Talk:F-4 Phantom II

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Contents

[edit] Name

The article states that it was known as "simply "F-4 Phantom" after 1990." Is this an official name change, or does it state an arbitrary date where the popular name changed?

Nobody today remembers the FH Phantom, so the "II" is probably unnecessary - Mmartins

Nonetheless, there was never an official name change AFAIK. Emt147 21:44, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Nope, no official name change. The original McDonnell Phantom was a Navy aircraft produced by the same company, so making the distinction is still valid. Guapovia 12:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Some nicknames used in the German Luftwaffe are "Eisensau" (iron sow), "Fliegender Ziegelstein" (flying brick) and "Luftverteidigungsdiesel" (air defence diesel), all referring to both its durability and (lack of) maneuverability. They are slowly being phased out of service as of 2005 to be gradually replaced with the Eurofighter Typhoon.

[edit] Rewrite

IMHO this article needs expanding and formatting help. Unless someone has major objections or other ideas, I'll do it this weekend. First goal is reformat to fit WP:Air guidelines at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Aircraft/page_content, then it will be easier to expand without having to rewrite entire paragraphs.

And "double ugly" is not a B-52 reference. It describes either the dihedral wings with anhedral tail or the crew. Or both. :) - Emt147 Burninate! 05:24, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

There, 'tis done. The article still needs expansion, particularly the details of Vietnam and Gulf War activities. - Emt147 Burninate! 09:40, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Nice work, Emt! I like it! Keep it up! Guapovia 08:04, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Split up/expansion?

Two issues:

  1. The article is getting huge. Should we split off the variants into a separate article?
  2. The Phantom is very well documented so the info can keep on coming forever. I don't think this article needs to be the definitive Phantom reference but more operational history and cool tidbits would be nice. - Emt147 Burninate! 08:10, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Per lack of responses to the above, I have split the Phantom variants into a separate article, F-4 Phantom II variants, to make the main page more manageable. - Emt147 Burninate! 03:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Editting Conflict

I attempted to change a link category heading from "Comparable Aircraft" to "Contemporary Aircraft" because the aircraft cited were single-engine single-seaters and the F-4 was neither. In doing so I was unaware someone else was editting at the same moment and my changes deleted the section. I'm not certain how to restore, but the links were to the F-8 Crusader and the Mig-19 and Mig-21. My apologies. Buckboard 12:48, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Two things:
  1. Your edits broke the template output. The "similar aircraft" line is a parameter fed into the template. When you changed its name, you made a new parameter the template did not recognize and thus that whole section got lost. The output is coded into the template.
  2. These are comparable aicraft because they were Phantom contemporaries with similar roles (air superiority) and performance (and besides, MiG-19 had two engines). That's the the whole idea of the "comparable aircraft" sub-section. Phantom contemporaries include such sky burners as the Cessna O-2 -- does that belong in the list then? - Emt147 Burninate! 16:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually IMHO there are short-comings to either term (and Comparable Contemporaries is a bit cumbersome, eh?). Fighter purists would argue the comparability point, esp. the idea that the Phantom was an air superiority fighter (local over the fleet, maybe, but otherwise, much more the fighter-bomber). Was unaware that the Mig-19 had two engines--I'm sure they caught hell from Mig-21 drivers over it, the way P-38 and all other twin-engine a/c caught it from the single-engine community. I reported this to restore the previous section. Buckboard 19:58, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Just read the project page guidelines and understand "comparable" as used here. Buckboard 20:01, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Comparable aircraft: are those of similar role, era, and capability to this one. This will always be somewhat subjective, of course, but try to keep this as tight as possible. Again, some aircraft will be one-of-a-kind and this line will be inappropriate.
MiG-19, MiG-21 and F-8 are of similar role, era, and capability as the Phantom (sort of, Phantom's radar was above and beyond anything else available at the time). What's your point? Regardlness, the line "Comparable aircraft" is written into the template (per the page content guidelines) so changing the template parameter in the F-4 document will only break the template output. - Emt147 Burninate! 23:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Service ceiling?

The service ceiling is listed as 60,000 feet. "Service ceiling" is defined as the altitude at which an aircraft can sustain no more than a 50 FPM climb. Earlier in the article, it is noted that the Phantom held a sustained altitude record of over 66,000 feet, and set a time-to-30,000-meters record. During the record climb, it gained its last 5,000 meters of altitude (about 15,000 feet) in about 2.5 minutes, which by my figuring is a ROC of about 6,000 FPM, well over the 50 FPM required for a service ceiling.

I realise the altitude records involved some zoom-climbing (don't know how much), but I think the 60,000-foot service ceiling number is at *minimum* 6,000 feet or so on the low side. Is there any more data out there to further define the true service ceiling of the Phantom? Where did the 60,000-foot number come from in the first place?--chris.lawson 06:08, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Per definition of service ceiling, it is 100 fpm at max continuous power, which I presume means non-afterburning power. My reference is listed in the specs (Green's "Great Book of Fighters"). I have seen 70,000 (extremely dubious) and 62,250 (Joe Baugher) as well. If you have a quality source, you are welcome to update the specs so long as you cite your references. A maximum sustained altitude is not the same as a service ceiling. Climb rate is extremely non-linear and may well utilize some zoom climbing. - Emt147 Burninate! 00:58, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Erm, you're right about the 100 FPM. Woops. :) I hadn't considered afterburning as a factor there, which probably accounts for the difference. I know max sustained altitude and service ceiling aren't the same thing, but the fact that there were so *many* altitudes so far above the quoted service ceiling is what caught my attention.--chris.lawson 04:40, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
All the 100,000 ft altitudes are zoom climbs with the engines off. The general technique is described in the text under Project High Jump. The advantage of the SR-71 was that it could cruise at the superhigh altitudes -- Soviets and Americans had to employ zoom climb tactics to try and intercept it. - Emt147 Burninate! 05:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bent Tail of the F-4...

One subject that has not been covered is the purpose behind the downward-bent horiziontal tail section. Hopefully the explanation will be included soon by a knowlegeable enthusiast.

To quote the article, The all-moving tailplane was given 23° of anhedral to improve control at high angles of attack and clear the engine exhaust. - Emt147 Burninate! 03:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of the F-4 by Israel

The article states that the F-4's use by Israel was discontinued in May 12, 2006. However, it is known that the Kurnas 2000 (introduced 1989), which uses an F-4 airframe, is currently in use [1]. This information should be included, as it doesn't seem quite as usage of the F-4 has been completely discontinued. - MSTCrow 10:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RF-4E and RF-4EJ

The point of recognizing RF-4E and RF-4EJ simply is the existence of the M61 (under a nose). See this picture. Left and center are RF-4E and right is RF-4EJ.

--add signature--Open-box 11:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I was wrong. --BillCJ 16:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Operation Bolo

Operation Bolo. If you guys want to read an article about a great F-4 victory over Vietnam take a look at Operation Bolo Tu-49 16:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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