this basically couldn't happen. A more relaxed system, like at present, where various clueful people share the responsibility is better. At worst, we could institute a guideline where someone can challenge the impartiality of the person closing the nomination, and insist that someone else do it. Stevage 03:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  5. I oppose because I do not see an existing problem to be fixed. I also do not beleive any extra authority is required for this job. I would support a person who's job was to organize, but not to make any sort of final choice. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 14:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  6. A solution that needs a problem. enochlau (talk) 08:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Why do we bother having FPs from NASA, the US military etc?

Can someone explain to me the value of having FP's that come from outside the Wikipedia community? The value of FP's created by Wikipedians is clear: it motivates people to produce more images, and draws attention to the best of our images, improving our reputation. But what's the value in stamping some NASA satellite photo "featured picture"? Is there any? Stevage 03:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there is, if it fulfills the requirements for a FP, mainly: being informative, encyclopedic, eyecatching and nice looking. --Janke | Talk 05:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
not every subject can get self published images and FP from others sources(NASA, USGS etc) also encourages editors to find the best available images Gnangarra 05:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Janke, that's a recursive explanation: an FP should be an FP because it meeds the FP requirements! But why do we want FPs at all? Why do we spend our time doing this? Gnangarra at least offers an explanation - motivating people to go and find more good images - but does it really have a major effect? Stevage 02:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Ask the same question of a Featured Article. Should the encyclopedia prevent a hypothetical article from being featured because we copied it from a public domain or GFDL source, and it was already a thing of beauty? –Outriggr § 05:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
As far as I see it, FP exists to encourage contributors of great images. Whether that contribution is a photo someone took themselves or a freely-licensed photo found from another source, it's still equally valuable to us. I don't see what we would gain by restricting FPs in this way. Raven4x4x 11:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Agree completely. It is all about the image, not about the source. We can be more or less judgemental of an image based on how reproducible/unique it is. If it is a once-in-a-lifetime shot taken by NASA, why should we disregard it? Diliff | (Talk) (Contribs) 14:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Anyone who releases something to a compatable license is a wikipedia contributor. Remember our stated goal is to create an encyclopedia, forming a community is secondary. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 15:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Just as a note, the FP proccess encouraged me to go to NASA and upload these(Image:Whole world - land and oceans 12000.jpg and Image:Orion Nebula - Hubble 2006 mosaic 18000.jpg) larger versions of two pictures to Wikipedia. I probably would not have gotten to it if not for the FP proccess. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 15:10, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, those seem like pretty reasonable answers, thanks very much. Stevage 23:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Reopen discussion

Sorry, missed this originally. I couldn't agree with Stevage's original point more. And despite everyone disagreeing with him, I don't think anyone has adequately answered him.

How on earth do these images from external sources address Wikipedia:What is a featured picture? Criterion 3, namely:

Be Wikipedia's best work. It should be a photograph, diagram, image or animation that exemplifies Wikipedia's very best work. It should represent what Wikipedia offers that is unique on the Internet.

Anything sourced from an external site, be it NASA, flickr, or whatever, is clearly NOT unique on the internet - it originates from a source other than Wikipedia. Therefore it should not be nominated and should not become a FP. Or is this criterion totally wrong?

Sure, images sourced from other places such may be useful for Wikipedia. By all means upload them and place them in articles, but it doesn't mean they have to be FPs (just as I have placed many useful images of my own in articles that would never qualify as FPs).

It begs the question of whether people are collecting and adding these images to improve the encyclopaedia, or just to put their name beside them, bump up 'their' FP count, and gain some vicarious glory thereby. --jjron 15:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I can see both sides here. However in the end I think it comes down to this: We should feature outstanding pictures, period. A featured picture should make people take notice, and many of the NASA (etc) pictures do that. The vast majority of readers here don't care where an image came from -- they only know that they like or dislike them. Frankly, I think it would be strange to never have a Hubble image on the front page. It's pretty hard to justify featuring something like this and not something like this . (I'm not trying to pick on anybody here... just pointing out the juxtaposition.)
Besides, if bumping up one's FP "count" is so important to somebody, who cares? They can only bump their count if there is a consensus to do so, and their desire to bump their FP count up makes the encyclopedia better, IMO. What I'm saying here is that their motives don't matter as long as the result is to improve Wikipedia. -- Moondigger 16:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


Good point, I don't think it should be a criterion that it be unique to Wikipeida. In practice we don't use that criterion, I will propose it be removed down below HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 15:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Shuffle delisting

I have to register an objection to the delist nomination of the shuffle picture. It seems to be a backdoor attempt to get one user's desired result. Now I didn't vote on this one and I don't think I care either way about it, but my objection is purely on procedural grounds. The way I feel about it is, the picture had its due process: It was nominated and the nomination stood for a week and it passed with a supermajority of support, albeit just barely. IMHO anyone who has objections should have made them during the nomination process. I agree with Moondigger that the time difference between promotion and delist nomination is unimportant. I also agree that the pics should be judged based on their merits, but that should be during the nomination process.

In general, I feel that existing FPs, regardless of their time of promotion, should only be delisted for blatantly not meeting the WP:WIAFP criteria as they are written at the time of delisting. Purely subjective measures should not be the basis. In other words, we should respect the consensus of the users who promoted the image in the first place. The only basis for delist nomination should be that there's no way in hell the image would get promoted now if the nomination were to take place today. The shuffle pic is a borderline case, but it made it through the process, so let it stand.

Thoughts? howcheng {chat} 16:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I assume the person who nominated it for delisting was unaware that it had just passed. If the person was aware then I would see it as a bad faith nomination. Regardless, it is clear that it will not be delisted as people want to keep it. HighInBC (Need help? Ask me) 14:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, the person who nominated most likely knew it had just passed because they were one of the 3 oppose votes.--Andrew c 23:53, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
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