Talk:FA Premier League

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There should be a section on criticism of the EPL. It has become money obsessed, players are now getting paid vast sums of money. The atmosphere in most all seater grounds is terrible with many working class fans being priced out of the game. The various kick off times are ridiculous and it has done little to improve the performance of the England team. Top players still go abroad and top foreign players still prefere Spain and Italy.

Contents 1 Competition 2 Past Premier League winners 3 Team Colours 4 Records - mistake? 5 NPOV 6 Separate articles 7 Just a note... 8 Trivia section 9 Spurs Badge 10 League schedule? 11 Name of Broadcast song 12 All Time League Table 13 Current League Table 14 All Time FA Premier League Table 15 RSS 16 FA Premier League Winners to date 17 List of managers 18 Infobox 19 "Worldwide" section 20 Newspaper coverage 21 Should it stay or should it go? 22 Attendances 23 Foreign players 24 Historical Influences of Relgion 25 My revert 26 The Establishment section seems odd 27 Domination 28 HDTV 29 Total games in a season? 30 Bolton v Fulham picture 31 Premier League vs FA Cup

[edit] Competition

Can somebody add the time of year the premiership matches are played to the competition section? For an outsider, it seems like it would be useful information, but is currently not included. Thanks.

I can't see how the winner is decided anywhere in the article. 'League' competitions in some countries have a finals series at the end to determine the champion, so this was a source of confusion for me. Does anyone agree?

Great point. I think the edit I just made should now cover both of the above issues. - Pal 02:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the edit --Ben Di Luca 10:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Past Premier League winners

Would it not be best to put this table with the most recent at the top? Frankie Roberto, 12:24, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Team Colours

Team Colours need to be corrected for some clubs, I have corrected up to Fulham. I find it's best to use the shop on the official sites for the colours. Mpbx3003, 10:44 06 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Records - mistake?

Most Clean Sheets In A Season - Chelsea

Is this definitely correct? According to question three of The Guardian's Tackle Hansen, this record is held by Manchester United. Can anyone confirm/deny this? --LAW 09:57, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

This is definitely correct. Chelsea had 25 last season, Man U's previous record was 24, set in 1994-95 (see http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/3398616). --Howcheng 17:45, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Top Scorers 1997-98 Andrew Cole also scored 18 league goals that season

[edit] NPOV

This article is littered with non-NPOV and unresearched claims. For instance:

• 'the FA Premier League is said to be the most popular league of any sport in the world' -- said by who? On what grounds?

"And lots of people are watching. The Premier League is the world's highest earning soccer league. Deloitte's Sports Business Group reported average revenue per club was 66.3 million pounds ($144.3 million Cdn) in 2003 2004 -- 50 per cent above the nearest competitor, Italy's Serie A." (Sportsnet.ca article) --Munkeyjunkey 19:58, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

• '[Chelsea] fans are now known for their astonishing amnesia as to the utter mediocrity from whence they came' -- amusing but totally non-NPOV.

Someone with a better knowledge of football than me needs to fix this -- I've listed the page as non-neutral and needing cleanup. --Ngb 08:51, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

I've sourced the "most popular" reference and moved the "Worldwide reach" section up into "Overview" to make it more clear. I've also rewritten the sentence to be more NPOV (and moved that whole section to another article, while I was at it). As a result, I'm taking out the NPOV tag. I'll leave the cleanup one in, though, for the time being. --Howcheng 17:45, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

• 'However a combination of Sky’s marketing strategy, the quality of the FA Premier League football and the public’s appetite for the game has seen the value of the FA Premier League’s broadcast rights soar and delivered huge benefits to the game.'

Not as non-NPOV as the above, but unless you're a fan of the big three (or a player!) it's IMHO highly arguable. Dave.Dunford 06:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair point, I removed the last part of that quote. - Pal 13:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Separate articles

It seems to me that perhaps the "Curse of Christmas" and "The Premiership-Football League gulf" sections should probably be moved to their own articles. Any objections? --Howcheng 17:45, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Since there were no objections, I moved the "Premiership-Football League gulf" to a new article, but left "Curse of Christmas". --Howcheng 17:22, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Just a note...

The lion logo has changed slightly this season - still triangular but far less horizontally symmetrical.

[edit] Trivia section

"Always contained a team who's name began with W" - so what? There's always been one with A as well, Arsenal. I'm sure there are other letters too (E - Everton, L - Liverpool, M - Manchester, N - Newcastle. Bob Palin 15:05, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

agreed 81.106.152.105 18:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spurs Badge

I have changed the Spurs badge on the list of teams to the new 'official' badge - this will be used from now on and will feature on the Spurs kit from next season - so thought i'd bring the list up to date.--Cavs 16:59, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] League schedule?

Silly question perhaps, but what's the schedule of the league? --Robert Merkel

[edit] Name of Broadcast song

Whats the name of the song they play of tv for EPL? Its kinda techno/dance - no words. If you know, could you please tell me! I have been humming it for about a fortnight!!!--Hamedog^Talk|@ 14:32, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Catchy, isn't it? I'd love to know more about it too. Xiner 17:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] All Time League Table

Here's the data for all the league results in the Premiership, I dont know how to put it in table format so if someone wants to then they could do that. It would be handy for settling office disputes etc...

Pos     Team                    Plyd     W       D       L       F       A      GD      Points
1       Manchester United       506     314     118     74      985     455     530     1060
2       Arsenal                 506     269     139     98      843     452     391     946
3       Liverpool               506     240     129     137     811     527     284     849
4       Chelsea                 506     232     143     131     776     504     272     839
5       Newcastle United        464     201     125     138     727     549     178     728
6       Aston Villa             506     193     146     167     626     577     49      725
7       Leeds United            468     189     125     154     641     573     68      692
8       Tottenham Hotspur       506     177     132     197     661     694     -33     663
9       Blackburn Rovers        430     171     119     140     599     511     88      632
10      Everton                 506     163     138     205     617     690     -73     627
11      Southampton             506     150     137     219     596     711     -115    587
12      West Ham United         388     132     104     152     462     535     -73     500
13      Middlesbrough           384     119     114     151     458     524     -66     471
14      Coventry City           354     99      112     143     387     490     -103    409
15      Sheffield Wednesday     316     101     89      126     409     453     -44     392
16      Wimbledon               316     99      94      123     384     472     -88     391
17      Manchester City         316     90      97      129     370     434     -64     367
18      Leicester City          308     84      90      134     314     410     -96     342
19      Charlton Athletic       228     72      64      92      267     327     -60     280
20      Bolton Wanderers        228     66      66      96      262     340     -78     264
21      Derby County            228     67      62      99      251     331     -80     263
22      Nottingham Forest       198     60      59      79      229     287     -58     239
23      Ipswich Town            202     57      53      92      219     312     -93     224
24      Queens Park Rangers     164     59      39      66      224     232     -8      216
25      Sunderland              190     55      49      86      188     266     -78     214
26      Norwich City            164     50      51      63      207     257     -50     201
27      Fulham                  152     49      41      62      181     200     -19     188
28      Crystal Palace          160     37      49      74      160     243     -83     160
29      Birmingham              114     36      35      43      124     143     -19     143
30      Sheffield United        84      22      28      34      96      113     -17     94
31      Oldham Athletic         84      22      23      39      105     142     -37     89
32      Portsmouth              76      22      18      36      90      113     -23     84
33      Bradford City           76      14      20      42      68      138     -70     62
34      West Bromwich Albion    76      12      24      40      65      126     -61     60
35      Barnsley                38      10      5       23      37      82      -45     35
36      Wolverhampton Wanderers 38      7       12      19      38      77      -39     33
37      Swindon Town            42      5       15      22      47      100     -53     30
38      Watford                 38      6       6       26      35      77      -42     24

I've put the data into a table format. But you should probably add at what date it was correct. --Hopex 16:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure the table is accurate and complete? The GD sums up to 92. So either some teams are missing or there is something else strange going on. At the very least, a footnote would be nessary IMHO to explain this Nil Einne 11:35, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I formatted the table in more wiki style:

Pos	Team	Played	W	D	L	F	A	GD	Points
1	Manchester United	506	314	118	74	985	455	530	1060
2	Arsenal	506	269	139	98	843	452	391	946
3	Liverpool	506	240	129	137	811	527	284	849
4	Chelsea	506	232	143	131	776	504	272	839
5	Newcastle United	464	201	125	138	727	549	178	728
6	Aston Villa	506	193	146	167	626	577	49	725
7	Leeds United	468	189	125	154	641	573	68	692
8	Tottenham Hotspur	506	177	132	197	661	694	-33	663
9	Blackburn Rovers	430	171	119	140	599	511	88	632
10	Everton	506	163	138	205	617	690	-73	627
11	Southampton	506	150	137	219	596	711	-115	587
12	West Ham United	388	132	104	152	462	535	-73	500
13	Middlesbrough	384	119	114	151	458	524	-66	471
14	Coventry City	354	99	112	143	387	490	-103	409
15	Sheffield Wednesday	316	101	89	126	409	453	-44	392
16	Wimbledon	316	99	94	123	384	472	-88	391
17	Manchester City	316	90	97	129	370	434	-64	367
18	Leicester City	308	84	90	134	314	410	-96	342
19	Charlton Athletic	228	72	64	92	267	327	-60	280
20	Bolton Wanderers	228	66	66	96	262	340	-78	264
21	Derby County	228	67	62	99	251	331	-80	263
22	Nottingham Forest	198	60	59	79	229	287	-58	239
23	Ipswich Town	202	57	53	92	219	312	-93	224
24	Queens Park Rangers	164	59	39	66	224	232	-8	216
25	Sunderland	190	55	49	86	188	266	-78	214
26	Norwich City	164	50	51	63	207	257	-50	201
27	Fulham	152	49	41	62	181	200	-19	188
28	Crystal Palace	160	37	49	74	160	243	-83	160
29	Birmingham	114	36	35	43	124	143	-19	143
30	Sheffield United	84	22	28	34	96	113	-17	94
31	Oldham Athletic	84	22	23	39	105	142	-37	89
32	Portsmouth	76	22	18	36	90	113	-23	84
33	Bradford City	76	14	20	42	68	138	-70	62
34	West Bromwich Albion	76	12	24	40	65	126	-61	60
35	Barnsley	38	10	5	23	37	82	-45	35
36	Wolverhampton Wanderers	38	7	12	19	38	77	-39	33
37	Swindon Town	42	5	15	22	47	100	-53	30
38	Watford	38	6	6	26	35	77	-42	24

I used de:Wikipedia:Helferlein/VBA-Macro for EXCEL tableconversion and some minor manual edits with the help of Meta:Help:Table Nil Einne 12:33, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current League Table

Is there any reason no one has every put up a current league table that would be updated as results occurred? I thouht about doing it, but I wondered if there was a reason no one else had.

Because the current league table is in the FA Premier League 2005-06 article. I think there was opposition to putting it in this article before. Mark272 09:06, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] All Time FA Premier League Table

This table is clearly incorrect. It gives Man U a season more (and correspondingly higher number of games played) than all of the other teams that have been in the Premiership since its inception. This includes Arsenal and Liverpool (both of whom in fairness would still be behind Man U in the table). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.104.228.185 (talk • contribs) .

Thank you for pointing this out. I have traced the edit back to when the table was correct and re-entered that version. I hope to update the table up to the present date within the next 24 hours. Alias Flood 23:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I had informed User:Mark272 on his talk page that I was in the process of updating the table but he has updated it in part once more. I have reverted. I hope to put the new table up to include 2005/6 within the hour. The table will show the number of championships won although it will be by points total. Before any amendments are made to the table by other editors, it would be useful if we could have discussion here please. I will add a comment to my edit requesting this. Thank you. Alias Flood 20:42, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I have now updated the table in full to include 2005-2006. Alias Flood 21:33, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the Fulham total points (and position in table) is wrong - fchd 05:18, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I have corrected the table accordingly (from 166 points to 236) -- Alias Flood 17:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Just wanted to point out that the reason for Fulham's points being inconsistent is because they were updated by anonymous one day, and not reverted - presumably after Fulham had won or something. Mark272 19:03, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RSS

Is there an RSS feed showing the premiership tbale i.e. 20 items per week in premiership table order? If so, could this be added as an external link so readers can get the latest table?

[edit] FA Premier League Winners to date

We seem to have an orphaned asterisk {*) against Total wins* in the table's heading. Can anyone shed any light on this please? See FA_Premier_League#FA_Premier_League_Winners_to_date. Alias Flood 17:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

This has now been corrected by another editor. See [1]. Problem solved. Alias Flood 18:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of managers

The list of managers is fairly irrelevant IMO, would anyone object if it was removed? Oldelpaso 13:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't. You can easily get the info from the individual team pages anyway. - Pal 13:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've removed it. On a similar note, perhaps the lists of current and former Premier League clubs should be moved to List of FA Premier League clubs or somesuch. Oldelpaso 19:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I would say yes to moving (or maybe even eliminating) the former clubs list given the other page you mentioned. However, I'd say keep the currents clubs list. I know lists aren't ideal in FACs, but IMO this info is crucial to the article and should be included. - Pal 03:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

The Major League Soccer page has a box that displays the year the league was founded, the number of teams, and the last cup winner. Should this page have similiar infobox? I rather like the info box, but maybe the information provided there would need to be changed to fit with the Premiership. Thoughts? Rballou 17:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I simply removed the info box (which contained no info) part of it for now, leaving just the logo. This seems to be the standard for most leagues around here. I think you want either a clean look with like this, or useful info there. --Cthomer5000 03:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Worldwide" section

I removed the last two paragraphs from the worldwide section as I searched and couldn't find any sources for the info. The only references to "football ferries" seem to come from replications of this article, and the comment about Irish supporters preferring the EPL certainly seems POV without a source.

The part about the Old Firm clubs would also need sources. I found an article about the Old Firm clubs making overtures to join the EPL in 2001, but FIFA and UEFA rejected this. I'm not sure how it's relevant to the article right now, unless someone can locate a more recent source. - Pal 13:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Newspaper coverage

One of the FAC objections rightly points out that newspaper coverage of the Premier League is not mentioned in the Media coverage section. I sat down to add a couple of paragraphs, but I'm having trouble avoiding weasel words and finding references. Football dominates newspaper sports coverage in England, and Premier League matches, teams and players get the majority of it. That is evident to anyone who picks up an English newspaper. But finding a source which says this is difficult, as most relevant search terms take you straight to sports coverage itself. Anyone have any ideas? Oldelpaso 19:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Not that this helps Oldelpaso, but on a somewhat related note I'm having difficulty finding anything worthwhile to complement the "Worldwide" section. This probably has something to do with a lot of the foreign press coverage being written in languages that wouldn't pop up on a search done in English. I'd be open to suggestions as well. - Pal 21:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll see what I can find tomorrow. Oldelpaso 21:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should it stay or should it go?

In comments on this article's FAC page, some have suggested moving the "All-Time Table" into its own article and simply linking to it. I'm leaning towards this as it might not be of great importance to the main article, but I wanted to see if anyone had any objections first. - Pal 21:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

No objections from me. Oldelpaso 21:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Attendances

The sentence This represents an increase of over 60 per cent from the average attendance of 21,126 recorded in the league's first season (1992-93). is possibly misleading; in 1992-93 a large number of grounds had restricted capacities, as they were being redeveloped to comply with the requirements set out in the Taylor Report. Oldelpaso 19:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I added a sentence that mentions this fact, though it doesn't specifically cite which stadiums were under construction. I'm not sure that could be done without linking to the history of every PL stadium from 92-93, which could be rather tedious. - Pal 01:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Foreign players

What about creating a List of foreign FA Premier League players like the List of foreign MLS players? In England foreign players are gaining more attention day-by-day, so it would be useful to group'em in a list. Too hard? P.S.: unfortunately I haven't enough infos to create it, but I would collaborate. --necronudist 16:38, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical Influences of Relgion

I think something should be said about the catholic/protestant in the foundations of the league. Like Celtic and Rangers, English clubs have allegiances to christian denominations, which have been all but forgotten. Many clubs in the league have take a side each, indeed, it was the reason for their founding. For example, Liverpool/Everton, Manchester United/Manchester City are teams who bear this mark. Perhaps someone could clarify the same with other teams such as Birmingham/Aston Villa, Sheffield United/Wednesday and some of the london teams. Tottenham, of course, has jewish roots. I think this is a fascinating and fundemental aspect of British football that should be mentioned in detail. Bobbyfletch85 00:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I dare say in certain parts of Glasgow or Belfast more or less every club has a percieved religous affiliation, but in most cases the evidence for this is highly questionable to say the least, and has no relevance to the FA Premier League as a competition anyway. Oldelpaso 10:42, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see the importance of any historical religous affiliations to the vast majority of English clubs. Religion may have been more central to the general game of football in the distant past (i.e. over a century ago) but in the past few decades none of the English clubs you mention display any major "allegiances to christian denominations". To say it is a "fundemental aspect of British football" is a massive exageration unless one looks back a long, long time; about a century before the formation of the Premier League (which remeber is what this article is about). Canderra 00:08, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, that sort of information seems more appropriate to the clubs' respective articles. howcheng {chat} 00:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My revert

I reverted an addition about the "official supplier of numbers, letters and sleeve badges". I generally try not to use the term "cruft", but in this case I can't think of another way to describe it. Oldelpaso 18:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Establishment section seems odd

Why did FIFA pressure the FA to limit its size? This is not explained as far as I can see. Anchoress 02:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the fix, it's much clearer. Anchoress 06:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Domination

"It is presently contested by 20 clubs, dominated by Arsenal, Manchester United and current champions Chelsea." Little bit harsh to exclude Liverpool. They have never actually won it, but they have come second twice, and are 3rd in the All-time FA Premier League table. They were the Bookies' second favourites this year, ahead of Arsenal and Man Utd. Legis 10:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

And Chelsea have only dominated in the last couple of years. I'll dig through the history to find a better sentence. Oldelpaso 17:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HDTV

The article lack HDTV broadcasting information.

[edit] Total games in a season?

This article claims that there are 'a total of 760 games in a Premier League season.' I may be wrong, but I'm fairly sure it's 380; 20 teams x 19 home games (you don't need to count away matches because they will still be someone's home matches) gives 380. Can anyone else confirm this? Happyjoe5 16:29, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Makes sense to me so I changed it! Bit of a sloppy error for a featured article. Well spotted Happyjoe :) --Hopex 16:44, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

380 is correct. The edit introducing the error occurred at some point today, during the article's time on the main page. Oldelpaso 16:58, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

It keeps getting changed to 760. I'm sure I've reverted it back to 380 on at least a couple of occasions. - fchd 06:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Happyjoe5 19:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bolton v Fulham picture

Not to be nitpicky, but this picture is actually of an FA Cup match, not a Premier League match. See [2] for pictures from WireImages. howcheng {chat} 16:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Premier League vs FA Cup

As a new fan of the EPL, I was wondering which is considered a more prestigious honor for a team: to win the Premier League or to win the FA Cup? Nygoodliving 15:48, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Winning the league. This has not always been the case, at one time the league title and FA Cup were viewed more or less equal, and in the early days of professional football the FA Cup was viewed as the most prestigous, as it is the older competition. Part of the allure of the cup came from the fact that until the 1980s the FA Cup final was the only club match which was televised live on English TV. Since live televised games have become more commonplace, the profile of the cup has diminished relative to the league. However, the cup is still valued very highly, more so than in other European countries where the national cup is very much a secondary competition. (Note: This answer refers to the league title in general rather than the Premier League specifically, as the Premier League only formed in 1992) Oldelpaso 18:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. I mentioned the EPL but was referring to the league title in general. As the FA Cup is a knock-out competition, I would have thought it would always have been more prestigious than the league title. Same for most other European leagues. I would have thought winning their cup competitions would be more highly regarded than winning the league. Oh well, live and learn. But I guess that's the american mentality in me, where a league title would be equivalent to a baseball regular season and the cup would be the playoffs and World Series.

So I understand it then, to English teams right now, the rank of trophies is the European Cup at the pinnacle, followed by the league and FA Cup. Correct? Also, where would the League Cup (Carling Cup) fall into that order, last?Nygoodliving 17:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The League Cup is certainly lower than the FA Cup by anyone's standards. Also, if you are including European Cup (Champions League) in there, you should include the Club World Cup too, though I'm not exactly sure whether or not that is considered more important than the Champions League by the general public, as some people may not even be aware there is a Club World Cup. Perhaps you should also include the UEFA Cup. - MTC 21:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

By my reckoning, the order of prestige would be: Champions' League > Premiership > FA Cup > UEFA Cup > League Cup > Club World Cup. The FA and UEFA may be interchangeable, but that's how I see it. -- Boothman _/tɔːk/ 22:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC).

Oh if the big 4 [now that Arse is last big 3] would care about the FA Cup, then it would be biggest. Chivista 23:30, 2 December 2006 (UTC)