User talk:Exucmember

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[edit] G'day!

G'day there, Exucmember, and welcome to Wikipedia! Good authors are always welcome on the project, and I hope you like the place and decide to stick around!

We've got a few pages you might find helpful, such as:

It's all best summed up here: write from a neutral point of view, play nice with others, and don't let the rules get you down.

If you have any questions or need any help, my talkpage is always open for business, or you can see Wikipedia:Newcomers help page. Here's a tip to start you off: if you type four tildes (~~~~) at the end of any messages you leave on talkpages (like this one) Wikipedia will automatically insert your name and the current date and time after your message. Cool, eh? Happy editing! fuddlemark (fuddle me!) 14:07, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyright problem with Image:UTS pic.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:UTS pic.jpg. However, the image may soon be deleted unless we can determine the copyright holder and copyright status. The Wikimedia Foundation is very careful about the images included in Wikipedia because of copyright law (see Wikipedia's Copyright policy).

The copyright holder is usually the creator, the creator's employer, or the last person who was transferred ownership rights. Copyright information on images is signified using copyright templates. The three basic license types on Wikipedia are open content, public domain, and fair use. Find the appropriate template in Wikipedia:Image copyright tags and place it on the image page like this: {{TemplateName}}.

Please signify the copyright information on any other images you have uploaded or will upload. Remember that images without this important information can be deleted by an administrator. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me, or ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. the iBook of the Revolution 03:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC) PS: If you cut and paste the wording that says the pic can be reused onto my talk page, I can figure it out from there for you.

[edit] Unification Church (User:Marknw's thesis on Politics in Divine Principle)

Hello Exucmember, I would like to change some of the edits you made. It is wikipedia policy to colaborate on major changes to an article. You made some statements that seem heavily from you own POV. It is polite to ask before moving a whole section. I would like to change back some of the edits you made to the politics section I was working on. I would also like to colaborate with you if you have an interest in this subject. With Regards Marknw 05:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I have delayed responding, as I found your comments and actions offensive, but have no desire to be in conflict with you or to express any emotion in my response. You say it is Wikipedia policy to "colaborate" on major changes to an article, but all I did was create a new page for the large section you wrote, which conforms in an exemplary manner to Wikipedia guidelines, as the page was getting too long (more than 32k), and that section was the most peripheral in my judgement (and, I would guess, in the judgement of most readers). Many people are honored to have a new page created from their material, and some editors boast about new pages they've created, even when they are not very substantial. Wikipedia guidelines repeatedly urge editors to be bold in editing. I am happy to collaborate, and I took the appropriate first step in doing so. Perhaps you thought I should ask your permission first before editing anything you wrote. You said you would like to collaborate with me, yet your actions - deleting everything I wrote - do not seem to conform to that claim.
You claim that what I wrote in the article (a small summary of your material) "seem[s] heavily from you own POV." I do not think so, I don't think most editors would think so, and I think it's odd that you would say so; I did not contradict your assertions or edit your content. Ironically, I think most readers might well characterize your section as POV. It certainly is out of place at present, discussing political implications in Divine Principle on the Unification Church page (section 5) before the book is even discussed (section 6.1). This doesn't really belong on the Unification Church page at all; it should be discussed very briefly on the Divine Principle page, with a link to the substantial essay that you wrote.
Your presenting a thesis and defending it with quotations from the book is prototypical of "original research" in the humanities, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. You should be careful how you present it. -Exucmember 20:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unification Church clarification

Hello Exucmember, I just wanted to make a clarification on my edits on the Manhattan Center page. The goal of my contributions to this page is to ensure the factual accuracy of the details on the history of the building. Also, I'm aiming to keep the history section consistent with the history on Manhattan Center's official website. The entries on the official website are neutral, factual, and they should fit well within Wikipedia's standards. The website lists that the building was purchased by the Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity (the Unification Church). It doesn't say that it was purchased by Sun Myung Moon's Unification church. This phrasing is redundant; similarly, you would not refer to the Church of Scientology as L. Ron Hubbard's Church of Scientology. If you were a Roman Catholic, you would not refer to your church as the Pope's Roman Catholic Church. The leaders (or some cases, originators) of the chuch are assumed. It's not that you wish to hide the information about the leader of the church, you only want to ensure the accuracy of the church's name when it is mentioned. For these reasons, all I ask is that the reference on Manhattan Center's Wikipedia page match the information on the website. Thanks. 69.38.167.178 17:27, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

The Roman Catholic Church is better known than the Unification Church, and its history is less dominated by one man or even by all the popes collectively. My thought was that the name "Rev. Sun Myung Moon" in conjunction with that of the Unification Church was more well-known than simply the Unification Church by itself; however, I have solved this difference of opinion.
Your statement: "all I ask is that the reference on Manhattan Center's Wikipedia page match the information on the [Manhattan Center's] website" is ridiculous. Suppose we were to agree on an institution that had something it prefered not to reveal because of its being controversial, say, an affiliation with the Ku Klux Klan. If its official web site neglected to say anything about this important affiliation, is that a sound reason for an appeal that it not be mentioned in an encyclopedia article? The raising of controversial issues and allowance for criticism is a hallmark of Wikipedia. -Exucmember 21:37, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Have you even bothered to visit the official website? Obviously not, because every bit of factual information about the history of the building already exists with details about ALL previous owners including the Unification Church. Your edits continue to state that Manhattan Center wishes to hide pieces of information. This couldn't be further from the truth. There's not a company in New York City who is more proud of their heritage than Manhattan Center. The historical information on the website is neutral. I understand your point about the Catholic Church, and you're correct - they are very well known. I guess the Scientology example was better, but either way, thanks for your contribution. My only other comment is to be wary of your entries. As an excommunicated member, I question the neutrality that you may be able to bring your entries. 69.38.167.178 16:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm happy to hear that you are proud of your ownership by the Unification Church and your affiliation with Sun Myuung Moon. It is not as much the affiliation but the occasional attempt to hide or obfuscate the fact by some members that bothers people. Using the long corporate name in the Wikipedia article instead of the common name that Wikipedia uses ("Unification Church" only in hidden Wikification) seemed suspicious, and you can certainly understand why I thought Manhattan Center people were trying to hide the affiliation when one of your editors deleted all reference to the Unification Church, including the long corporate name that was there originally. (Check the history and you'll see this is what happened, but perhaps it was simply a mistake made by one of the editors from Manhattan Center.)
Of course I read the entire history on the official website before I made any edits on the Manhattan Center page on Wikipedia. My memory is that it did NOT mention the Unification Church, only the long corporate name, "The Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity," but I see now that "Unification Church" is there in parentheses (unlike the Wikipedia page before I edited it, where it was not visible in the text), so I either misremembered or you changed it. Either way, I'm happy you're proud of your ownership, as I said. I don't understand your referring to me as an "excommunicated" member; I'll just assume it was a weak attempt at humor.
Unificationists are fine with the fact that I defend them against religious bigotry (on at least a half-dozen pages so far), expose the less-than-honest methods of the secular anti-cultists (dubbed Anti-Cult Movement by NRM researchers) on pages like Love bombing and Cults, or write positive things about New Hope Academy (virtually the whole article), UTS, etc., or make helpful contributions to pages like Unification Church (complimented by member Steve Dufour). On the other hand, if I reveal important but unpleasant facts that a healthy Unificationism should deal with rather than sweeping under the rug (see, for example, the review by a Unification Church member of Nansook Hong's book), I am suddenly judged to be incapable of being neutral. -Exucmember 18:08, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Chiming in a bit late, but I'm perfectly happy to see "important but unpleasant facts" mentioned. Just be sure to distinguish "fact" from "claim" when it's a matter of dispute. For example, it's a fact that Rev. Moon had children with at least one woman other than Hak Ja Han, his wife of 46 years. But many "hidden facts" are actually unconfirmed rumors or 'disputed' assertions. Let's work together on these, shall we? --Uncle Ed 19:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello Exucmember, I was just hoping that you could clarify something for me. Here is a direct link to the section: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sun_Myung_Moon#How_Many_Wives.3F I am just really trying to understand the secret things about the Unification Church and Sun Myung Moon. So if you could clarify for me, I would really appreciate it! Jamesters 09:42, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New article

I hope you don't take the fact that I put your article up for deletion too personally. Notability of living people is a very difficult issue, and reasonable people frequently can and do disagree. You can comment on the AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tim Folzenlogen. I've stricken the vanity bit. Cheers, Mak (talk) 06:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Thanks for correcting the number of couples in the Mike Jenkins article. I wonder why the other person changed it, kind of strange. Keep up the good work here. Steve Dufour 18:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:UTS aerial.jpg listed for deletion

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[edit] Image tagging for Image:Andrew_Wilson.jpg

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[edit] UC articles

Hi, thanks again for your help. It's refreshing to able to work with a writer who has opposing viewpoints but who also wants to produce neutral articles.

Could you please take a look at a few other UC articles I've revamped today?

Thanks! --Uncle Ed 19:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I finally got around to looking at these pages systematically. Some I've already addressed, but for those I haven't, a few tweaks seem in order. Nice to see Returning Resurrection - I know you wanted to put that one up for some time. I feel it's quite inadequate as it stands, however, not really conveying the basic idea of the concept to those not familiar with it already. I don't think I'm the right person to do all the writing that needs to be done about Unification beliefs though. -Exucmember 23:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Right-hand man

I think our tussle over the application of this term to Bo Hi Pak stems from lack of clarity over what a right hand man is. I have always seen Pak as more of an "aide" than a "leader".

In the army an aide is a secretary or factotum. He hangs around the commanding general and may even be an officer. A chief of staff or deputy commander is a leader. He can make decisions affecting thousands of troops.

Pak established publicity organizations like Little Angels and did some diplomatic work in Latin America (CAUSA). He did not provide spiritual leadership to members; no leaders reported to him. He was a translator, to be sure, some say the best Rev. Moon ever had. But it was Rev. Kwak who told lower-level leaders what to do; wrote an influential book on The Tradition of the church (how to conduct pledge service, when to seek or avoid an abortion, etc.)

There's no point trying to settle the "who was his right hand man" issue until I've written the Chung Hwan Kwak article. When we see the two bio article side by side (Pak and Kwak), it will be clear who was more of a key man in the church leadership hierarchy.

By the way, I really appreciate your close attention to the articles and frequent roll-backs of vandalism. Have you thought of becoming an admin? --Uncle Ed 20:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate the sentiment and words of support. Well, for one thing, I'm too new - I'm like a kid who has learned enough phrases to sound like an adult without really understanding the full meaning - I just have a vague sense of Wikipedia policies, having only read what I need to know to edit. Also, I'm not sure how an editor with my username would be received, either at an evaluation to become an admin or afterward (at least in relation to those who care about the Unification Church). But I do try to be fair. Some people (not you) seem to want their way (including even suggestions or implications that are misleading) if they can (sometimes barely) justify it within the rules; I think accuracy is the best goal. -Exucmember 23:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Channeling

Hi. I answered you about "approval" vs. "allowing", here. --Uncle Ed 19:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I've answered there (Talk:Black Heung Jin Nim) -Exucmember 00:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
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