Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Aleksandr Vasilevsky

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[edit] Aleksandr Vasilevsky

An article about one of the greatest Soviet WWII commanders and the Chief of General Staff during the Great Patriotic War, who until not too long ago was laying in embarassing stubiness. After an extensive overhaul and a peer review by the MILHIST project, I think it is ready to undergo the FAC procedure. Your comments are welcome. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 16:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Support as the main overhauler (is this good English? heh...) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 16:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, all the issues raised during the peer review have been resolved. Kirill Lokshin 16:55, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Question: Can you please discuss your sources? Most of the inlne citations appear to be to Vasilevsky's own book: how have you achieved balanced and verified statements? The peer review didn't seem to attract many editors. Sandy 17:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Answer. This is actually an interesting question, and the solution did not came naturally. As for the period roughly before 1937, all we have are his memoirs, since Vasilevsky was still pretty much an unknown regimental commander. I started a thread on Village pump (which can be found here) and I understood that for non-controversial statements, it is pretty OK to use the person's memoires. Besides, the

two Russian bio dictionaries I used, namely Stalin's empire by K.A. Zalessky and Actors of our History by A.P Shikman, all published after 1991, confirm those statements. The Soviet Military Encyclopedia does too. So, overall, the plan was to use the dictionaries to source the most critical statements and the memoirs for everything else - namely for details, relationship with his parents and so on. These three sources are used 20 times in the article, but the fact they're located on a single line creates the impression they're less used than they really are.

  • As for WWII, which is actually the most controversial part, this is mainly sourced with other books. If you look, starting from ref number 30, which corresponds to the start of WWII, there are much less references to his own memoirs. Only those that pertain to details were kept- the fact his family was brought to Moscow, his wound in Sevastopol and so on. All military information is sourced mainly through Shtemenko's book, and through Zhukov's memoirs as well. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 17:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the thorough answer. I'll spend more time examining the article now that I understand the references. I take it the images are all fine because of the Russian copyright issue? Sandy 17:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
You're welcome. :) As for images, yes, they're fine because they're Soviet (not Russian, which are copyrighted). Incidentally, I would like to state that I uploaded only one of them, the other were already either here or on commons. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 17:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support fully. --Irpen 20:19, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Support, Rlevse 21:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - seems to be a good, well-referenced article on an important person abakharev 21:26, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - Vald 15:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Object for now. I'm encountering a lot of prose problems, throughout. I'm confident these can be cleaned up if you have another set of eyes look at the article and do a thorough copyedit. Here are some examples from only the opening of the article -- these indicate the need to run through the entire article:
    • After the war, he became the USSR Defense Minister, a position he held until Stalin's death 1953.
    • His father, Mikhail Aleksandrovich Vasilevsky was a poor priest of the nearby St. Nicholas Church.
    • Vasilevsky reportedly broke all contact with his parents since 1926, as did three of his brothers, because of his VKP(b) membership and his military duties in the Red Army.
    • His father spent a major part of his time working to earn money, with children working in the field.
  • I hope you can get someone unfamiliar with the text to run through the entire article. Please ping me after a copy edit, and I will re-evaluate. Sandy 01:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I just completed an extensive copyedit of the article, and believe I found and corrected most of the prose and grammar issues. Cla68 17:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
The changes seem to be moving in the wrong direction; these prose problems are worse than before:
  • At the beginning of the October Revolution and the Civil War he was conscripted into the Red Army, with which he took part in the Polish-Soviet War.
  • He was then appointed commander-in-chief of Soviet forces in the Far East, executing Operation August Storm and subsequently accepted Japan's surrender.
Perhaps you can find another person to run through it. Sandy 17:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Those two sentences have now been corrected. Cla68 17:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Those were only examples from the top of the article, indicating the need to review the entire text. Sandy 18:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
As you suggested, it looks like others have joined in the effort (below) to accomplish what is needed. Cla68 04:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm back for another look: I inserted a few comments inline, so please check.
  • After completing his studies in the seminary and spending a few years working as a teacher, Vasilevsky intended to become an agronomist or a surveyor, but the outbreak of the First World War changed his plans. Did the outbreak change his plans, or did he change his plans?
  • I could not suppose that my country would change, and I would. [reference to the 1917 Russian Revolution and Vasilevsky's emerging communist beliefs.]"[6] On my browser, I'm seeing a change in font size here? Is the insert part of the quote or an ed insert? This is not clear.
  • "There was a time when I led soldiers to battle, thinking I was doing my duty of a Russian patriot. As a Russian patriot?
  • Now I understood that we have been cheated, that people needed peace. . . . Now I understand? Was this a present tense quote? Now implies present tense.
  • which had been relocated to Ukraine, had elected him as their commander (as, at the beginning of the Russian Revolution, commanders were elected by their own men). Is that "as" necessary inside parentheses?
  • Zhukov would later characterize Vasilevsky as "a man who knew his job as he spent a long time commanding a regiment and who earned a great respect from everybody."[23] Earned "a" great respect?
I stopped there: more copyediting is still required. Sandy 11:49, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I answered your concerns added inline and fixed these mistakes. Frankly, those represent half of the text, so if you could go through the other half as well, it would be nice... :) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 21:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Object—2a.

    • "etc" adds nothing to the first sentence.
    • "and" is required before "former Chief of Staff".
    • "conscripted in"? No, "into".
    • "he quickly rose in ranks"? No, "through the ranks".
    • "he showed great skills regarding organization and training"—Better grammar would be: "he showed great skill at organizing and training". Avoid repeated "skills" in the subsequent sentence.
    • Comma after "and", not "unnoticed".
      • Comment A thourough copy-edit was performed by several users, please tell what you think of the current version :) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 23:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

That's the first five sentences. The density of problems indicates that the whole article needs a thorough copy-edit by someone who's unfamiliar with the text. Tony 02:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Oppose. I read the whole thing, and the English is poor. I fixed a few things, but this needs a very thorough copy-edit by someone who knows the subject well. Everyking 11:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I just completed an extensive copyedit of the article, and believe I found and corrected most of the prose and grammar issues. Cla68 17:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. I remember reading it a long time ago and thinking it really needed lots of improvement. But now I believe it has become a great article worthy of FA status. Shanes 19:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Having never read through it before, I just did an extensive copyedit on the article, and ran through it two-to-three additional times to make sure I caught everything. I think it deserves FA status now. If one or two others would like to run through it just to make sure, all the better. But I think it's there.--ScreaminEagle 22:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
    • I went down to the middle of the article, to read a paragraph. I shouldn't have to click on a word to get the basic gist of what it refers to: In April 1919, Vasilevsky was again conscripted in the Red Army and sent to command a company fighting against "armed bands" and helping with prodrazvyorstka. In a print encyclopedia, I can't click on prodrazvyorstka. Sandy 22:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Good point. :) I explained the words that are potentially unclear for a non-Russian reader, such as praporshchik, prodrazvyorstka and STAVKA. Please say if you have further comments. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 22:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
        • I think I should stop being a pest, but this article just does not have brilliant, compelling prose (yet). Again, picking out a section at random, I find:
          • Among Vasilevsky's strong critics was Rokossovsky, who criticized Vasilevsky's decisions during the Stalingrad counteroffensive, especially his refusal to commit the 2nd Army to the annihilation of Stalingrad pocket, and for general interference with his work.[64] Is "Stalingrad pocket" a term I should know?
          • According to him, Vasilevsky was the only one responsible for the successful Soviet counteroffensive at Stalingrad and Zhukov played no role whatsoever in it. *Only one* responsible? The rest of the soldiers did nothing? Perhaps this is a translation problem, but there must be a better way to phrase it.
        • The article needs another thorough once over, by someone who doesn't know the material. Sandy 23:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
          • I fixed these two objections and explained some operation names that might be potentially unknown in the context (Operation Bagration for instance). Honestly, I think it's there. There are still some imperfections... -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 23:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support—good article: very thorough and well-referenced. I've given the copy a minor polishing. Please check that all full day-monh-year dates are wikified, but solitary dates and years are not. —Michael Z. 2006-07-18 07:00 Z
  • Support --Ghirla -трёп- 07:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support An excellent informative article. TSO1D 15:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Well written and referenced article. —dima/// 18:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support --mno 01:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Further comment—I've been asked to re-examine the text. It is noticeably better than it was, particularly at the top. But In choosing one subsection (Childhood and early years), I should not be able to find problems such as these, if the prose is uniformly "compelling, even brilliant" as required by 2a:
    • "Vasilevsky was the fourth of eight children in the family."
    • "was a priest of the nearby St. Nicholas Church"—"To", not "at", is idiomatic.
    • "His mother, Nadezhda Ivanovna Sokolova, was the daughter of a priest in the village of Ugletz, also in the Kineshma uezd." The last clause has apparently been tacked onto the sentence with no care. Why does "uezd" start with lower-case "u"?
    • "a majority of his time working to earn money"—No, time is not countable, so "most of" is required.
    • "nation-wide"—Isn't this a single word?

And there's more:

    • In the quote (which, IMV, shouldn't be in italic, because it's already highlighted by "quote marks", and because italic face is harder to read), I can't make sense of: "I could not suppose that everything would change: the country would change, and I would." Presumably, this is translated from the Russian. Can you check it, and if accurate, perhaps provide a [square-bracket paraphrasing that makes sense]?

I'm afraid that I can't yet strike out my objection; it would be good to see this nomination succeed, so another run-through, by a different person, is essential. You see what I mean, don't you? Tony 09:15, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I fixed all of your remarks. However, can you help me and point out some more problems if there are any, please? :) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 10:16, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 12:23, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. KNewman 19:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Minor object on three points.
    • 1) Doesn't seem comprehensive: the year (or more?) he spend in a major war (Polish-Soviet War) is summed up in one sentences: In December 1919, Vasilevsky was sent to the Western front as a deputy regimental commander, participating in the Polish-Soviet War. Considering that PSW is a FA, I think this should be expanded to at least a paragraph, telling the readers in which battles he particpated and units he served/commanded. I assume that the following sentence refers to the events post-Treaty of Riga: Until August 1921, Vasilevsky fought against various anti-Soviet paramilitary groups in Belarus and in the Smolensk Oblast. Still, I wonder what those groups were? <-- Fixed -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 22:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
    • 2) The language needs NPOVing.
      • Good job, although it would be nice if we can link to some of the battles mentioned in the PSW campaignbox (Russian counteroffensive seems like what is covered by the Kiev Offensive article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
      • "Overwhelmed with patriotic feelings..." (unreferenced and sounds hagiographical); <-- I put this as a quote (and it is a quote) and referenced it." -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
      • "armed bands" (unreferenced POVed term, why not 'freedom fighters' or tsar loyalists or whatever?), <-- I replaced it with paramilitary groups. It is neutral IMHO. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
        • True, but it would be nice to have a little more detail on those bands/groups/whatever. Where they white loyalits? Hungry peasants? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
          • Both. He speaks both about white forces and "kulak bands" (in a NPOV way, "peasant uprisings" as I put it). I also added the ref to it. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
      • "Stalin's Great Purge had eliminated a significant number of senior military commanders" (it should state clearly they were executed, this phrasing suggest they might have been forced to resigned), <-- all were not executed, some were sent to camps (e.g. Rokossovsky) -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
      • "To his amazement, Vasilevsky was appointed to the General Staff in October 1937" ('to his amazement' doesn't sound too encyclopedic, but this is minor issue), <-- I'm open to suggestions on this one, but I think it is OK as it is.. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:11, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
      • "Stalin, surprised, suggested that he reestablish his family ties at once, and help his parents with whatever needs they might have" (sounds like straight from Stalin propaganda piece - Stalin, the caring father...). <-- That's what is written in his memoirs, and I added another reference on a book published in 2005. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
        • Well, if this is a direct citation, I guess it's better. The POV of the source is rather clearly visible, though, I am not sure if this should stay in text. What purpose does this para has other then show how 'nice' was Stalin?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
          • Well, this allowed Vasilevsky to bring this family to Moscow, where they remained during the war. As he says, it was quite a recomfort for him. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
      • "When Soviet forces entered the Baltic states," - shouldn't it be 'reoccupied'? <-- Object: this is POV. "Entered" is neutral, "occupy" is not. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
      • "After the war, Lasch claimed that Vasilevsky did not respect the guarantees made during the city's capitulation". What guarantees? <-- Explained -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
        • Good start, but was Lasch the only affected? What happened to other soldiers and civilians?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
          • I added the reference to evacuation of East prussia and mentioned German soldiers and officers remained in camps, too. Since it is a biography, I can't fit the whole WP there. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 20:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
    • 3) Last but not least, the references need formatting. Footnotes should be merged with references, cite.php style would be nice, ISBN numbers as well, information on what language are the references (currently they all suggest they are English books, even if printed in Moscow...). There is not a single reference verifiable with Google Print or even English academic journal, instead the main reference is autobiograhy by Vasilevsky himself, written and printed in communist SU. The second most often used reference is little better - Shtemenko book was printed in '89, and is only a second edition anyway. I am not saying those references are completly unreliable, but most important and controversial facts should be verified with modern English academic publications.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC) <-- I sourced some critical statements with English books available on Google books. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 22:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Reply. For the first point, I'll see what I can do. However, bear in mind that for balance sake, one cannot spent too much space on what is a minor episode in Vasilevsky.
For the second, I will fix some of those but I strongly object some of those, such as "reoccupation" - it is not NPOV. It seems someone once suggested that military vocabulary should be used in this cases.
As for the "sounds like straight from Stalin propaganda piece" - it is written as it is in Vasilevsky's memoirs. I will add a quote if necessary, but it's written in this way (and the memoirs were published in 1973, long after Stalin's death.)
For the third, this is the format used by most articles I have seen, for instance Shielded metal arc welding, so I don't see what is wrong with it.
As for references, I suggest we stop paranoia. Incidentally, two of the three dictionaries that source the most critical details were published after 1991. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 17:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
    • As most of my concenrs have been adressed, I am downgrading my objection to minor. I still think that references need work: we would benefit from adding more Google Print references, original titles and language notes to the current ones, perhaps some external links, too. Note that some of the books have been translated and are available on Google Print, for example, Memoirs of Nikita Khrushchev.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:55, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Well-written, looks good! —Khoikhoi 18:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
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