Talk:Faggot (epithet)

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Contents 1 Biblical Allusion 2 Religious references 3 Batty boy 4 Discussion on merge with Fag (pejorative) 5 Slang 6 Using, "fag," to mean a cigarette 7 Epithet 8 Broadening of Meaning 9 Faggotry 10 Fagging 11 fag-end, faggot-end, faggot-girl, & mutton

[edit] Biblical Allusion

I have studied Biblical passages used in the debate on homosexuality extensively. There is no passage about the fires of Hell being stoked by homosexuals. I can only assume that there is a passage that some interpret in this way but without a citation of chapter and verse this is impossible to say. This is an unsupported (and I believe completely unfounded) statement.

To the comment below, the Bible does not use the term 'mortal sin' for any offense. This is a theological term that developed in later Catholic teaching. 24.15.91.98 15:53, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

If I may comment, being a born-again Believer I'd like to add my two cents. According to Romans 1:26-27, homosexuality is indeed a sin because it goes against the natural order God set up for the world. However, it is no worse a sin than any other.

In either case, this statement in the article should either be removed or include a citation. As it stands it is incredibly misleading. I also haven't read Romans 1:26-27, but paraphrasing it doesn't really say much. What is the EXACT reference? For example, if it uses the term sodomy, this is not limited to homosexuals or homosexual acts as noted in most dictionaries and, specifically in Wikipedia: "The term is most commonly used to describe the specific act of anal sex between two males or a male and a female. The term "sodomy" also may include non-coital sexual acts ranging from oral sex to paraphilia." —Smack416 18:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

Further to the above paragraph, I believe this is an accurate reference of Romans 1:26-27: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence [sic] of their error which was meet."

Unfortunately, this is out of context. "For this cause" is referring to statements previously made in Romans 1:20-25. (Reference here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%201&version=9;) Regardless, it is not a statement of fact, nor could it be interpreted that the bible states the "fires of Hell being stoked by homosexuals." based on Romans 1:26-27.

As stated in the Wikipedia article: "Alternatively, the Bible is claimed to refer to homosexuals stoking the fires of hell (Sodom and Gomorrah)." Any Tom, Dick, or Priest could back this statement up, sure. It only takes one person to state this claim, technically. But, where is the citation? And is it enough if a single person or small group of people make a statement that has no clear relation to the source material. Really, why is this misleading statement still published in this article? —Smack416 18:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Religious references

For clarity: The Bible and Catholicism do not state that homosexual people are going to hell, but that the act of homosexual intercourse is a mortal sin, falling into the category of lust called "the unnatural vice". Saying that all homosexuals are going to hell would be cruel, since people who are born with the inclination would be condemned from birth, no matter what they did.

EDIT: and this isn't a diatribe on religion, it is an explanation as to why I changed the paragraph under "Biblical Allusion".

Don't give an Ameriflag 21:08, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Batty boy

Whilst "poof" and "queer" are very common British English terms, I have never heard "batty boy" used outside of rap music. I'm not sure it's fair to say that it's a common British English term… — OwenBlacker 22:34, Aug 26, 2004 (UTC)

It's actually Jamaican, I think. Tuf-Kat 23:51, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, apparently so, according to batty boy. Tuf-Kat 23:51, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

And while we're on the subject of brit slang, what the hell is up with faggot meaning someone SILLY OR FOOLISH LIKE A BUNCH OF STICKS EH WHAT PIP PIP? Are you people stuck in some kind of 19th century time warp here?

A lot of black british males use batty boy, or "batty boieeee". Take me word for it, I've been called it many a times in Northern England myself (meeep). [date]

It's also been popularised somewhat by Ali G, though it's unlikely people who get it from him use it seriously. I have to say, by the way, that I've never heard or used faggot to mean silly or foolish. To me (except in American films) it's always been a kind of pork meatball; and a fag is a cigarette Garik 14:35, 16 May 2006 (BST)

[edit] Discussion on merge with Fag (pejorative)

• Support. Exploding Boy 21:16, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
• Also Support. --Bcshell 05:09, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
• Strong support - "fag" is the more common usage today, but they are essentially the same word with the same cultural elements that should be documented by WP. -Harmil 12:40, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Followup: When they are merged, the target should either be Faggot (slang) or Fag (slang), but not Fag (pejorative), since the word is not always used in a pejorative sense. -Harmil 23:26, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

I was bold, and went ahead and did the merge. I chased down all of the old links and updated as well. Since Fag (pejorative) was so short, there was little to merge. Just the mention of current use in the UK, so I pulled that over and redriected. -Harmil 17:19, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Slang

Slang is a very biased term that implies judgments about the value of a word based on who uses it and in what context. It carries with it a negative connotation about both the word and its users. I think this page should be moved to Faggot (epithet). Any comments? Dave 05:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that while the new page name doesn't bother me all that much, the above makes no sense at all. Slang is simply common usage, and I have no idea what the "value of a word" is. Value in what units or relative to what? "Yo mamma" is slang. That doesn't make it particularly good or bad, but it probably indicates that your expected not to use it when writing in a formal or educational context. "Fag" is also a slang term and the same applies. -Harmil 02:04, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Using, "fag," to mean a cigarette

I've lived in England all my life and have only ever heard the word fag used to mean a cigarette. This is the case in both the north and South of England, to an extent that most English people would be confused to hear a person refered to as a fag (at least initially.) In recent years, its use in American films has allowed English people to understand the reference, but fag is always used to mean a cigarette and is inoffensive. In no way would the word be associated with homosexuality, even by a homophobic or homosexual English person. Ian Evans 16 January 2006

That may be the case in England, but, if you noticed, at the beginning of the article it says "In common American usage". This is an article about the American derrogatory term.

Yes, but I think Ian Evans was talking about the British Slang section of the article. I'm from Wales, and I've lived in England and Scotland too. Although I've never heard a Brit use the word to mean 'gay', I think most would understand it to have that meaning if the speaker had an American accent. Garik 18:39, 10 May 2006 (BST)

===I couldn't disagree more with Ian Evans. I grew up in the SW of England where we frequently used the word as a derogatory insult (as well as its common slang term for cigarette). This was and still is the same in London where I live now.

[edit] Epithet

An epithet is something like a nickname or a title added to a person's name, such as Alexander the Great. "Faggot" would only be an epithet if it was used in a similar way, such as Alexander the Faggot. TharkunColl 23:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

• An epithet is indeed a nickname or title "imposed" on someone, and thus it can be either complimentary or insulting. You've given examples of both. Which one is which depends on your POV. Either way, young Alex was famous among all his men for having the biggest... sword. >:) Wahkeenah 00:22, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Broadening of Meaning

Lately the younger generation seems to use fag/faggot as a general purpose insult with no set meaning and no care towards sexual orientation at all. How much of such a trend has to go on before it warrants a mention here? Howdoesthiswo 15:15, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, I couldn't disagree more. While straight people who use that word may feel like it is not offending anybody or targeting anybody in particular, that word plays a vital role in the enforcement of heteronormative gender roles in American public schools. In my opinion, while it is easy for straight people to believe that they are not hurting anybody in uttering things like "fag", it is the people to whom this word applies that offense in that word is obvious. Fokion 04:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Simply stating such would be original research, however, if you can find an authoritative source that confirms your understanding, you should cite it in the article. -Harmil 02:13, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

That's just tangential though, because there are so many things throughout wikipedia and even in this article that do not have citations. Take the sentence "'Fag' and 'Faggot' have historically been two of the most offensive terms that could be addressed to an American man or adolescent boy.", for instance. It seems as though this statement is "pending citation", but has been allowed in without it because no one has come forward who disagrees with it and challenges it. It is quite false to say that one must cite sources on wikipedia. If this were true, the encyclopedia would be much smaller from all the deletions. It is good that we do not delete material without citations that seems credible or widely held to be true, because if no one challenges it, it is like a work in progress, pending citation. And as this usage of fag is very widespread, I think all contributors will fall into two categories: those who are familiar with this usage and will allow a discussion of it pending citation, and those who are unfamiliar with it but do not necessarily believe it not to exist. Thus no one will come forward to challenge its accuracy until someone finds appropriate examples in mainstream communication, which, in any event, should not be hard to find. Of course, you may just reiterate the "policy", but it still seems that wikipedia's articles widely lack appropriately extensive support while nonetheless being pretty accurate, because people will cut out false stuff they "know" to be false and leave in stuff they have no first-hand knowledge of or know to be true. In fact, Wikipedia IS original research, or, rather, we cite our intellects when editing articles. Only obscure or controversial topics have a more urgent need for citation, because in the first case, few people will know anything about the topic, and in the second, different people will have different viewpoints. This usage of faggot is neither obscure nor controversial, and precedent suggests it be allowed in, unless someone believes it to be false152.163.100.8 00:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

faggots come from the english west midlands, a Black_Country(the part of the country where all the black smoke used to be) dish called "faggots and peas", pronounced faggytsunpays its like bits a meat n onions with like a skin, in a brown ball, served with gravy, I dunno how you make em you have to ask the people at the "black country living museum" to get the most authentic recipy. its usually served with gravy, the peas can be mushy. where I live on the south staffordshire black country border we tend to use other worlds like sheartlifta qaya, qayabugga, puffta,, wolly wufta, arse bandit, qayer ba*****, the other words are starting to apppear such as faggot buts thats only because of the jamaican immigrants and on the television, it may of been an old word preserved in american english that wants to reapear in the mother country, maybe americans have forgotten what faggots really are and what they tasted like after they lived in the new country for too long. I've seen faggot in hhhhholliwood movies most the time the people who say it have southern accents, I dont think it origonated from the northen states, or maybe its both, in some small area of ingland the word never completly died out, because where i live faggot for a gay person is quite common, i also happen to live in the place where faggots were first eaten.

-paul —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.10 (talk • contribs) 19:54, 9 March 2006.

[edit] Faggotry

Missing is a section on the art and practice of faggotry.

[edit] Fagging

I have also heard "fag" use as a transitive verb in England. It means to wear out or tire. I think this is why public school boys were said to "fag" for the older boys when they ran errands. They would often serve them sexually. It was also used as a noun for such boys. I think it is commonly thought that a cigarette is a fag because it makes you short of breath to smoke them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.147.55.201 (talk • contribs) 10:02 22 July 2006 (UTC).

Yes but its likely the uses of 'faggot' and 'fag' are connected (it also makes sense that cigarettes are called fags on that ground) Like the article points out the words have a number of uses and have a number of ways they are also used to be derogatory. But something I think people might be missing is its likely that there is no completely direct connection to homosexuality; that it was sort of used at different times as more general term and form of derision, and only became narrowed down to homosexuality later when the more general language went out of fashion. Or in a alternatively but in a similar sense there were just a collection of uses that owed to many different derivations into derogatory uses because of the similarity. (words like 'dog' are used in different types of ways for derision)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Brianshapiro (talk • contribs).

Brian - no; OED sees no connection between faggot (from French) & fag (origin unclear, perhaps from flag in the sense of getting tired, around which most of its many meanings cluster. The cigarette meaning comes from fag-end (see below), coming to mean the whole cigarette. first citation 1888, when they were still supposed to improve breathing etc. Johnbod 02:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] fag-end, faggot-end, faggot-girl, & mutton

I have deleted the following: It is also possible that the meaning derives from the use of the word as a derogatory term for street prostitutes, female and male, because of their association with the gutter, where "faggot-ends" (or fag-ends) of meat were thrown by butchers.[3] (and the ref, which I'll add below)

- because it is not supported by the OED reference given, and the OED has no mention of "faggot-end" at all; it is "fag-end", still in common use in the UK,OED 2: "the last part or portion of anything", deriving from OED 1:"the last part of a piece of cloth". Nor is "faggot-girl", supposed C19 British, in the OED. Reference? Where the butchers throwing meat into the street come from who knows. The mutton quote comes from 1613; the prostitutes supposedly from the late C19 (see below). This non-association seems to have survived any number of edits on this article, but its time has come.

This is a fairly ancient version of the section (lost date,sorry): " Prostitution + "Faggot" - It is more likely this use of faggot was originally a derogatory term for street prostitutes, female and male, because they were associated with "the gutter", where "faggot-ends" of meat were thrown by butchers. The term "faggot girls" for prostitutes is attested from the late 19th century. Often perceived still as gender traitors, homosexual men are still often spoken of as "girls," and there were probably a number of male prostitutes at the same time referred to as "faggot boys". In either case, it would be a short leap from "faggot girl" meaning "prostitute" to "faggot" meaning "homosexual male"—probably starting with male prostitutes who tend to serve primarily or exclusively male customers." Johnbod 01:53, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

lost the reference of course - but it will be in the history Johnbod 01:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

all this was in the "etymology" section of course Johnbod 01:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)