Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Eskimodog

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[edit] eskimodog

Its an amazing dog with its capablities, but this photo does not truly capture the dog whatsoever. Unencyclopedic. Also grainy surrounding the dog and background is considerably blurred.

• Nominate and Delist. - AJ24 20:58, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. Have you mentioned on the nominator's or uploader's talk page that you've nominated this for delisting? --Bagginz 21:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment from uploader: No, he didn't. I am disappointed that AJ24 didn't inform me of the proposed delisting, despite the instructions in boldface above.
      AJ24, why do you say the picture is "unencyclopedic"? It was taken specifically for Wikipedia, to replace the previous breed picture (which was horrible--tiny, distorted, highly compressed--and has since been deleted). It displays the dog, as a representative of his breed, as best as I could manage. The background was chosen to be (a) a contrasting color, and (b) uninteresting, since it was not the subject of the picture; it was not intended to be in focus.
      I was flattered to have this picture nominated for FP, and honored to have it selected. Having had the blown highlights pointed out to me, I don't personally feel they detract from the picture; the dog is, after all, white. -- Robert Southworth 02:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
      P.S. Keep. -- Robert Southworth 08:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
      • As I mention below, the dog really ought to be standing, not seated. There are many aspects of breed standard that aren't able to be seen when a dog is seated. As far as a Featured Picture is concerned, I think any shot of a dog breed should taken to best illustrate breed standard. This is an attractive image, and one that is of use to the article, but it is honestly not the most encyclopedic pose you could have used. I'd support a similar image with the dog standing on all fours. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 19:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
        • The question was directed at AJ24. I'd like to hear hir reasoning for the "unencyclopedic" comment, as well as an explanation as to why hie didn't tell the uploader, Robert Southworth, or the original nominator, Sango123, on their talk pages that the picture was nominated for delisting. With all the talk about high standards for content around here, I'd like to see something about conduct.
          
          As far as the pose of the dog is concerned, yes, as you note below, they do judge dogs on all fours. They get that pose by a choke chain at one end and holding the tail at the other so that some lady with big hair can feel its muscles and look at its teeth -- very contrived and not photogenic. The pose above is no less encyclopedic than the photo of the Mexican Gray Wolf above (which you enthusiatically supported), and no less illustrative. Where does it say that an FP about a dog has to meet standards set by the American Kennel Club? The American Eskimo Dog article is about a breed, not a breed-standard checklist. If this picture were illustrative of something else about the breed (like its disposition), or used to compare the coats of different dogs (as is done here and here), then by the standard you're proposing, such a photo would be automatically disqualified to be serious FP candidate material. --Bagginz 07:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
          • There are a myriad of ways to get a dog to stand on all fours, the method used at a dog show is not the only way (and I would agree would likely make for an unattractive photo), my dog used to be able to stand on command... certainly long enough to snap a photo or two. The pose *is* less encyclopedic than the Mexican Gray Wolf one because a breed of dog (which is the stated subject of the photo at hand) is defined by a breed standard. If you are going to illustrate an Eskimo Dog, one might wish to see (for example) the curled tail (a very important and highly-identifiable aspect of the breed) which this image masks. It is not 'written' that an FP about a dog has to meet standards set by the American Kennel Club... nor did I suggest that it was. I said that my standard for judging an FPC about a breed of dog (not just a photo with a dog in it) was that it should be in a pose that was encyclopedic (i.e., one that lets you see the characterists of the breed). I also never mentioned the AKC, but they do have useful text descriptions of their stated breed standards. Also, if the photo is not about the breed, but about the coat or the dispostion, then the picture would need to be encyclopedic for the relevant subject. Bottom-line, you want a photo of an American Eskimo Dog to be featured and I think that you should (for example) be able to see the curled tail. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
            • Thanks for your reply, and kindly stop SHOUTING. First, it's great that you could get your dog to stand in one place long enough for "a photo or two," but that's not my experience. A good picture at a good angle takes a long time and a lot more than a couple of shutter clicks. Volunteer work I did with an Eskie rescue usually involved taking at least a dozen photos of each dog to find ones that were good enough even for the modest purposes of Petfinder.com. Second, I apologize for not understanding that your argument is about "breed" pictures per se, but you did write, for a featured picture, "any shot of a dog breed should be taken to best illustrate breed standard." This, and the earlier reference to judging dogs at a dog show led to the comment involving the AKC.
              
              That said, I think you're splitting fur and your use of "encyclopedic" in this context is too restrictive and arbitrary. I would argue that for a picture to be "encyclopedic" about a dog breed, it only needs enough information to identify the breed, just like a picture of a Mexican Gray Wolf be what a Mexican Gray Wolf looks like. Even a head shot can be "encyclopedic enough." While the curled tail over the backside is a defining characteristic of Eskies (because it's a spitz), it is not the only defining characteristic nor is it a necessary one for identification. If the picture were about spitzes in general, you might have a point, but here an insistence on seeing the tail is overkill. Example: Of the six cover photos on the American Eskimo Dog "How To" books I found at Amazon.com, four of them had the dogs seated or otherwise not showing their tails. Yet the dogs were immediately recognizable as Eskies and I would think the cover photo of such dog books are designed to be "encyclopedic."
              
              You're certainly entitled to your standards, but to me, a sitting dog is no disqualifier from it being in a "breed" FP. American Eskimo Dog is a perfectly appropriate caption for the above. It wouldn't be more encyclopedic to re-caption it, The Fluffy White Coat of the American Eskimo Dog, or American Eskimo Dog Happy To Have Been Given The 'Sit' Command, or Non-Samoyed White Canine Furball.
              
              My apologies for the length of my remarks. --Bagginz 09:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
              • First, let me apologize for "shouting". I assumed that the capitalization would be taken as it was intended (emphasis), and not as shouting. Normally, when one is shouting, one shouts entire phrases or sentences, not isolated words. I assumed that you would be familiar with this convention. I'll take care in the future to not automatically assume that you'll understand me. As I have no wish to damage your hearing by shouting so loudly, I've replaced the capitalized words in my previous message with italics (with the exception of words that are capitalized because they are acronyms). I hope this is more to your liking.
                
                Secondly, I am sorry to hear that such a great number of pet owners don't feel the responsibility to properly train their pets, but I cannot believe that it takes "a long time" to take shots of standing dogs. One of the Wikipedia pages that you referred to above (this one) shows many shots of standing dogs which seem to fit the description that I gave. In case you weren't able to notice them, I'll give you a few examples: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] are a few.
                
                You wrote: I apologize for not understanding that your argument is about "breed" pictures per se, but you did write, for a featured picture, "any shot of a dog breed should be taken to best illustrate breed standard." This, and the earlier reference to judging dogs at a dog show led to the comment involving the AKC.... I can see how you might have been confused about my position on photos about dog breeds. I thought that by saying 'any shot of a dog breed' you would understand that I meant 'dog breed' and not 'dog'. There are many images with dogs in them, but not as many that attempt to illustrate a specific breed. I also thought the reference to breed standard would make it apparent that I was talking about photos dealing with illustrating a breed, and not just a random photo that might have a dog in it. Again, my apologies for confusing you. As far as the bit where my reference to dog shows led you to reference the AKC, you may not be aware of this, but there are actually a number of organizations around the world that hold dog shows. You may wish to review the Wikipedia articles kennel club and conformation show for more information on this issue.
                
                I understand your position on a breed photo only needing to have just enough information to identify the breed (extraneous details like key/notable physical features being unnecessary), allow me to suggets that for an image to be a Featured Picture it might be preferable to be able to see (perhaps) all of the key features of a given breed... in the case of the AED (a spitz, as you've noted), this includes (as per my suggestion) the curled tail. I'm not entirely certain what relevance the books that you found on Amazon.com have to the discussion, as I'm assuming that most of those books are not encyclopedias (since you referred to them as 'how-to' books).
                
                Thank you for recognizing that I'm entitled to my standards... as you are to yours. As for alternative captions, while the ones you've listed do have a certain charm, please consider these as well: Attractive Photo Of A Dog That Unfortuntely Masks One Of The Key Features Of The Breed, Photo Of A Dog With Serious Technical Flaws (Such As Blown Highlights On The Subject), or (my personal favorite) This Is Not A Photo Of A Fire-Truck.
                
                My apologies if any of the above seems condescending, but since you didn't seem to understand a few of my earlier points, I thought it best to err on the side of caution. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 21:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
                • Condescending? Dante, your abundance of caution positively dribbles with altruism. Alas, your fears for my noggin's density are a little misplaced. I understand your positions, I just don't agree with them. Emphasizing words by capitalizing all the letters (in the way you did before your edits) has been considered rude "shouting" since the days of Usenet, but standards may have changed. I know what an acronym is--I don't need a link, thanks. I'm aware that the AKC is not the only organization that holds beauty pageants of expensive doggies. And while I appreciate your "apology-if-necessary" on the condescension, I'm not upset and you needn't worry; I'm not going to metaphorically chew up your couch, pee on your carpet, or set fire to a bag of American Eskimo Dogshit on your doorstep.
                  
                  I started to write an entry on how my positions have been misread and misstated, and why some of the examples you've just provided don't really buttress your arguments. I'm prepared to finish the entry and post it if anyone asks. But out of (un)common decency towards the denizens of Wikipedia, I'll shut up here in the hopes of a little less tempest in this teapot, and agree to disagree. Still, like my dog, I might start yapping again if somebody knocks on my door a little too loudly. :-) --Bagginz 03:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
    • I agree with Dante. Even in order to be an image suitable for the "American Eskimo Dog" article page there must be an image of the dog where its full body is visible. To be frank, if the image is not good enough for its article page it is most definitely not worthy of FP status. Even if it was upright on all fours, it still must be posed in a way where the dog's proportions, size, and shape are clearly visible. In no way does the current photograph enable any of those necessities. I am unnerved that an image such as this can slip through the 7-day process of FPCandidates. This is one of those images that if it was nominated today, it would not be accepted. -- AJ24 15:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

• Delist. The blurred background is a plus, since the subject is the dog and not the background. However his back is one giant blown highlight. Cute dog, but not FP material. -- moondigger 21:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. If this photo isn't encyclopedic of American Eskimo Dog, than what would be? --Pharaoh Hound (talk) 12:22, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I disagree with AJ24 about it being unencyclopedic -- as you point out, it's a picture of a particular breed of dog used on that breed's article. But encyclopedic does not automatically equal feature-worthy. The blown highlights violate "be of high quality," and it's otherwise a routine photo (i.e., not "Wikipedia's best work"). -- moondigger 14:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, IMHO featureworthy -- Chris 73 | Talk 13:30, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
• Comment A blurry background is not a bad thing; in many cases, it's actually quite desirable. Nota bene bokeh : "For example, causing an out-of-focus background image may reduce distractions and emphasize the primary subject." Tokugawapants 16:45, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
  • IMO the background isn't enough out of focus ! What's that "sharpness everywhere" madness ? Ericd 12:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Captures the dog perfectly. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 11:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delist. Blown highlights. Also, I think that a standing pose would be more encyclopedic than a seated pose. There's a reason that they judge dogs standing on all fours at dog shows. There are many aspects of 'breed standard' that are impossible to discern on a seated dog. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 19:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
• delist not quite an FP quality
• Keep. Agree with Samsara that it captures the dog perfectly, even if seated. --Bagginz 21:06, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
• Delist. It's such a beautiful dog I wish I didn't have to delist it, but there's no valid argument for keeping it. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) 23:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Retained. 5 Delist, 4 Keep --Fir0002 10:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)