Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Demand Note

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[edit] Demand Note

self-nomination
Demand Notes were the second type of paper money issued by the U.S. from 1861-1862 during the American Civil War. They were, however, the first widespread issue of U.S. paper money and a precursor to modern U.S. paper money. This article has the most information in one place that I currently know of (in my 8 years as a currency collector). --Kurt 05:33, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

• Comment- Red links...are not good for FA's. Osbus 01:30, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Only two red links is okay, in my opinion. Red links are generally only frowned upon when there are too many of them. AndyZ _t 02:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment - The red links are the result of Wikipedia convention more than an explanation that needs to accompany the article. Anyways, I will be creating these articles with a decent yet minimal amount of information sometime this weekend. --Kurt 12:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - A well-written article, but for the table at the end, which sticks out like a sore thumb as unencyclopaedic. I know that "Common" is a relative term, but it doesn't tell me that much. How common is common? Do most currency collectors have one? Unless there are hard and fast numbers, I don't think a table is really merited. I have a few other quibbles with informal language. Lastly, when did these notes fade out of usage? The history section ends with them having a fair bit of purchasing power; what happened next? The Disco King 04:38, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - I can see what you meant by the table being a bit confusing. I have found a new source of information pertaining to the number of remaining notes and have also made the table hopefully less confusing. Are there any certain parts of the article that you think I should reword? And lastly, I added what happend to Demand Notes in the end. Through many drafts of the article, some how I forgot to include this information. --Kurt 12:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Change to Support - Yeah, after those changes, this is looking pretty good. Nice job. The Disco King 07:03, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
      • Thank you. --Kurt 07:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
• Questionable Image Useage. Image:Demand Notes.jpg looks to me more like some promotional image for a dealer in banknotes rather than a legitimate, plus it doesn't accurately source where in American banknote literature it's used in, or whether it was distributed in a form like a Souviner card. Not exactly an image I would consider for the top of the article.--293.xx.xxx.xx 10:19, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: <sarcasm>I'm a dealer trying to sneak in a promotion. Right?????</sarcasm> <---- I don't know where that presumption came from. Anyways, the image was created by me (hence the creative commons attribution license) for aesthetic reasons; there was an imbalance of pictures at the bottom of the page prior to its creation. The image personifies the struggle of the time (Civil War) and the values and themes of the time that were present on Demand Notes. --Kurt 12:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

In that case, please try to find a better image to accurately portray Demand Notes, and I will give my Support to it. To me, when I first look at that page, I expect to see in that first image (an) image(s) of Demand Notes, not some collage of images from Demand Notes. It kinda defeats the purpose of writing an article about Demand Notes, yet have an image that is completely unrelated to the topic at hand.--293.xx.xxx.xx 05:04, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I have pictures of all 3 Demand Notes in the article. What else do you want? --Kurt 05:47, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, i'll help you out. I pulled up three US Currency articles for you: this article on the United States Note, Federal Reserve Note, and the Silver Certificate. Notice the first image of these articles are an example of the note, OR an image of several examples of said notes, which helps illustrate the article introduction. Now, take your image on Demand Note. It looks out of place. If I was a newbie, and I clicked on that link for the first time, I could either get the wrong impression (Demand Notes looked like that?); find myself clicking back, thinking I typed in something wrong; or something else. You need to replace that image with either a great photo of one of the demand notes, or a retrospective of the notes, one for each denomination for example.--293.xx.xxx.xx 07:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, to make things simple, how about this image? If this still doesn't suffice for you then read below....

Well, first of all the Demand Note article IS NOT the same as these articles. Yes, they are all about U.S. currency, but there are some key differences. Based on major design changes throughout denominations (and this is excluding minor design changes), there are a total of 43 possible images for United States Notes, 39 possible images for Silver Certificates, 32 possible images for Federal Reserve Notes, and only 3 possible images for Demand Notes. There are a myriad of images for these other articles but not Demand Notes. The Demand Notes article discusses each denomination design in depth and thus needs the images of each denomination next to the description to make any sense. Further, I am rewriting the Federal Reserve Note article and am planning on making a montage of the 5 major design milestones as the image in the lead section; that makes 27 images that I can choose from to put into the body of the article. I don't seem to have this connivance with the Demand Notes article.

As for the image itself, I have updated the caption below it for clarification to "Montage of allegorical figures and portraits used on $5, $10, and $20 Demand Notes; the background is of an 1861-1863 34 star U.S. Flag". And if you think about it, lead sections summarize the article and should be able to stand by themselves. And what does the image do - summarize the portraits and allegories used on Demand Notes and gives the time period in which they were used and by whom (The North) they were used. --Kurt 00:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll address this point that I didn't notice earlier:

Based on major design changes throughout denominations (and this is excluding minor design changes), there are a total of 43 possible images for United States Notes, 39 possible images for Silver Certificates, 32 possible images for Federal Reserve Notes, and only 3 possible images for Demand Notes.

It should be generally assumed that not all Wikipedia users have a grasp of most of the articles in Wikipedia for various reasons. Ergo, using an image that helps them understand what the article is about helps to get them to get "aquanted" with the subject. You propose changing the Federal Reserve Note image to something else. The image right now actually is a good representation that "normal" people are familar with. Notes that they have used countless times in the past and today. --293.xx.xxx.xx 23:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I know that your a newer member to Wikipedia and might not be familiar with all of the policies here, but you need to stop with the personal attacks! --Kurt 04:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The article is about DEMAND NOTES. What is the first image that anyone that clicks onto that article sees? A collage of images compiled from the demand notes, not (an) example(s) of a demand note. See the problem here? I don't know what else to tell you, short of completely insulting you, but that image right now looks out of place and it needs to go and be replaced by something that sticks to the topic at hand.

The image as-is (or the compromise image) does not completely fit in with explaining what a demand note is in that introduction section, and rather seems as an out-of-place image that has no place belonging in there. It needs to be replaced with something else that can illustrate what a demand note is within that first part of the article.--293.xx.xxx.xx 06:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh look, things worked out after all ;) --Kurt 08:55, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Still looks out of place. I would rather see an image of a Demand Note in the lead image than what is in it's place right now. Still looks like a collage rather than a helpful image to introduce the article. --293.xx.xxx.xx 22:58, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this is purely your opinion now and I won't say anything else about it. --Kurt 04:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

• Comment a picture of a demand note should be on the lead section, as the article is about them and should help describe the subject at a glance. The collage should be farther down the page, IMO. Titoxd^{(?!? - help us)} 05:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

My only concern that I brought up previously is the repetitive nature this would create. Since each of the 3 denominations is described in depth, an image is needed next to each description. If a picture of a Demand Note were to be placed at the top of the article, then an image would be used twice in the article. --Kurt 17:36, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

• Support and Comment First off, I support this article as is, very nice kurt. I personnally like the collage thing, and think it could do a world of good as a unique identifier for wikipedia. But, yes, it could be alittle confusing and misleading. How about another stab at a collage, say with just the notes themselves, no cut-out inserts(is that an oxymoron?). Maybe stacked offset ontop each other, or look like a mismatched sheet of notes? Anyways, just tryin to find common ground. Joe I 21:03, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: Alright, I've updated the image in the article once again with this Demand Note$.jpg. Here is my justification of this image finally working:

1. The image shows the front and back of the $10 Demand Note, clearing up any confusion (discussed above) of exactly what a Demand Note is
2. The portrait of Hamilton, "Statue of Freedom", and allegorical representation of Liberty are located directly below their corresponding denominations thus making them relevant for the image; further, their presence is explained in the image caption
3. Showing the front and back of every (a.k.a. all 3) Demand Note in the image in the lead section would be too repetitive since there are image of all 3 later on in the article with a description next to each image
4. This image is in lieu of not having any image in the lead section

--Kurt 03:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)