Talk:Falun Gong/Archive10a

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Archived discussion:

Contents

[edit] Unprotected

As requested at WP:RfPP, I've now unprotected this article as it seems to have been long enough and the discussions here seem to have been productive. I'll keep the article watchlisted and jump in if edit warring begins again. Feel free to contact me or respond here if you agree or do not agree with unprotection, or if you feel that it may be necessary to protect again. AmiDaniel (talk) 03:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I am introducing links to the sub-pages created. Dilip rajeev 04:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Alright everyone, calm down. Not five hours, and you're back edit-warring again. I'm not going to protect again just yet, but please everyone refrain from reverting and discuss your issues as if the article were protected--or else I will have to protect it again. Talk about changes, and then implement--changing, reverting, and arguing with edit summaries is quite counter-productive. AmiDaniel (talk) 08:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Ami: Right after you unfroze the article Dilip, who requested you to do so, immediately reverted to a drastically different version which was not approved by the editors. His version actually deleted certain existing sections on the main page (eg: Ethics) and added new ones (eg: Research into Health Benefits and Theoretical & Epesitomological Studies. This is a dishonest action on Dilip's part and cannot stand. --Tomananda 08:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC) The ethics section is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoretical_and_Epistemological_studies_on_Falun_Gong#Ethics


Agreed. Removing sections has not been agreed on. We haven't even agreed on the second paragraph yet. CovenantD 08:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


As a note on that, User:Dilip rajeev is currently at four reverts (thus already in violation of 3RR). He has been warned, and upon reverting again, he will be blocked. AmiDaniel (talk) 08:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
And as another note, while I'm not endorsing either version or any editors' actions here, I do find it quite misleading and dishonest that User:Dilip rajeev marked this edit as minor, as it clearly was not. I'm going to assume good faith and say that this was a mistake on his behalf, but I do find it rather bothersome. AmiDaniel (talk) 08:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry but I myself noticed the m only after I saved it.. It was not intentional.. Also I had mentioend in the edit history what I had done, indicating the edit was not a minor one.. I described the edit as:Added sup-page links and replaced content with intro paras.( except "criticism" section)Dilip rajeev 16:30, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Yet another note from me: User:Tomananda has just reverted for the fourth time and is now also in violation of WP:3RR. They've both been adequately warned, and if either reverts again, s/he will be blocked. AmiDaniel (talk) 08:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Second paragraph

Okay, let's start with the one that was in place when the page was frozen.

Falun Gong has been the focus of international controversy since the government of the People's Republic of China began a nationwide suppression of Falun Gong on July 20, 1999 for its illegal activities. The Falun Gong came to the attention of the Chinese government when 10,000 practitioners protested peaceful at Zhongnanhai the compound of Chinese top leaders on April 25, 1999.
Here's a suggested modified version which tries to strike a balance between the two POV's, but also adds more detail:
Falun Gong has been the focus of international attention since April 25,1999, when 10,000 practitioners assembled in a peaceful protest outside Zhongnanhai, China’s leadership compound. Prior to that, the Falun Gong had staged protests against its media critics all over China. On July 20, 1999 the government banned the Falun Gong for its violation of Chinese laws. However, the Falung Gong denies any wrongdoing, claiming that the Chinese government itself has violated international laws, while also alleging mistreatment and torture of its followers. --Tomananda 08:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I dont udnerstand why anybody would want go into such "details" in an article of Falun Gong. The reason why you want to put it like that is only too conspicuous. I dont think going in circles discussing this would work. Just menstion that China began a Nation-wide supression of Falun Gong on.. and that this has been regarded a major human-rights violation.. Over a week, and we are again back on square 1. To procced we must clearly have the article split. The intro paras can be discussed and modified. That is clean and starightforward. Dilip rajeev 10:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions for edits

My first suggestion is to not make any changes until we agree on them. Dilip, that means you should put the second paragraph back for now. CovenantD 08:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I second that. And let's go in the order of the existing sections. Dilip wants to add some new main page sections and delete (or move) some others and those changes can be discussed as we go along as well. I am not saying I reject everything Dilip wants to do, but do insist we fully know what these changes are and agree to them. --Tomananda 08:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Tomanda, Covenant was talking about the intro paragraph. You seem to want to cover up things in a mess and make the discussion go around in circles. Not intented to be an offense but just pointing out what I feel. To procced, we must clearly have the article split. The intro paras can be discussed and modified. That is clean and straightforward and the dits will move much faster. If anything has been left our from the previous version(s) it can be re-introduced. Think about it please, it it takes two weeks to decide a two line pragraph and we are still arguing, we really wont be able to get things done unless things are put into appropriate sub-pages and scrutinized thereby creating a high-quality article. Dilip rajeev 10:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Dilip, you also use selective, circular arguments to promote your version of things, IMO, so let's not be too ready to point fingers. We all have a personal POV, but it is where it interferes with the article that it gets us into difficulties. It doesn't have to. We have to edit from a broader perspective, one beyond the ends of our own noses. There is room for all pertinent information. People need to accept that their definition of what is pertinent isn't always the same as others' and information that others feel important will be included in the article. In almost any Wikipedia article one has an interest in, information one may not like personally will be eventually included somehow. The only question is, does one want to be relaxed about editorial diversity or controlling? Nobody owns these articles. --Fire Star 火星 12:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Dilip: Your mandacity truly amazes me. You have consistenly done major revert edits without discussion or honest edit summaries. Right now you are repeating the same dishonest justification for your deletions..plus additions of new sections...as you have previsously. Rather than honestly saying: Look, I think we need some new sections on the main page (eg: your new self-promoting section called Research into health benefits)...you continue to pretend that this is just about splitting the article. Under that banner, you have slipped in new sections, a new page, and made many significant changes to existing edits, both in terms of content and placement. As Firestar commented awhile ago in an edit summary, I find it increasingly difficult to believe what you say about anything. --Tomananda 21:41, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Other than Tomananda's initial attempt at an alternate version, above, there hasn't been any productive discussion on the second paragraph. Look at the two versions at the top of this section and make suggestions for changes here. CovenantD 18:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Folks. Ok. Can we discuss whether to use the subpages or not? I saw Dilip's last version using the splitted pages are quite neat. Also, the subsections of the critism were kept on the main page. I wonder why it is still reverted. Are we simply not welcoming splitting pages? Fnhddzs 13:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Beliefs and teachings and Cultivation of mind and body

Folks: I have a question. I think the current structure are not logically clear. For example, I think these two sections are not parallel.

3 Beliefs and teachings

4 Cultivation of mind and body

[edit] Progress

I think we actually might be making some progress. It's a kind of "three steps forward, two steps back" kind of progress, but progress nonetheless. I like the shorter version with summaries and links to daughter articles. CovenantD 17:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1st paragraph of intro

I see that Dilip has added another sentence to the first paragraph. Is there anything in this that needs to be discussed? Unless there's a dispute about the numbers, it seems like a non-issue to me. CovenantD 17:32, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The system has been growing in popularity world-over with the teachings translated to over 40 languages and practitioners present in over 80 countries.

Unless somebody objects to this sentence being added in the next 24 hours, I'm going to add it and resist any attempts to remove it without discussion. CovenantD 18:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Second paragraph of Origins section

It's just been pointed out that this paragraph is in contention. Let's discuss.

At the beginning, Li introduced himself to the public as a master with the utmost supernatural powers and wisdom. In “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” which appeared as an appendix in the early version of the group’s bible Zhuan Falun, Li claimed to have been trained by numerous Masters in Buddhism and Taoism since the age of four and acquired supernatural powers at age of eight. He could levitate off the ground and become invisible simply by thinking "Nobody can see me.” Two other supernatural powers were his ability to control people’s movements by thoughts and to move himself anywhere he wanted by thought alone. Li also presented himself as the very embodiment of Truthfulness, Compassion and Tolerance and claimed to have discovered the truth of the universe…the origin of humankind and foresaw the development and future of the humankind.

Dilip, you're the one who removed it, so why don't you explain why. Tomananda, you pointed out it had been removed so maybe you could explain why you think it's relevant to the section summary (as opposed to the daughter article on History). Samuel, you just jumped in so you need to explain the same. Also see the relevant portions of this talk page on the intro. CovenantD 18:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Covenant, at this point I am more concerned about dealing with Dilip's failure to play by the rules. The paragraph that he deleted was written by another editor, Samuel, so it is up to Samuel to provide the argument for relevance. --Tomananda 21:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this section should be there, iv'e searched for "A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi" and found nothing, I have not read the book and I dont what it says there. 213.114.166.136 11:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Order of topics in Criticism and Controveries section

Either this article or the subarticle needs to be reordered so that they are similar in form. I don't care which one. Tomananda, you seem to have great concern for that section, do you have an opinion? Anybody else? CovenantD 18:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethics section

I've returned the Ethics section to the article for now - there hasn't been agreement on removing it. It's now open for discussion. CovenantD 17:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Just wanted to point out that a copy of the ethics section exists here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoretical_and_Epistemological_studies_on_Falun_Gong#Ethics.. Dilip rajeev 17:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out. I missed it. I still think that some editors might want a mention on the main page, so perrhaps we should look at how to summarize what we have here now. CovenantD 17:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Now that Tomananda has made me look at the various Ethics sections with this, I see some problems. What's there is almost the same as what's in the Theorhetical article. That is unacceptable. There's also the fact that Ethics can be viewed from a critical viewpoint, so that needs to be worked in. I'd suggest a new subsection under Criticism and moving the current Ethics to a subcategory of Theorhetical and summarize it. CovenantD 22:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, most of the current Ethics section is critical, so that's why we retitled it to Allegations of elitism and intolerance in Falun Gong ethics and placed it in the Criticism page. I agree something needs to be written, but that would be a more pro-FG rendering of its system of ethics. --Tomananda 22:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
okay, now I'm confused again. Are you saying that the section that it's this article, the section called Ethics, is the same thing that's on the Criticism page? What's here now is pretty long. CovenantD 22:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, it is confusing. The original article appeared in the main section. Then another editor (I think it was Ed Poor) felt it belonged in the Criticism page. I then did a minor re-write to make it more suitable for Criticism. The versions are similar, but not the same. Check out the criticism version here: Criticism and controversies about Falun Gong#Allegations of elitism and intolerance in Falun Gong ethics Please note that when I revised the article in the Criticsm page, an editor inserted the lead paragraph from the original version. But since a criticism page should start with what the criticism is, I've just deleted that first paragraph. What would work well, then, would be for the pro-FG editors to write a new main page section for Ethics and have that cross-linked to the Criticism page. Would make for an interesting read I think. --Tomananda 00:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

I've reordered them into Falun Gong/Critical/Other sites per the suggestion of... somebody... when the page was locked. I hope that's non-controversial. CovenantD 17:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Status of edits and playing by the rules

Several things to report and discuss:

  • Yesterday Ami Daniel warned both Dilip and I that if we did any more reverts he would block us. As the history will show, I stopped doing any more edits, while a few hours later Dilip deleted an entire paragraph in the origins section (see above discussion). This was clearly in violation of Ami's directive and I have requested that Dilip now be blocked for a 24 hour period. Enough is enough.
  • Dilip's stated reason for deleting the paragraph...which quotes from Li Hongzhi's original biography as printed in earlier editions of Zhuan Falun...was that it was "unsourced."
  • Covenant, you have asked that we not delete material for reasons of sources but instead add a citation needed. In doing his deletion, Dilip not only violated the 3RR limit warning, but also your earlier request to not delete material because of source issues. What's more, the paragraph in question was sourced within the text.
  • There is a great deal of material in other pages which is unsourced, unverified or needs to be re-written. I did an extensive post about these issues days ago, but there has been no response. We cannot have a double standard on the issues of sources.
  • Among the many changes that Dilip has slipped into his edits, without discussion, is the creation of a new page called "History and timeline." We did not discuss this new page and I question it's need at this point.
  • A rewrite of the Ethics section was placed in the Criticism page some time ago titled "Allegations of elitisim and intolerance in Falun Gong ethics." Now I see that Dilip or perhaps another practitioner has added a link on the home page under Ethics to "Theoretical and epistomological studies.." which, by the way, is yet another new section. This particular change is not acceptable, as the content for the re-written ethics section clearly belongs on the Criticism page. If there's a desire to write up something new for Ethics and place it on another page, that's fine. But the existing section, which focuses on aspects of FG ethics which are elitist or intolerant should not be moved. --Tomananda 21:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
  • AmiDaniel is the admin overseeing this. If you don't get a response from hir, ask Fire Star, Mirobrovsky or another admin to request a neutral party to look it over.
  • The paragraph has been returned and is now open for discussion.
  • ...
  • Material in other pages should be addressed on their respective talk page. All sources must meet Wikipedia standards.
  • Having a history page is not a bad idea for now. It does fit the style of summaries and sub-articles that we discussed, so I'm inclined to assume good faith on its creation. Process questions aside, it allows for a space to create that portion of the story that is Falun Gong. If we decide it's more appropriate for this main article then we can fold it back in. Let's discuss it over there.
  • Much of that also applies here - the style of the main article, the assumption of good faith, space to work on that separate from the main article summary. I agree that ethics is something best dealt with from several perspectives. Um, and I'm the one who added the link to the Theorhetical article after Dilip pointed it out to me. I'm going to claim an assume good faith defense also. Now that you've made me look at the Ethics sections, see my comments here. I see some problems that need to be addressed. CovenantD 22:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Concerning the need for citations in the Persecution page, I notice that a few were added by Dilip, but not accepted by Covenant. In addition to dealing with those problem areas, I especially ask for a response to items # 1 and # 2 that appeared in my posting above Talk:Falun Gong#Text that needs to be deleted, verified or re-written Having just gone through a major challenge to the Deng and Fang academic paper, I am especially concerned about verifying sources about the alleged healh benefits of Falun Gong. Please see: Talk: Research into health benefits of Falun Gong--Tomananda 22:23, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Already on it. See my responses on the talk page and my edits to the article[1]. CovenantD 00:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


A paragraph starting "At the beginning...[citation needed] " was removed from the origins section as it seems to be completely unsourced further what relevance does the unsourced claim have? It sounds more like made up criticism... AND AGAIN THE NY TIMES FIGURE HAS BEEN DELETED BY SOMEONE. IF YOU KEEP DELETING SUCH WELL SOURCED THINGS...(I THINK IT HAS BEEN DELETED REPEATEDLY OVER A DOZEN TIMES BY THE SAME PERSON) I WONDER TO WHAT EXTENT THIS PERSON WOULD GO TO VANDALIZE THE ARTICLE. Dilip rajeev 06:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Dilip rajeevAnyone who reads the paragraph would know that the material comes from “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” appeared as an appendix in the early version of the Chinese Zhuan Falun. Why don’t you ask a Chinese practitioner for a copy of it? And again, one more time, you rewrote the article and deleted a section without consensus!

I understand there was something in a version by A publisher in China and that it was written by a journalist. But of what relevance is that? There are so many publishing houses around the world publishing Zhuan Falun and I guess even in mainland china there were more than one. Dilip rajeev 13:11, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NY Times figure

And again, one more time, the NY Times figure has been deleted, and a completely unsourced claim introduced.. Dilip rajeev 07:24, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Why does this keep getting deleted? It's cited and fits the context. Please explain the deletion. CovenantD 07:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The figure provided by NY Times contradicts the government’s figure. The original source should be cited whenever there is a conflict like this. If you promise not to rewrite or delete anything without a consensus, I will not delete it again. --Samuel Luo 07:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Samuel Lou: "The figure provided by NY Times contradicts the government’s figure. " Do you trust a killed government responsible for the deaths of 100 million chinese or the Ny Times? Who cares about the Chinese Government? Are you going to follow all the Chinese Communist propaganda too? Stop deleting it please. Omido 16:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Samuel, thank you for agreeing not to delete the material until we reach an agreement.
The obvious solution is to include all three sets of numbers. The New York Times is the embodiment of a reliable source. CovenantD 16:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Dilip rajeev, It was not written by a journalist but the Falun Dafa Research Society chaired by your master. The version of the Chinese Zhuan Falun I have which contains this biography was published by Falun Fofa publishing co in Hong Kong owned by your master. Why don’t you ask for a translation of it from a Chinese practitioner? Benjamin Penny wrote about it in his paper “The Life and Times of Li Hongzhi: Falun Gong and Religious Biography” [2]

Omido, I don’t trust the Chinese government, the Falun Gong and you. We have to report the claims of the Chinese government and the Falun Gong nothing more nothing less. --Samuel Luo 17:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

We discussed this issue in depth here. If you want to debate the issue please look at what has already been said. In my opinion, the discussion left off indicating that the NY Times source should be included. Mcconn 16:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Samuel, your issues of trust aside, what do you think of the current version of the paragraph that deals with the number of practitioners? I'm referring to the version that lists the NYT numbers first, then the Chinese gov't figure, then the ClearWisdom number? CovenantD 17:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where did the Pics Go?

Where did all of the pics for the Falun Gong page go? The Fading Light 13:18, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I suspect they were moved to the spin-off articles. CovenantD 16:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Also why is the Feng and Deng quotes on the main page? 213.114.166.136 16:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Good catch. Would somebody like to rewrite the Falun_Gong#Difference_between_Falun_Gong_and_Qi_Gong summary? CovenantD 16:35, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I replaced the existing intro in the main page with the existing lead paragraph from the Criticism page, which has already been discussed. --Tomananda 19:39, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes I can do it, ALOT of things on the critics section is unsourced too... Omido 16:37, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Omido, most of what you claim is "not sourced" already has the citations in the body of the text and those citations are also listed in detail in the reference section at the end of the article. Not every source is to an on-line article, some sources refer to material in print (such as books) or academic papers which might not be available on-line. When that happens, the detailed information for those sources is listed at the end of the article in the references section. There are a few remaining problem areas because of the removal of the Deng and Fang source which I will address in the Criticism page. --Tomananda 19:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

--Tomananda 19:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Please be sure to submit your version here first, so people can comment on it and we can reach consensus. We've agreed to review all major edits before they happen, so please respect that decision. CovenantD 16:55, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need Sources

These things i what I want to see sources for:

Li as a savior or supernatural entity

"critics point out that he assumes the role of a divinity by virtue of his claimed supernatural powers."


Although practitioners claim that Falun Gong is merely a “cultivation practice,” some commentators point to Li’s divine status as proof that Falun Gong can rightly be considered a religion. (Chang, 2004)

Chang opines: “If Li Hongzhi’s disciples can become gods by engaging in falun gong, it stands to reason that the founder of this cultivation practice must himself be a deity.”

According to Chang, the existence of Li’s law bodies combined with his claim to be without karma amount to an admission of his divine nature: “Li also maintained that human beings do not have law bodies and that only he – as well as buddhas, daos and gods – have law bodies. Falun Gong practitioners must wait until they have completed their cultivation, and attained buddhahood, to have such bodies.”

Allegations of elitism and intolerance in Falun Gong ethics

Critics of the Falun Gong have pointed out that aspects of Li’s system of morality can be considered elitist and intolerant.

Critics who see the Falun Gong as elitist point to what they see as a strong “us-versus- them” ethos in Falun Gong teachings.

According to Rahn (2000), one of the potential effects of this ethos “is the possibility of isolating practitioners from family and friends as well as non-practitioners in general. It can also help create a feedback loop system where practitioners only relate to other practitioners, thereby mutually reinforcing belief in the teachings, identification with the group, and eradication of any conflicting or alternative views.”

Li’s teachings on the importance of racial purity have provoked considerable controversy. Critics opine that Li is intolerant of racial differences

Is Falun Gong a cult?

Critics of Falun Gong in the West argue that because of the relationship of dependency that Li Hongzhi establishes between himself and his followers, using what they say are a variety of manipulative techniques, the Falun Gong should be thought of as a cult rather than a new religious movement or metaphysical qigong.

Omido 16:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you know how to insert a "citation needed" tag? Just put {{fact}} where you want a source referenced. I don't think of that as a major edit, just a way of letting people know where there's something that needs attention. CovenantD 17:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Convenant, I am really sorry for all those reverts, I am kinda new :) Omido 17:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Understood. The biggest thing to remember with the Falun Gong pages is to talk about major edits before making them. Anything is going to be controversial so it's best to avoid edit wars by making sure people agree on what's being changed or added. CovenantD 16:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
With a few exceptions, virtually all of this material is already sourced in the text (Eg: the Maria Chang book (2004) or the Patsy Rahn paper (2000) so your claim of missing sources doesn't make sense. I have updated the main page intro to the Difference between Falun Gong and Qi Gong and inserted a Chang reference that was previously missing. As to the rest, I am going to respond on the Talk: Criticism page, since that is where this discussion belongs anyway. --Tomananda 19:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reverts Deleting New Content

I strongly suspect people are copying the article to their own computers and making edits before copying back into Wikipedia. I made a series of changes to the article, and while some was left intact, the majority was reverted, incorrect spelling & grammar intact.Phanatical 19:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Enough is Enough: Dilip must receive a block sanction at this point

How many warnings can one editor get before his violation of Wiki standards results in a sanction? Dilip has repeatedly violated the 3RR policy, while also posting extremely deceptive edit summaries to conceal what he is actually doing through a series of hard-to-track edits. Some time ago he received a warning from Miborovsky. More recently, he received a warning (as did I) from another administrator. I honored that warning, but Dilip did not...about two hours later he returned to reverting or deleting material in the main article. Now, for the umpteenth time he has done it again, and quite deceptively. Here's a summary of his most recent violation of the 3RR policy, together with an explanation so that we can all understand the ultimate results of Dilip's editing:

  • 7:07 3 June 2006
  • 15:27 3 June 2006
  • 17:34 3 June 2006
  • 19:41 3 June 2006

I invite every administrator who accesses this article to review this sequence of edits and how Dilip summarized them in his edit summary. Here's the bottom line: Dilip evidently does not want Wikipedia to report Li's own statement about his origins in the Origins section. In some of these edits, Dilip simply deleted the entire Origins section (which pre-existed his History and Timeline page), in other edits he replaced the second paragraph with one of his own making, and in the final edit he was straightforward about what he wanted to do, saying in the edit summary: "removed the completely unsourced paragraph starting with 'In the beginning'"

That last edit by Dilip, done at 19:41 on 3 June, represented his 4th attempt in 24 hours to delete or delete and replace the same paragraph. It is a clear violation of Wiki rules and given that there is a long history of this violation on Dilip's part I insist that some action be taken. Is there no accountability in Wikipedia ever?

One more imporant point: The paragraph which Dilip seeks to eliminate is already sourced within the body of the text. It comes from an early edition of Zhuan Falun in Chinese whicih contained an official biography of Li Hongzhi--a biography which the publishers later on removed from subsequent editions. The source of the Li quote, therefore, is a Falun Gong publisher. The question we have to ask ourselves is this: why does Dilip not want this material reported in Falun Gong, since it comes from the first biography of his master and was published, in book form, by the Falun Gong itself? --Tomananda 21:37, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Dillip has been blocked for twelve hours for this violation, though he contests that it was not 3RR. I agree with you here that his reverts are often times complex partial reverts with deceptive edit summaries, and as I've warned him in the past, this behavior is completely unacceptable. At the same time, there are three editors to this article who are editing in a highly disruptive manner, and I'm tempted to protect the article yet again, which I think would be highly unfortunate. As I think Dillip should at least be allowed to voice his opinion on these matters on the talk page, I've made an ultimatum to him that if he can refrain from editing the article altogether for the next twenty-four hours, I will lift the block. AmiDaniel (talk) 21:46, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Ami! Maybe this will help settle the overall edits down and encourage more discussion, which would be a good thing. Let's give it a try. --Tomananda 21:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Dilip should be allowed to voice his opinion. However we should make sure he does not do that in the expenses of others. Before the page was unprotected there was discussion about the article paragraph by paragraph. We should continue that process. --Yueyuen 22:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Tomananda, please be a bit more restrained in your posts about Dilip's actions and reverts. It's getting very close to the first example of a personal attack because of it's repitition. Your feelings are recorded on the talk page and in the edit history, and there's a neutral-party admin keeping an eye on this page, so there's no need to expound on those again. A simple request to check the number of reverts, here and on AmiDaniel's page, will suffice in the future. CovenantD 16:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

This does not constitute a personal attack and it surprises me that you would even suggest it. In the above post I documented why a series of edits did, in fact, consitute a violation of the 3RR rule. Because Dilip often uses deceptive edit summaries while deleting critical material and adding new material, it is often not clear what the real effect of his edits has been. I have not said any thing about Dilip personally above, but I have characterized his edits as "deceptive"--which they are. Collaboration of that fact has come from several administrators: most recently Ami agreed he used deceptive edits, and previously Fire Star stated she had increasing difficulty believing what Dilip says about anything. And on top of that, you yourself used the "f" word to indicate your understandable frustration with Dilip's undiscussed deletions. To accuse me of personally attacking Dilip simply because I have done multiple postings on different occassions is unjustified. I have done multiple postings because Dilip has done multiple deltions, often in vilolation of the 3RR rule, and had actually received a warning from Miborovsky about it. --Tomananda 18:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not justifying or excusing or even talking about Dilip's actions - I'm talking about yours. I compared it to the first example of a personal attack because of your repetition. In some ways, you make my case for me. Admins are aware of the problem and are actively monitoring it. AmiDaniel appears to be very good at finding reverts - I think bringing it to hir attention is enough to bring action. If you feel the need to do a full report, there is a page for it. If you think my words are inaccurate, feel free to ignore them. I won't be offended. :-) CovenantD 20:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
PS - And to keep it neutral you might want to consider just asking that all editors be checked when you think one has violated 3RR. It often turns out that other editors are at three reverts, and that should be brought out too. CovenantD 17:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Sure, but your comment begs the question. I have done postings in the past asking for administrators to intervene and there has actually been some discussion among all the editors leading to suggestions that we should be permissive. But IMHO, the permissive strategy has not worked. I would rather that we all take a hard line on the 3RR policy in the future because I think the stability that will come from that will result in a better article. I agree that every editor must be held accountable for this policy...plus providing honest edit summaries so people can figure out what is happening. --Tomananda 18:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, which is why I'm pushing the idea of contacting AmiDaniel. S/he seems to be impartial so far, yet willing to wade in and take action. S/he also has a habit of counting everybody's reverts and making appropriate comments/warnings, another factor I find to be very useful. CovenantD 20:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, then, I will trust that Ami will do his job (I think he's a he) and apologize if I've been impatient. --Tomananda 21:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Master Li lectures practitioners for not taking criticism well in 2006 speech. Was it the first time he has done that?

Here's an intro I wrote for a block quote in the Ethics section:

In a speech in Los Angeles (2006), Li Hongzhi spoke for the first time about what he sees as a big problem—cultivators not accepting criticism well. He also suggested that practitioners may be too focused on making judgments about others

In a recent edit, Dilip replaced the lead sentence with:

In a speech in Los Angeles (2006) Li Hongzhi says:

Here are the key sections from the LA speech:

Sometimes, while validating the Fa, doing Dafa work in general, or in your own cultivation, many unsatisfactory things indeed exist. The most noticeable and biggest problem, which has gone unresolved for a long time, is also what the gods have been muttering in my ears, something that troubles them the most. But I have never emphasized it, and I haven't discussed it with strong words. Why is that? It's because Dafa disciples needed a little human courage as they were going about validating the Fa today. That is why I didn't talk about it. I wanted to save that discussion for the final time--I wanted to talk about it later on, when the time was more ripe. What is it, then? When Dafa disciples make mistakes, they do not like to be criticized. No one can criticize them, and when someone does, it sets them off. When they are right, they don't like others bringing up things they could improve on; when they are wrong, they don't want to be criticized. They get upset as soon as others criticize. The problem is becoming pretty bad. (Applause)
Why have I waited until now to talk about it? When you were validating the Fa and exposing the evil earlier on, I didn't want you to be too soft when doing things; in that case as you clarified the truth you would have been apt to do so at less than full strength. It would be a problem if, when others commented [negatively] as you clarified the truth, you just stopped right there, without giving any explanation. Now that you have become mature and rational, and know how to handle things, and now that [discussing this matter] will not affect your truth clarification, I am talking about what I had saved for today.
Now that Master has spoken about this in today's teaching of Fa here, from this point on you must start to take this matter seriously. (Enthusiastic Applause)

Dilip, it seems to me the Master Li directly says he waited until now to talk about (this problem). The fact that he has previously told practitioners they must accept criticism well does not mean that he has previously scolded them for not doing so. What’s new about this blockquote is not the moral teaching itself, but the pointed scolding he gives to practitioners for not living up to it.

I introduced the block quote with “Master Li spoke for the first time about what he sees as a big problem.” It is not reasonable for you to just delete that introduction with a deceptive edit summary. If you or another editor wants to suggest alternative wording for the introduction, that's fine. But your deletion of the entire introduction I wrote is not a cooperative editing thing to do. --Tomananda 22:38, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


Wikipedia has apolicy of no orginal research. But I completely disagree with your interpretations. What do you think culitvation practice is? Personal conclusions or interpretations you comeup with cannot be put in the article. 202.83.32.50 15:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi”

I just want to point out that Fnhddzs has just added an edit to the second paragraph of the origins section which cites a Benjamin Penny article about Li's first biography. What's important about Fnhddzs's edit is that for the first time a Falun Gong practitioner has admitted that the quote in fact did come from a book published by the Falun Gong. (Readers of this discussion will note that Dilip was just sanctioned for doing a series of 4 reverts which deleted this very paragraph for the alleged reason that it was unsourced.) So now the story is that the biographical statment is sourced, but that it had originally been written by a reporter and edited by the Falun Gong before they published it in the early version of the Zhuan Falun. I don't dispute any of that, and in fact think it is worth pointing out if it is true. However, why did we have to go through a potential revert war to come to this new understanding? For those interested, the Fnhddzs edit was done at 22:47 3 June. There are stylistic problems with the edit..it should be an independent paragraph and could be expressed more clearly, but it's a start. --Tomananda 23:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

At the beginning, Li introduced himself to the public as a master with the utmost supernatural powers and wisdom. In “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” which appeared as an appendix in the early version of the group’s bible Zhuan Falun, Li claimed to have been trained by numerous Masters in Buddhism and Taoism since the age of four and acquired supernatural powers at age of eight. He could levitate off the ground and become invisible simply by thinking "Nobody can see me.” Two other supernatural powers were his ability to control people’s movements by thoughts and to move himself anywhere he wanted by thought alone. Li also presented himself as the very embodiment of Truthfulness, Compassion and Tolerance and claimed to have discovered the truth of the universe…the origin of humankind and foresaw the development and future of the humankind.

This is completely unsourced. A version by A publsher in China carried a two page "biography" written by a journalist. Thats all .. What this para claims is something else...

  • “A Short Biography of Mr. Li Hongzhi” was written by FAlun dafa research society developed and chaired by Li. A shorter version with a different title was distributed by Li himself at the very beginning of his master career. This seventeen pages long bio was included in all chinese Zhuan Falun beofre 1999. Li has been very secretive about his origins. This bio provides info to the origin of his wisdom and power. It also talked about how he developed the Falun Gong system. --Samuel Luo 17:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
There needs to be a version that is avail for people to read. It doesn't have to be online, but it can't be a part of somebody's private collection either. It must be accessible for people to read for themselves. If there is an English translation that has been published, that should be used. It the only version available is Chinese, then that will have to be used. The first step is verifying that there is a version that is accessible by the public. CovenantD 17:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Information on source verification for Li's early biography in Zhuan Falun

The authorized biography of Li Hongzhi, which appeared as an appendix in earlier versions of Zhuan Falun, is totally legitmate as a source and since this is becoming an issue I will provide all the reasons why:

  • Earlier versions of Zhuan Falun containing Li's authorized biography are publicly available in some public libraries. They may be difficult to track down, but that difficulty is no justification for not allowing it as a source.
  • The authorized biography is described in detail by Benjamin Penny in his article "The Life and Times of Li Hongzhi: Falun Gong and Religious Biography."
  • In addition to summarizing the contents of the authorized biography, Penny makes several comments concerning its legitimacy. Since most editors probably have not seen the Penny article, I will quote verbatim from it:
When "The Life and times of Li Hongzhi" was released under the authorship of the research department of the Ministry of Public Security, the target of its attack was a biography of Li that has circulated both as an appendix to early editions of Zhuna Falun, the major book of the movement, and as a stand-alone text from the internet. Its English version is entitled "A short biography of Mr Li Hongzhi, founder of Falun Xiulian Dafa, President of the Research Society of Falun Buddha Science." This biography consists of an introduction and five parts and describes the life of Li Hongzhi, from his birth until late 1993. It's last sentence reads: "At present, Mr Li is heading his disciples to preach the Law and teach the cultivation exercise in big and medium-sized cities throughout the country." Thus, it was probably composed in late 1993 or 1994 and appears to have circulated freely for some five or six years afterwards. The biography is presented as a product of the Falun Gong Reserch Society (Falun gong yanjiuhui)appearing over their signature. Neither the current edition of Zhuan Falun nor its translation into English include this biogrpahical essay and it has also disappeared from the internet."
Importantly, in Li Hongzhi's Canadian lectures held on 23 May 1999 in Toronto, the status of the biography was explicitly addressed in a queastion and answer session:
Q: I want to recommend to a newspaper that they publish the Master's biography. Is this appropriate?
A. No. I don't want to speak about my own situation. Nobody should. Because everybody wanted to find out about me there was a very, very simple biography in Zhuan Falun. Now I would ask them to take it out. What I tell you about is the Law, everyone should study this Law. Have no interest in my circumstances! Just study the Law and that will lead you to consumation."
  • Although it's true that a similar and much longer version of this biography appeared in the first edition of Zhongguo falun gong..and that that biography was written by someone described as a journalist working for the magazine of the Chinese Association for Scientific Research into Qigong named Zhyu Huiguang...Dr. Penny concludes that the biography that was published in Zhuan Falun counts as an authorized biography. He does, however, discuss "discrepancies in accounts of Li's background" and speculates that a change in reported social status of Li may have been been done by the Zhuan Falun editors in order to help "prospective adherents to identify with someone with an 'average' social background, as opposed to the exceptional figure who rose from the gutter." Penny states:
In the later essay he (Li) is described as coming from "an ordinary intellectual's family." The effect of this change in social status is to shift Li from the "ideal" of a boy who had to overcome great hardships to attain his great triumph, to the "unexceptional" where he is represented as being little differenct from his friends.
  • Finally, although Penny states that the authorized biography is no longer available on the internet, it actually is by using one of the Archive search engines that have been described elsewhere in Wikipedia. For those who are interested in readin this document in English, you need to go to an archive search engine first, then enter this URL (which was provided by Penny in one of his many footnotes): http://www.compapp.dcu.ie/~dongxue/biography.html I downloaded a copy of the page yesterday and read it. Very interesting! --Tomananda 19:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
You present your case very well. CovenantD 19:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
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