Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Elliott Smith/archive1

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[edit] Elliott Smith

A very well written article, that includes many sources. It is the best article, out of all the offical bios.

• Comment: Haven't read through the entire thing, but right off the bat, I see that lead may cause some controversy. "Elliott Smith... deemed by many fans and peers to be one of his generation's most gifted songwriters". I think this may be a misrepresentation, as the article clearly states that it was his own record label that said that, in response to his death! Now, I don't mean to be bashing this person, nor am I saying that that statement is necessarily wrong, but it may be a little on the POV side. Can you substantiate this a little better? If you can't, it should be removed or changed. --P-Chan 03:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC). I'm now going to Object, as the point that my last comment was refering to should definetly be addressed next time this article goes up for an FA.--P-Chan 21:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Object. Close, but the trivia section will have to be merged into other areas of the article, and the lead section should be expanded. However, it's much better than the aver musician article on wiki. With a bit of hard work, this can be made FA standard within the nom time. RyanGerbil10 (Drop on in!) 06:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Object Not bad, but a few problems. For starters, there's a few places where "citation needed" is inserted. The lead section could use a bit more text (not a blocking objection). Moving the full discography to a separate article is OK, but I would expect at least some of it to remain in the main article, a "Selected discography". Also I think we could do without the section of trivia and cultural references in their current (list) form. Jeronimo 07:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Object—2a. In some ways, it's not badly written. However, it's not good enough yet. With just an hour's work by a good editor, it will satisfy the explicit requirement of this criterion. Here are examples from the top.
• Three stubby little paragraphs don't make a lead. The paragraphing throughout tends to be choppy. Our readers need smooth flow.
• Do I care that he was born at 12:59am?
• "who was allegedly abusive"—Begs for a reference, even though (I think) you're saying that it's in his lyrics.
• "the majority of the album"—grammar.
• "were in attendance"—can't this be simply "attended"? Someone distant from the writing process needs to go through it and weed out redundancies such as this. Here's another: "he had just written it earlier that day"—Which word can go?
• "the record contained a style"? Unidiomatic.
• "invited onstage"—unsure whether onstage is correct here as one word. Please check. Tony 15:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Object

1. "The evidence surrounding his death is still inconclusive. [2]": the reference is two and a half years old. Can this be brought up to date?
2. "This time seems to have impacted Smith immensely": this is speculative interpretation, not encyclopedic writing.
3. "Some speculate it came from the name of a street in Portland, while others believe it to be an idea of his then-girlfriend, who derived it from the last name of her ex-boyfriend. [7]" Again, speculation.
4. "'It was weird because it was black, but when it got rolled on, it turned silver and started reflecting the sun up at you. I got incredibly sunburned, and I had no idea.'": If this has any place in an encyclopedia article, it needs a lot of explanation. Please remove this or explain why it is important.
5. "He was told that anything he requested would be fine, but, a chair would not be granted.": What does this tell us about Elliott Smith?
6. "Smith never voiced disappointment about his loss - if anything, he seemed relieved." Seemed to whom? Can we get a reference for this, or is it just a Wikipedian's assessment of the mood of the subject?
7. "He is also rumored to have recorded a version of "Hey Jude" for the film Royal Tenenbaums to be played during the opening scenes. However, the singer's version of the song was dropped and replaced by an instrumental. No recording or hard evidence of this version existing has yet surfaced.": rumors and speculation. Not encyclopedic.
8. "and proceeded to jump off a cliff.": does this mean something more than "and jumped off a cliff"?
9. "Nugent's book says that during this time, Smith hardly ever ate, subsisting primarily on ice cream (bizarrely, it was the only thing that he kept in his freezer).": did Nugent's book use the word "bizarrely" or is it the Wikipedia author's judgement? If it's a quote, it should be marked accordingly; if it's the Wikipedia author's description, it should be removed.
10. "the investigation into his death continues [2]": Again, this footnote is 2 1/2 years old; we need an update or closure.
11. "The producer also noted that the track "Ostriches & Chirping", a strange and short instrumental made from sampling and looping the noises made by a toy bird, had nothing to do with Smith and was something that McConnell had recorded by himself." Did the producer describe the instrumental as "strange" or is that the opinion of the Wikipedia author? If it's a quotation, it needs to be marked so; if it's a Wikipedian's opinion, it should be removed.
12. "Smith most likely did not intend for this song to be on the album." Is this Wikipedia's judgement? Or is there a source for this?

Fg2 15:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• As User:Tony1 said above, an hour's work could clear up the objections I raised. Fg2 22:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: I've been working on working in some of the suggested edits. Phasing out the "Trivia" section, making the intro a little more meaty, etc. Shamrox 01:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment Feel free to strike out any of my objections as you address the issues. That can make it easier to gauge the progress toward featured status. Fg2 13:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment Alright then, here's a few:

1. "'The evidence surrounding his death is still inconclusive. [2]': the reference is two and a half years old. Can this be brought up to date?" Literally no information has been released about the case since early 2004, which was the autopsy report (linked as a refrence for the article). Some fans have actually tried contacting the LAPD to get more information, but they're not telling anyone anything. So, nope, can't really be brought up to date.

If there's a published article saying that fans sought information but the LAPD released none, that would be the update I'm looking for. But if there's nothing, there's nothing. Fg2 13:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

As far I know, there's no article with anything like that. I think I read about the fans going to the LAPD from friends or on messageboards, which is obviously not super-credible. Shamrox 22:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

In that case, maybe an "as of 2006" notice is the best that can be done. Fg2 22:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

1. "'He was told that anything he requested would be fine, but, a chair would not be granted.': What does this tell us about Elliott Smith?" In a way, it speaks volumes about the guy. He was so nonchalant about being on the Oscars that he didn't even care to stand up to sing to the crowd. However, I removed the line because I felt it made the paragraph drag on.
2. "'Smith never voiced disappointment about his loss - if anything, he seemed relieved.' Seemed to whom? Can we get a reference for this, or is it just a Wikipedian's assessment of the mood of the subject?" Not speculation. Found a refrence, see article.
3. The "Hey Jude" ordeal - I removed it for the time being (to figure out where it would most aptly fit in the article), but Wes Anderson talked to Entertainment Weekly in December 2004: "For the opening sequence, Anderson wanted the Beatles' 'Hey Jude.' 'The timing was bad,' he says. 'George Harrison was dying and we just couldn't get the stuff cleared.' He then tapped Elliott Smith to record a cover of 'Jude,' but the troubled singer backed out. 'He was in a bad state and just wasn't able to,' says Anderson."
4. "'and proceeded to jump off a cliff.': does this mean something more than 'and jumped off a cliff'?" Don't know what you mean...the guy got really drunk and depressed, then threw himself off a cliff.

If it means "and jumped off a cliff" then let's say "and jumped off a cliff." It's simple and direct. That's all I meant by it. Fg2 13:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

1. "'Nugent's book says that during this time, Smith hardly ever ate, subsisting primarily on ice cream (bizarrely, it was the only thing that he kept in his freezer).': did Nugent's book use the word 'bizarrely' or is it the Wikipedia author's judgement? If it's a quote, it should be marked accordingly; if it's the Wikipedia author's description, it should be removed." Noted and amended.
2. "'The producer also noted that the track 'Ostriches & Chirping', a strange and short instrumental made from sampling and looping the noises made by a toy bird, had nothing to do with Smith and was something that McConnell had recorded by himself.' Did the producer describe the instrumental as 'strange' or is that the opinion of the Wikipedia author? If it's a quotation, it needs to be marked so; if it's a Wikipedian's opinion, it should be removed." Amended.
3. "'Smith most likely did not intend for this song to be on the album.' Is this Wikipedia's judgement? Or is there a source for this?" Cited refrence.

Shamrox 18:49, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for doing these. They strengthen the article. Fg2 13:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

• It could be improved by removing the links to solitary years (2004 and 2006). Hope that helps. bobblewik 23:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

• Weak support: I like this article, we've done a lot of work on it recently and it's really become something great. However well referenced it may be, some of the prose could be better. There's also some kinda borderline case moments such as "many a fan cried sell-out" <- if we can't verify this somehow it has to go.

• On a less serious note, I think the Shutt biography footnotes could be condensed into one reference (like the Nugent reference) and then cited in brackets throughout, eg. "(Shutt, p.8)" - Phorque (talk • contribs) 12:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)