Talk:Faith Lehane

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This page needs serious rework. The "Faith and Buffy" section should be incorporated entirely within the main article. Value judgements, or statement that verge dangerously on such, should be withheld. Statements should not be repeated unless absolutely necessary.

This page has been substantially rewritten in the last month or so. The Faith and Buffy section has been eliminated, and was recently replaced by a short (rewritten) summary of their dynamics under "relationships". The relationships section has been rewritten, expanded, and organized, and the character bio has also been rewritten. The Powers and Abilities section may need some further attention, if anyone has time. Riverbend 17:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Pending tasks for Faith Lehane:

 edit - history - watch - purge

Talk:Faith Lehane/to do
This to-do list was added by WikiProject Buffyverse. This template adds pages to Category:To do, Buffyverse. Please do not use this for stubs: use {{Buffyverse-stub}} instead.


Hey she's dead. She was killed we she reappeared in the Angel series- Isao

Oh.., sorry made a mistake-Isao


Working on an overhaul of this article. It will take a little time. Forgive if there are some redundancies while in mid-process. BarkingDoc 01:55, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Faiths Age

Is Fait really older then Buffy, I thought she was younger, I remeber one of the last episodes of the third serious were faith and buffy had their big brawl and faith was put into a coma that she referred Buffy as Big sister?

I don't remember that reference, but it also could have been meant metaphorically. I'm giving the original author the benefit of the doubt and assuming s/he had a reference for the birthdate, though I don't know what it is. (did it come from the role playing game? or perhaps Lindsay's file on Faith?) BarkingDoc

Big Sister was a reference to Dawn's coming in season 5. I believe an interview with SMG revealed this (though it was more about when Dawn was really created by Whedon). Ekarderif 22:31, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Faith's birthday and age were never mentioned on the show, but it was always implied that she was younger than Buffy. Eliza Duhsku is about four years younger than Sarah Michelle Gellar, it was made clear that Slayers are usually called in their mid-teens (if Faith was really born in 1980, she'd have been pushing 18 when she was called, which is three years older than Buffy was), and her entire look and attitude was based around a child trying to appear adult.

In Faith, Hope and Trick Buffy refers to Faith as her "bestest new little sister." In Graduation Day I, Faith says of Buffy "Look at you, all dressed up in big sister's clothes."Don Sample 08:32, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

In Faith, Hope and Trick Buffy may not have any actual idea of Faith's exact date of birth (and Faith not have any idea exactly how old Buffy is), and calling Faith her "bestest new little sister" likely just reflects the fact that Buffy's behaviour (and her appearance) are more mature than Faith's. But just because SMG is older than ED, and because Faith looks and behaves like someone younger than Buffy does not mean that Faith is actually younger than Buffy. The novel Go Ask Malice, is presented as Faith's diary taking place at the same time as Buffy Season 2. It has her 17th birthday on December 14th 1997 (meaning she's born December 14th 1980). Meaning according to this (uncanon) source she is about one month older than Buffy. -- Paxomen 15:02, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
The "Faith, Hope & Trick" script describes her as "18ish". Apparently the December 14th, 1980 date is originally from the Angel Casefiles book, though where they got it from is anyone's guess.--Nalvage 21:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Nice find, I have the shooting scripts but I've hardly looked at them. Someone at Whedonesque said "They got her birthday right as per "Five by Five" (http://whedonesque.com/comments/10801) but I'm not sure where the info was coming from in that episode about Faith's DOB? Also does anyone know where in "Casefiles" it says the Faith DOB? -- Paxomen 00:22, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
The Ange: Casefiles Vol. 1 page reference for the December 14, 1980 DOB is in "Sanctuary" not "Five by Five" (page 168). It's an image of a fictional 'Police Bulletin', not sure if it appears in the episode, if it was some material that was made for but never used in the episode, or if Casefile authors Mariotte/Hart made it themselves (though I'd guess the latter being unlikely)? -- Paxomen 12:08, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Chosen Two

I have removed a chunk of unsourced fan "opinionating" from the section titled "The Chosen Two" and replaced it with some factual information derived from episode content, including ep references. I reverted a second attempt to restore the unsourced material. Wikipedia articles must contain only information backed up by reliable sources, not fan speculation or theorizing. I ask the diligent anonymous editors trying to establish this text to provide such reliable sources (not fan websites and discussion forums, but notable publications) before attempting to re-add it. Thank you. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 20:49, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

After a long series of reversions (narrowly dodging WP:3RR by using different IPs), yet another anonymous editor made a new attempt to restore the fancruft, but with some linked evidence. Thank you for that effort. Unfortunately, the source is something called "Orbzine", which is nothing more than a fan mag from a user ("Speculator") of broadband provider NTLWorld.com. This is not a reliable source by Wikipedia's definitions. Furthermore, the page, titled "Articles & Interviews: Joss Whedon (June 2002)", is misleading, in that it initially looks like a transcript of an interview (from an undated and unidentified convention, worse yet), but actually contains quite a bit of text referring to Joss Whedon in the third person, strongly suggesting that someone else (also unidentified) wrote it.
In principle, some of the information these anonymous users are trying to add makes sense. In all likelihood, the Slayer line is continued through Faith (or would have been, had Buffy not changed things in "Chosen"). The problem is that we editors are not allowed to theorize. That is original research, which is verboten on Wikipedia. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 16:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Faith's Last Name

I'm aware that Faith is often given 'Lehane' as a last name in fanfic ('Spencer' is also quite common) but do not recall it ever being mentioned in the TV series, any of the canonical episode guide books or the official RPGs. This may make the name fanon rather than canon.

Is there any canon reference to Faith's last name? I'm loathe to just edit the entry to reflect the query on the provenance of the name incase it's in a reference I just haven't seen. --Stephenboothuk 23:33, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Whedon picked the name 'Lehane' after the peeps who made Buffyverse role-playing games asked what Faith's surname was. So it's pretty much accepted canon. -- Paxomen 02:06, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Interesting. I have the Eden Studios game and her last name isn't mentioned. Maybe it was in a later edition? The use of the name in fanfic certainly predates the publication of the game in 2003. --Stephenboothuk 10:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Post at Whedonesque from AlexJurkat

AlexJurkat is someone who compiled the RPG book, "The Watcher Sourcebook"

"Yep, Faith's last name (and Kendra's) were devised for a roleplaying game .. . actually two roleplaying games--the Buffy the Vampire Slayer roleplaying game (btvsrpg.com) and the Angel roleplaying game (angelrpg.com). The most recent supplement under production involves the Watchers. As Watchers span both series, Tea and Crossbows: The Watcher Sourcebook will be our first cross-branded product (Buffy and Angel). Come to think of it, rather than the Buffyverse or Angelverse or even Slayerverse (as we started calling it around here), maybe we should be calling the Buffy/Angel storyline (and any that follow in the future) the Watcherverse. Lord knows the Watchers Council would prefer that.

In truth, that's part of why we needed surnames for Faith and Kendra. The Watcher sourcebook will include a history of the Watchers that spans recorded history and beyond (they do claim descent from the gaggle of old guys who created the first Slayer). Since the only records of that history are those maintained by the Watchers, you can see the huge potential for bias in reporting (if not, you haven't been paying attention to the Watchers much). Also, the tone and presentation of that history follow Watcher wont (i.e., stuffy and formal). In our view, "Slayer Faith" and "Slayer Kendra" didn't fit at all. Not only would the Watcher-recorded history include their names (if the Watchers don't know, who the heck would?), but they would use it. They certainly wouldn't make an exception to appear particularly "chummy" with either of those two, as neither can be counted among the Watchers' greatest triumphs. Slayer Summers was "indeed severely trying and undisciplined," but at least she got the job done for many years. The other two were either "ineffective or extremely counter-productive."

In any event, we had created surnames for both Slayer and were prepared to go that route but decided to see if we could get a definite ruling from the PTB on the issue. Lo and behold, Joss spoke (and quickly we might add). We had hoped to keep the names under wraps as a selling point for the Watcher book sourcebook. Hey, we can dream, can't we? Should've known the word would get out. What the hey, part of why Buffy/Angel fans are the best.

Thanks for listing. Check out the roleplaying games. Keep the Watcherverse alive!" (whedonesque.com)


[edit] Post from Whedon

"There was this role playing game or something. They said she hadda have a last name for her so I chose Lehane 'cause I wanted something southie, just as you thought. So if you hate the name. oops." (whedonesque.com)

[edit] Picture

The picture states that this is Eliza Dushku as Faith, however that's not Faith, it's just an Eliza Dushku publicity photo. She has the wrong tattoo on her arm. user:mathewignash

I think the pic works. She's in general Faith costume and on Buffy set (looks like Joyce's room in season seven. I actually like the pic to be honest

[edit] Personality Disorder?

Was it actually revealed in the show that Faith had a borderline personality disorder? I don't remember anyone ever actually diagnosing her and wanted to check. Riverbend 18:10, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing this!Riverbend 15:31, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] should the watchers be in the relationship part?

I am wondering if Faith's Watchers should be in the part about her relationships. I expanded that section in general, those were there already and I wasn't sure whether they really belong there or not. I just don't know if one Watcher that is barely mentioned in the series, or one Watcher that got some of Faith's misplaced trust in one confrontation, should really count as relationships for the purposes of this section. I can see that her relationships with her Watchers would be significant, in that they would be a constant, reliable presence in her life, and her trust in anyone is out of the ordinary for her, but from looking at other buffyverse character pages it seems like they are mostly romantic relationships, or close friendships with romantic overtones. If they aren't taken out, perhaps someone would want to expand them so that their importance in her life (stabling force, or whatever) is more clear...??? Riverbend 22:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


Yeah I see, what you mean. I created the relationships section, but have to say your clean up and additions improved it a lot. I wasn't sure about whether to include the Watcher's under that section, but thought it was important as unlike many of the other character's, Faith's attatchments are far more complicated. I can see what you mean about their inclusion deferring slightly from the usual trend of romantic relationships, I think perhaps I'll add in a sub-heading of "Romantic" and "Other" to seperate the two.


That is much better - good job! I think that whole section is coming together.  :) Riverbend 22:59, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


One more thing - it says later in this article that the Go Ask Malice book reveals her first Watcher's name as Diana Dormer (or something like that) - was that ever mentioned in the series? is that book canon? Just wondering if we could put the name of the first watcher in. Riverbend 23:04, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Why not, might as well just add "Diana Dormer", maybe bracket it with a note that it's only given in Go Ask Malice, therefore were not explicitly stating it's the genuine name, but it'll look better with a name anyway, seeing as everyone else in that section has a name. Oh! and also, perhaps if we expanded upon this section, we could reference the relationships Faith alludes to in season 3's "Revelations" she's having a conversation, and lists a bunch of dead-beats she's dated. I don't have the quote to hand though..and seeing as it needn't be a big portion of the section, I think it'll be best just to give the full quote, with a little bracketed note explaining what it's about,

on it  :) Riverbend 23:32, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


thanks, i sorted out that Diana Dormer thing, and changed the relationships round a bit. I didn't think Angel or Spike really fitted in with the sexual and romantic relationships, but thought they shared a bit of affinity with Faith, so grouped them together.


Works for me. I found that quote and put it in. Good work! Riverbend 23:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that's great. Would have done it myself, but don't have a clue where to look for transcripts, and all my copies of the show are miles and miles away at the moment, lol. I added in a little line after your comment about how Faith has trouble with intimacy "as evident in all encounters below" thought it helped feed into Robin, Xander, Riley. Phew...I think i'll call it a night editing Faith now, lol. Haven't been doing this on wiki for long but already I'm hooked, lol. BTW where abouts are you? Just wondering after our little converse here, lol

Ok couldn't help myself, tidied the a few sections up, just adding episode links where they were missing

I know the feeling. . . I worked some more on the intros in this section, I like that you put them in, provided helpful context, I just reworded them a little. Yeah, I have all the DVDs here next to me. . . (and from TN) Riverbend 00:09, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


I reworked the headings a little bit, see what you think. It may have been better the other way, but take a look. . . Riverbend 15:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, one more thing - there is now the descrip. of Faith and Angel in the relationships section, but there is also some Faith-Angel stuff in Trivia that is now redundant. Any problem with me removing that part from the trivia, to avoid redundancy? Riverbend 15:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, like the tweaks to the relationship section, looks lot better now

[edit] The stuff on dreams

So, at the end of the Sunnydale section, there is some stuff about their shared dreams. Any objections if I streamline that part down into like one sentence? Riverbend 22:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I say go for it. You only really need to ask on the Talk page if you think an edit's likely to be controversial. Basic improving of the prose, or streamlining should just be charged into, I think.--Nalvage 06:50, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Done. I am usually really heavy-handed with edits, but I worry sometimes that I am making too many changes without consulting the community. . . Thanks for the advice! Riverbend 17:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
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