Wikipedia:Featured article review/Superman

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[edit] Superman

Messages left at Modemac, Comics, Superman and Films. Sandy (Talk) 22:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I love Superman but this article has insufficient cites. Wiki-newbie 17:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Article has a large references section, actually. Steve block Talk 21:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
  • It seems like it doesn't clearly define where it is getting its information. It has a large reference list, but it doesn't say what goes where. It almost seems like some original research edits have taken over the article in places: Like "It is implied in the One Year Later Superman story.." is an example. It appears to draw conclusions as to what the "One Year Later" story is saying. I don't know if this is just incorrect writing, and the "One Year Later" story was clear in its meaning (i don't know, because I haven't read it) but trying to guess what a story is "implying" seems a bit OR to me. I think that is the value behind "in text citations", because it's easy to check sources (at least the online ones). Bignole 23:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, my. The cleanup tag says it best. Yikes. If anyone is willing to dig in, I'll supply a long list. Sandy (Talk) 00:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Gimme. WesleyDodds 10:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, a list would be helpful. Steve block Talk 13:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The article is getting lots of cite tags. Wiki-newbie 15:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Finding sources where I can. Steve block Talk 17:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

List

• Ineffective use of Summary style and incorrect use of template tags. The overall article size is fine at 72KB, but because the article is undercited, most of that KB is in prose, with prose at a whopping 53KB. Too much of the prose is taken up with re-telling the Superman story, and not enough encyclopedic content; the article needs about a 10KB reduction in prose.
• Several of the summary templates are the Main template, when the daughter articles are not summarized back to the main article. Summary style could be better used, or at least some of the templates switched to Further info or See also.
• The lead is two paragraphs, one long. An article of this size warrants a three or four-paragraph lead, and the lead needs to be rewritten to adequately summarize the article.
• Notes - it's hard to tell what is going on - they are numbered to 11, and then start over again at 1. Some of the notes are just blue links that need to be expanded.
• References - it's not clear that these are actually references - some of them may need to be pruned, or may be better listed as External links. If they are References, they should be expanded to include full biblio information, and last access date.
• Additional reading is a curious mix of See also, Further reading, and External links (or external jumps). It uses no consistent style, should be cleaned up, with each entry allocated to the correct category (External link, See also, or Further reading). See WP:LAYOUT
• ISBNs on all books, last access dates on all websites.
• Two entire sections (at least) are very speculative, ORish, weasly, and largely uncited : Superman in popular culture, and Cultural influences. Can't these two sections be merged, and summarized from a daughter article, since the article is too long? A lot of the info in those two sections needs to be cited, or deleted.
• The overall article organization is strange and rambling, bouncing from topic to topic. We usually find awards listed almost last, just above See also (by the way, since awards is basically empty, it should be expanded or deleted). There are multiple sections covering characters, and they're all over place, in no overall order that makes sense. A restructuring of the article may help cut down the bloated prose size.
• An example of Summary style/template issues is found in the section, Powers and abilities. It says the main article is Powers and abilities of Superman, but the content summarized back to this article is very large, and it doesn't appear to be a summary of that article. Summary style is not used correctly or effectively.
• There is strange and sporadic use of bolding in the article.
• There are many needs for citation, and more that can be added as work progresses. I added some very obvious cite needed tags to the Cultural sections.
• I'll fix footnotes per WP:FN, where to place ref tags next, but there aren't many to fix.
• External jumps (mostly in the Progeny section) need to be corrected by converting them to Wikified text or referenced text.
• This is not compelling prose, for example: "Comedian Jerry Seinfeld is known to be a very big Superman fan.[citation needed] In many episodes of Seinfeld, there are many references to Superman in addition to various memorabilia placed in Jerry's apartment."
• Once the entire article is reorganized and rewritten, Wikilinking needs attention. Unimportant words shouldn't be linked, and words should be linked on first occurrence. For example, the word Kryptonian is linked repeatedly.
• Extensive inline comments and questions which should be dealt with.
• I see there is an External link to the DMOZ category on Superman: pls review other external links, and eliminate them if they are already listed at DMOZ.
• Mixed reference styles - there are some Harvard-style inline references that need to be converted to cite.php.

There is an edit summary which says, "(Cleaned up some stuff. Is this article's condition really bad enough to merit that "quality standards" tag?)" Yes.

Once some of these structural issues are addressed, a closer look at the prose would be beneficial. Sandy (Talk) 01:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You mentioned the reference sections going 1-11, then starting over. I believe someone has add trivia to the notes section thinking that was where it should be added, and not realizing that it was a place for in-text citations. It should probably just be removed (maybe better place if it can be..didn't read through all of it to see how encyclopedic). Bignole 01:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

My main concern is with the fictional biography. It needs to be written more in the style of Batman's (simply the best comics article around), summarising the main points. Wiki-newbie 10:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I would devote time to it, but right now I'm overseas. I'll be back home in over a week, so here's hoping someone can help substantially with that section. It helped when I was reworking the Batman article that I had the Les Daniels book on hand. The author released a companion book for Superman a year before the Batman book (1998, Superman's 60 anniversary), and it should be widely available at libraries and bookstores for those who want to take a crack at it. WesleyDodds 11:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I've got a family funeral to prepare for, but I'm going to nab the book from the library within the week, it's not in my local one so I'll have to run around to get it. Sandy, do we still get an extension if we are showing good faith in improving the article? I don't really dispute any of the concerns to the point that it makes a difference this second, but I'm willing to put the work in, it's just this review is perhaps at the worst possible time in the calendar year. I'm thinking it may be an idea to work this one up in a temp page, because it gets hit by vandals quite badly, which makes progress even harder. Any thoughts or objections? Steve block Talk 13:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

We always give extensions when we know people are working on it and retaining status is within the realm of possibility, but since so many of you are busy in real life, please be sure to keep us posted - we have defeatured articles when we get no feedback for several weeks and see no progress, and then people are mad at us :-) Keep us posted, so we *know* there's progress. There's a lot to be done. As I have time, I'll see if there's anything on the list I can do. Sandy (Talk) 15:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've had a bash at the further reading, see also and external links, but please feel free to take it further. I'm not sure how many fictional works we should have in the further reading, I'm worried it will become a dumping ground for every story ever written about Superman. I've tried to keep it to the works typically considered important parts of the canon, but I'm open to other people's thinking on that. Off to make dinner. Probably won't be back until middle of next week, but I hope to be armed with some good reference works. Steve block Talk 17:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and took care of the "Kryptonian" linking. I left the Infobox's link and the link in the "Golden Age" section. Bignole 19:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you think we could take out a lot of the examples of Superman's abilities, from the "Powers and Abilities" section? I've read some things that I believed were either unnecessary or OR, and some of them were examples of his powers (ex. His powers have again increased, he can now throw mountains......). I'm not a frequent editor of this page, so I don't want to step on other's toes by jumping at things. Bignole 20:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

My "opinion" is that it would be more effective to first trim and reorganize a LOT of the text, before referencing and wikilinking. A LOT of content needs to go to daughter articles, or should just be deleted. It will be easier to work on a trimmer article. Sandy (Talk) 22:02, 8 December 2006 (UTC)