Talk:Examination of Holocaust denial

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Examination of Holocaust denial article.
This article is a frequent source of heated debate. Please try to keep a cool head when commenting here.

Contents

[edit] Archives

Talk:Examination of Holocaust denial/Archive 1

[edit] Why did someone delete my message?

So basically I posted a refutation by showing a false quote on here that was made up ("Today I want to be a prophet once more: If international Jewish financiers inside and outside Europe again succeed in plunging the nations into a world war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth and with it the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe."). This page is a joke! You show a picture of a Soviet officer pouring down gas and expect us to think that's proof? Ha! 22:10, 21 February 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by McDonaldsGuy (talk • contribs).

First, your previous post was not deleted, it was moved to the bottom, where new posts are placed. Second, Squiddy, below, gave you a number of sources for the quote, which is actually quite famous: Ian Kershaw, Hitler 1936-45, Nemesis, (2000) p 153. Also (partially) quoted in Martin Gilbert, The Holocaust, 1990, p 76 (his source given as Norman H. Baynes (Ed.) The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922 - August 1939, London, 1942. p 741. Third, the Soviet soldier pictured is holding the lid to the gas vents at Majdanek, after it was captured by the Russians, he is not "pouring down anything." Fourth, I believe you wrote in your last comment "There is no evidence he said this. If there is, show me it and I will take back my statements." So, please, take back your statements now that Squiddy has given you all of these sources. Also, you should sign your comments. --Goodoldpolonius2 22:30, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
My mistake, I feel stupid now, I'm just used at keeping my posts on the top. But as I was saying he never said this, when it was claimed he said it, they never cited it in Nuremberg. So not only was it not sustained, it was not even cited. It's not serious evidence. On January 30, 1939 the concentration of the Jews in camps had not yet begun. Until I see serious evidence he said this I won't believe it. Not some book that was written 50/60 years after he supposedly said it. I mean like a video of him saying it. But I will check out the 1942 book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0598758933/sr=8-1/qid=1140562787/ref=sr_1_1/104-9563748-6671113?%5Fencoding=UTF8
And about the Soviet officer - I know he is not pouring down anything. I know it was just a demonstration. But it's not serious evidence of gassing.-- 22:58, 21 February 2006 McDonaldsGuy
For all it's worth, throughout my school years, I have heard this quote in the German original so many times, I can almost quote it by heart. Heck, I think every Germany can do the whole Hitler routine by heart. The quote is as real as anything. (except, of course, if all those tapes were made in the Zionist Conspiracy Headquarter Basement Cutting room. Who knows...) Dietwald 19:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
McDonaldsguy, not all testimony was at Nuremberg, Hitler wasn't on trial, and his speeches wouldn't have been relevant to the trial, especially compared with the mountains of testimony and documents actually presented. Indeed, I am baffled by your questions as to whether the quote exists, honestly, especially as you don't even need to buy the 1942 book, the full speech is here[1], or you can do a Google book search on the phrase and you find many books including the information. It is likely that the speech was recorded as well, it was in front of the Reichstag on January 30, 1939, and I don't think that even hard-core Holocaust deniers argue that the speech doesn't exist. As for the picture, it illustrates how Zyklon B was introduced into gas chambers, just one piece of information among many, so I am not sure why you would focus on it. --Goodoldpolonius2 23:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

i'm sorry but this page IS REALLY A JOKE. it's about how to show that holocaust NEVER HAPPENED and more than the half it's about how holocaust HAPPENED. well this must already be in the HOLOCAUST ARTICLE. it was written by some zionist or what? always taking someone's side, that's how wikipedia works. you just have to ready "five chimneys" where Olga Lengyel says that 24.000 were destroyed everyday at auschwitz (were she claims it's true because she was there and she saw it). alright. from march of 1942 until october of 1944 auschwitz destroyed more than 21 million people. six million more than THE JEWISH WORLD COMMUNITY. 02:15, 24 March 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.203.56.178 (talk • contribs).

Ah, revisionism at it's best. First, the article is about the falacy that is Holocaust Denial, not a support piece for it. Second, articles aren't written by "some zionist", but by a consensus, which in the case of these kind of topics, is often hard to come by. Lastly, it's amazing that since one account (by a survivor) might be flawed, that should be enough to cast doubt on the entire veracity of the Holocaust. 06:29, 7 Apr 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).
If that is the case then call it "The Fallacy of Holocaust Denial" instead. 16 November 2006 User:Wazzaly

[edit] Hitler never said this

"Today I want to be a prophet once more: If international Jewish financiers inside and outside Europe again succeed in plunging the nations into a world war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth and with it the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe."

There is no evidence he said this. If there is, show me it and I will take back my statements.

This is a part of an infamous speech given on 30 Jan 1939. Sources: Ian Kershaw, Hitler 1936-45, Nemesis, (2000) p 153. Also (partially) quoted in Martin Gilbert, The Holocaust, 1990, p 76 (his source given as Norman H. Baynes (Ed.) The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922 - August 1939, London, 1942. p 741). --Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 10:56, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone ever been able to find a full complete English translation of this speech? I can't find the full transcript anywhere, only parts of it taken out of context. I've also noticed the translation slightly differs from different sources citing that quote.--Nazrac 19:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


Of course the translations differ. They are translations. The speech is more fun in German in any case. High German must be one of the best languages to say those things. Can't imagine him saying this kind of non-sense in Platt...;) Dietwald 19:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Translations are never perfect, but what I meant was there seem to be some very different excerpts of that speech floating around, and since I can't find a complete transcript of the entire speech either in German or for that matter any other language it seems highly dubious to me to be taking those words out of context.--Nazrac 17:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the problem is. Are you saying the translated portions are wrong? Or are you saying that in context the quote wouldn't be as ominious sounding? 02:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not really making an assertion there, however I don't really think it is good scholastic work to formulate opinions or theories based on a few bits and pieces of a speech taken out of context. That sort of cherry picking all too often creeps into articles on here, especially politically related articles.

--Nazrac 21:35, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, presumably the people who are quoting the words, originally, have done an in-depth study. Really, there is little debate that Hitler was a rabid anti-semite, and quotations about Jews are all over the place. Usually, "cherry picking" is when you review something (article, speech) to support your position when the gist of the work, in context, speaks against you. While this sort of thing goes on in revisionism/denial quite often (Irving is an example of this), I don't think that is what is happening here. However, if you can produce a credible analysis that has a different take on this speech/quote, I'm sure we'd be interested to review it. 06:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] But Hitler did sign this

But Hitler did sign a statement, his last written statement ever, his "Political Testament," saying, in relevant part, this (as translated into English):

"I have also made it quite plain that, if the nations of Europe are again to be regarded as mere shares to be bought and sold by these international conspirators in money and finance, then that race, Jewry, which is the real criminal of this murderous struggle, will be saddled with the responsibility. I further left no one in doubt that this time not only would millions of children of Europe's Aryan peoples die of hunger, not only would millions of grown men suffer death, and not only hundreds of thousands of women and children be burnt and bombed to death in the towns, without the real criminal having to atone for this guilt, even if by more humane means."

Although awkwardly phrased (in English anyway), the phrase "without the real criminal having to atone for this guilt, even if by more humane means" suggests that "the real criminal" ("Jewry") had actually had to atone for this guilt -- the reference to more humane means would seemingly be a reference to it being better to die in a gas-chamber than of hunger, or by being burnt or bombed to death. That is, he seems to be saying in effect: "Well, OK, I lost and unfortunately a lot of Aryan people starved, were burnt, were bombed, or otherwise were killed, but, as I promised, at least the Jews got theirs -- we Nazis saw to that -- although they got it relatively nicely (by gassing)."

Anyway, it's my understanding that lead Nazi anti-Semite Julius Streicher (editor-in-chief of Der Sturmer) took Hitler's Political Testament to be a statement that Hitler knew of the Holocaust. Streicher denied knowledge at the Nuremburg trials of the Holocaust himself, but took Hitler's Political Testament to be an admission of knowledge of it on Hitler's part.


Pretty vague - the testament( or the excerpt) that is - to get so much history out of. Do you have a more concise statement - this code word stuff really doesn't measure up. 20:21, 15 November 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.92 (talk • contribs).

[edit] No refutation non-existence gas chambers

Hey, I was wondering, were is the refutation of the Examination_of_Holocaust_denial#Evidence_that_gas_chambers_were_used_for_killing non-existence of the gas chambers? --Vincent 15:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC) And by the way, how can the Zyklon B be thrown into the gas chambers through the windows? Windows wouldn't be really great in a gas chamber. I hope this can be clarified because even though the Holocaust deniers don't stick to the facts, we should. --Vincent 15:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your asking here. Are you asking for proof of the gas chambers in your first comment? As for your second comment, there were no windows for the gas chambers. I think you are referring to one of the pictures, which shows the crematorium in the background with windows; in these pictures, the chambers are actually underground, and it is pointed out that the induction columns, where the gas would have been put in, are visible (the tops) 07:04 UTC 18 March 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).
Well, the article notes a few arguments of the Holocaust deniers and tells why theyr aren't true. However, at the noted section, it skips to a whole other subject than the gas chambers.
As for my second point, I quote the article:
(In some of the gas chambers the Zyklon B was poured in through the roof, while in others it was thrown in through the windows.).
--Vincent 13:07, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I think I understand what you are saying in the first comment now; but I think the article is trying to take on the "evidence" that is used to prove that the gas chambers didn't exist -- namely the various reports that deniers advance to show that various aspects of the killing process were impossible or that evidence that they expect to be there is absent. Now, for your second comment, the referenced comment is a quote from another source. I think it's referring to whether the poison was introduced from above ("the roof") or the side ("the windows") of the different chambers used. 20 03:34 20 March 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).
OK, good enough for me ;) --Vincent 12:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
One of the arguments put forward by deniers and revisionists is that the aerial surveillance photos taken by American pilots show that the 'holes in the roof' of the Auschwitz gas chamber did not exist during the time the gas chambers were supposed to be opperating. It has also been confirmed by many that the Soviets rebuilt the gas chamber after the Germans had allegedly blown it up before fleeing from the advancing red army. Does this seem odd to anyone else?
--Nazrac 19:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Not to me. The Soviets, and the Germans too, loved propoganda. I would say the Soviets "restored", rather then rebuilt one of the gas chambers the Nazis used. I do believe that guides tell visitors it's a restoral, and not the original state the Soviets found the room in. (It was used as an air raid shelter by the Germans prior to Soviet arrival, and had been modified). The chambers that had still been in use prior to the Soviet capture certainly were blown up, and they remain collapsed in fragments to this day.
Is this surveillance evidence very strong? There was some recon photos posted some time ago, with a $100,000 reward to establish credibility, that claimed all sorts of stuff about Auschwitz. It seems the poster wasn't so sure of his claims, since no one was able to contact him to establish the rules for collecting the prize. This wouldn't be those same photos, would it? 05:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).

According to the documentary by David Cole, the tour guide claimed it was original. However the director of the tour facility contradicted her and claimed the Soviets rebuilt it and that the holes in the roof were not original which seems interesting because they also dont appear in aerial servailance photos. I found these arguments intruiging in that no one seems to be able to definatively explain this anonaly. Incase you're interested in reading the articles, I found the information here:

http://www.vho.org/tr/2000/4/gcairphoto.html http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gcairphoto.html http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/trial/RadDi280100.html http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v12/v12p421_Weber.html http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=4303

Also David Cole's Auschwitz video can be found here: David Cole Interviews Dr. Fanciszek Piper part 1 http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=712790597880479314&q=david+cole Part 2 http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-2827691277822616716&q=david+cole

David Cole the truth behind Auschwitz part 1 http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=277520188822606933&q=david+cole part 2 http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7607543071101199504&q=david+cole

I found David Cole's take on revisionism particularly interesting, consider he is an Atheist jew. He was subsequently threatened by a jewish group called "the jewish defense league" which has been labeled by the FBI and the ADL as a terrorist extremist group. --Nazrac 19:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't quite tell what an "atheist Jew" is. I always thought Atheists didn't believe in any religion. This David Cole info is old, and has been addressed before. The tour guide made a mistake; tour guides aren't historians, but Dr. Piper is. Curious that you didn't mention this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franciszek_Piper
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/p/piper.franciszek/press/daily.texan.1093
Which fully documents Piper's response to Cole. Also not reported (or mentioned) is that Cole has recanted his take on revisionism entirely, and broken with the scene. Why isn't this point ever mentioned? (or if it is, there is some twist as to why Cole no longer holds these beliefs)
Your second link refers to the discredited photos I refered to above, examined in detail by "Air photo expert" John Ball.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/john-ball/
http://www.nizkor.org/features/ball-challenge/
If Mr. Ball's faith in his photo analysis is so genuine, why didn't he let anyone take his $100,000 challenge? Stange indeed, for those seeking the truth to shy away from such a challenge.
Finally, of course, there is the holes that you keep talking about. I have to say, I'm quite disappointed in this, for while it seems you've kept a very open mind while listening to deniers/revisionists, you've done very little _real_ research on the topic. If you had done much research, then you should be able to easily discover that Auschwitz is not just one camp, but a series of camps. Further, you would know that "the Soviet remodeling" of the Gas Chamber was done in the main camp (Auschwitz I), while Ball's "analysis" of the holes was done on the killing center (Auschwitz II), located at least a few miles apart. While I can't fault you for not knowing all of the details of the camp system, it goes a long way to pointing out the knowledge gap that revisionists/deniers try to exploit -- They advance a story, which while plausible, is not a credible one. Even though someone knowledgeable in that specific area would easily be able to show that their story lacked credibility, many people couldn't, and the expert might not be readily available. We should be glad, then, that history is written be people who _do_ consult those type of experts, and who are interested in facts. 17:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).


To complete this little exercise, I have actually followed and read all of the links, I'm quite surprised you posted the last one. I mean, if this was a well meaning "fact finding" journey, surely the last link you posted above really exposes "the lunatic fringe neo-nazis" that defines the denial/revisionist movement. The "problems" exposed in this little piece are a re-hash of every bad piece of revisionist junk, which, although it's been totally refuted, seems to wash up on some new website every few months as genuine _new_ information. 02:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).
What do you mean by "killing center" in Auschwitz II? How is that different from the gas chamber? Keep in mind here that I'm not trying to prove a point, or take one side or another. However in making an attempt to be fair I think their view deserves attention and I don't think credibility is a factor whatsoever. They arent asking anyone to believe them, they have provided evidence to the contrary of some of the assrtions made about the holocaust. It also seems that those who claim they are keeping an open mind glance through the articles or revisionist material, look for some refutation of the revisionist point and assume it is settled, dismissing the devisionist stance so they can claim the moral highground of having "listened to both sides." In otherwords you are making it about credibility rather than evidence. Now the big question I have is, why do you assume these so called refutations of revisionist material is the deciding factor? Keep in mind the burden of proof is not on the revisionists. That being said it becomes a rather gray area when you use the ambiguous term "holocaust" since contesting one detail could easily get you labeled as a holocaust denier, which de facto assumes you deny or contest every detail.--Nazrac 23:15, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Nazrac, this is all hooey. This tapdance is old, and has been done many times before. Just because a fringe thinks they should be given attention, doesn't mean it should. And _of course_ credibility is a factor; otherwise we would teach the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the earth. Just to clarify, revisionsts/deniers mostly _haven't_ provided "evidence to the contrary" of facts of the Holocaust. And, _of course_ the "burden of proof" is on the revisionists, since the history of World War 2, of which the Holocaust is just one facet, is accepted fact. It's well known and accepted, save in the denier/revisionist world, that the burden of proof is on the skeptic, not on the existing view.
Again, I don't think there is anything wrong raising questions; it's the way that people get informed. It's part of a healthy learning exercise. And you won't get labeled a denier for asking questions. However, when confronted with a logical and credible source, deniers/revisionists refuse to accept such an answer, and instead formulate an illogical conclusion from question sources. This is both bad science and bad history. 06:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).
The burden of proof is on the person alleging a crime has happened. Of course its established fact that jews were persecuted, but that doesn't mean every alleged incident is de facto accurate simply because the broader holocaust umbrella is accepted. Because has yet the theory of relativity is generally accepted, does not mean it is complete or beyond question. No one has yet to explain why red shift has been observed moving towards us instead of away from us, which violates the theory of general relativity, even though it is essentially most accurate in many areas. Now, if someone were to come up with an alternate theory, perhaps similar to relativity, by with some key differences, would that be considered scientific revisionism?Of course it would, and it happens all the time, as it happens with every other aspect of history, EXCEPT the holocaust. So why is it so tabboo to question it? why is everyone in such a hurry to shoot down any disagreement with the official story? why is there virtually no official disagreement on the various aspects of the holocaust? I suppose because no one wants to believe otherwise. I suspect this is based on emotional, political and false moral reasons, none of which should ever interfere with investigating historical phenomenon. One thing you're also forgetting is the history of the holocaust has been revised countless times. I still see numerous holocaust and political websites, books and tv documentaries claiming Dachau had a gas chamber, even though it is now "accepted fact" that there were no gas chambers operating on German soil. Infact the primary focus on the gas chamber story seems to have been originally on Dachau, but subsequently shifted attention eastwards until finally it was admitted there was no gas chamber at all on German soil. One can even find a map of Dachau on google without much difficulty, indicating a gas chamber location, despite the fact that this notion has been thoroughly discredited.
I also find it hard to believe any of you have read through the above mentioned sources I posted, as you dismissed them all as "revisionist non-sense" despite the fact that some of those claims, such as the soap made out of jewish body fat, have also been dismissed by modern mainstream historians as nonsense, despite the fact that it was widely accepted initially after the war, and Simon Weisenthal himself claimed to have seen this occuring in concentration camps. Apparently no one told the French this either, as they still have a memory dedicated to the jewish victims whose body parts were allegedly used to create industrial products.
--Nazrac 20:12, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
During a trial, the "burden" of proof is on the prosecution in the modern western legal system. However, History isn't written by judges and lawyers, but rather by historians, who collect, collate, sift through and then write about history, with opinions on the causes of events and their implications. Once this process is completed, the "burden" then shifts to those that dispute the opinions. Your science example is a good illustration. If someone comes up with "a different theory", is it the people who espouse the current theory's job to shoot down this new theory? Of course not. The BURDEN of proof is on the NEW theorists to show that their theory fits all of the known facts, and does so _better_ then the current theory. They are then expected to publish their findings, so that other scientists can verify their work and have their theory accepted by the community. While science isn't totally parallel to history in this regard, since much of science is theory-based while history is fact based, there are challenges to the _opinions_ about history, but not to the validity of the underlying events. For instance, no one claims World War One didn't happen. But why not?
You say there is "no official disagreement", but many historians disagree about the Holocaust. There are many opinions about various events, about why it happened. I think you are frustrated because there isn't much discussion about _whether_ it happened. However, there isn't much discussion about whether World War One happened either. Will you be jumping onto _that_ historical investigation, since it seems "no one wants to believe otherwise"?
A quick word on the Dachau -- while it never had an _operational_ killing gas chamber, it did certainly have such a chamber. So, what is wrong with a map of the camp indicating it existed?
As to soap nonsense, you originally provided that when challenged about Ilse Koch's conviction, which you claimed was due to human lampshade evidence. Can I assume that you've "revised" your viewpoint on this, then?
As for soap being "widely accepted", could you provide evidence of this wide acceptence? It does seem that inmates were taunted with "made into soap", so there may have been widespread _rumours_ about soapmaking. But rumours are not evidence, and this does not make the soapmaking story "widely accepted" among historians, despite what revisionists/deniers imply. 02:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).
"it is now "accepted fact" that there were no gas chambers operating on German soil." See Karmasyn on h-holocaust, "More about Hitchens and "German soil"", 30 May 2001 Apokrif 11:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the link. To clarify a bit more, there were certainly delousing gas chambers at virtually _every_ concentration camp, and there was a killing gas chamber constructed at Dachau, but it wasn't the site of mass murders. 17:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).

[edit] population section

Couple of queries about the population section:

The article suggests that the high post-war figure for the Jewish population is innaccurately cited by Holocaust sceptics. Rather, as I understand it, it is correctly cited, but misunderstood. The post-war figure was largely derived from 1939, not the year of publication. This is why pre-war and post-war populations do in fact initially show up as being similar. A revised figure was then provided by the American Jewish Committee with more relevant and contemporary information, giving the lower figure. Atm the article suggests that the claim for a high post-war figure is simply invented. This doesn't appear to be true.

Secondly, and probably simply as a result of edits by different people, the section presents a rather contradictory picture of the World Almanac. In the first paragraph it relies on it as authoritative, but in the third paragraph invites the reader to conclude that the Almanac is far from authoritative: Either 3.7 million Jews appeared unnoticed between 1982 and 1990, and then 4.5 million Jews disappeared equally unnoticed between 1990 and 1996, or the World Almanac is not a particularly reliable source for accurate estimates of worldwide Jewish population. In fact it seems the same "selective citing of sources" that is the criticism levelled in the next paragraph. I don't know, but to me it makes wikipedia sound rather less than authoritative itself. 02:50, 7 June 2006 Hakluyt bean

[edit] article as a whole

(Sorry, thought I'd put this separately)

Referring to the article overall, if you google holocaust denial, as I've just done, you get apart from this article, frequent reference to allegations made after the First World War of 6 million deaths among Jewish Europeans. This seems to be the chronological first point of reference of Holocaust sceptics. But not mentioned here?

It also struck me that some of the language is a tad tendentious (?). For example: Deniers consider one of their stronger arguments to be the population of Jews before and after the Holocaust. This argument is then rebutted. Well, rebutting the argument is straightforward, as I illustrate in my above comment, but I'm not sure how the writer of that section knows that the particular argument is indeed considered one of the stronger arguments. Is it? And if so could it be cited in some way?

In a way this goes to the heart of the use of the term "holocaust deniers" as if this describes an homogenous group, which I see is talked about elsewhere, so I won't bore anyone further with it here. 02:53, 7 June 2006 Hakluyt bean

This is the propaganda tactic the holocaust lobby uses. They create some catch phrase like "holocaust" which means "death by fire." They then throw an enourmous amount of allegations of criminal murderous actions under this umbrella catch phrase. That way if anyone starts asking too many questions they can conveniently be labeled a "holocaust denier" which is yet another catch phrase. If anyone questions even the most minute detail they are in an instant labeled a "holocaust denier" which is instant academic suicide and a prison sentence in many countries. Following the war there were hundreds of jewish witnesses who claimed the Germans had been making lampshades out of jewish skin, boiling down the bodies of jewish victims to make soap and cosmetic products out their body fat and other absurd ideas. These accusations didnt come from a few jews here and there who obviously didnt remember things quite as they happened, they came influential jews like Simon Weisenthal. Today this claim has been quietly dropped and there is almost no mention of it, nor is there mention of it on this pathetic article. As far as I can tell this article doesn't provide any proof whatsoever contradicting "holocaust deniers." It simply states in alot of bloated and misleading verbiage "the holocaust deniers are wrong and are a bunch of liars"
This article attempts to "refute" the claims simply by saying "that isnt true."
It is rife with character assassination, and completely void of any fact, reason or logic. It is a bunch of hollow doublespeak. 06:17, 27 June 2006 Nazrac
Erm.... :) Well, I agree with your assessment of the article. This is an easy subject to research, but somehow the article brings nothing to the table of exhibits. Naturally it's controversial and I'm guessing there's a certain amount of self-censorship. It's fascinating to me; received wisdom, rhetorical conceits, contrained discussion, stuff like that. I agree the phrase 'holocaust denier' is a kind of Rhetorical device, or anyway a triumph of rhetoric over substance, but it's probably unwise to say so. On which point it's readily observable that some holocaust sceptics have ulterior motives, usually just common or garden racism. This is the point at which some say there can't be further discussion because there's a rowdy mob at the back of the hall. I think that's wikipedia's view. I don't think you can have encyclopedic articles on that basis however.
Hakluyt bean 22:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
The main problem with this article is no one here seems to have read revisionist material. How can you refute something you havent read? The tactic here seems to 1. Look for the main objections raised by revisionists 2. Look for arguments or "facts" that refute those objections 3. write a definitive article about how false revisionism is. If you take a pre-conceived notion and then try to prove or disprove it by only looking for facts that support the pre-conceived notion, you get a distorted picture. You arent really supporting both views and conducting yourself in an un-biased manor and thus violating Wikipedia rules, not to mention being a poor scholar. By using that crude methodology you are asserting a POV while slandering the opponent as a "denier" of history. This article seems also to be as much about trashing the opposing view as it is "refuting" their claims.--Nazrac 20:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
The main problem here is the inability to distinguish between "discussion form" and "work of fact". The _fact_ is that there are those that seek to minimize or deny part of history. And a "slander" is something said about someone that is untrue. David Irving found out that telling the truth _is_ a defence against slander when he sued. Wikipedia's mantra isn't to provide a platform for EVERY view; that is what a discussion form is for. It's also not completely unbiased; there is a bias for truth and correctness. 05:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).
And there are also those who seek to grossly distort, misrepresent and twist the facts and historical accuracy for political purposes, both by means of omission and commission. That I think is a far greater crime than someone who pokes holes in a number of the more obvious falsehoods. The fact is history is constantly in a state of revision, as is Wikipedia. What is so wrong about wanting to start an honest debate on the subject? It has been my observation that throughout history for every so called denier of history there are 100 liars and fabricators. I simply dont see why so much time is spent blasting holocaust deniers, if there even is such a thing to begin with. I see more attacks on the credibility of the individuals in question rather than the claims they are making. I haven't ever seen one website that denies every single crime commited during the holocaust, rather they disagree some details that certain interests are insinuating as fact. I don't see how that equates to "denial" at all. Just because someone doesn't buy every jewskin lampshade story they read on holocaust websites does not make them a denier of history. Why is everyone on here so afraid of David Irving anyway? I have yet to see anyone conclusively refute any of his work, aside from pointing out a few trivial inaccuracies. Just my two cents.--Nazrac 05:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
It's true, history is in a constant revision -- but not the kind that so called "holocaust revisionists" dabble in. TRUE historical revisionism has to do with the causes and effects of history, and not whether event(s) transpired or not. While there is much debate over the causes of WWI, for instance, there is no serious debate that it occured. What deniers do, under the guise of "revisionism", is not debate why the Holocaust happened, but rather question whether some or all of it occured at all. This isn't a revision, but an attempt to rewrite the facts of history.
Denial works with lots of "codewords", much like the Nazi system that helped foster the Holocaust. They are engaged in "revisionism", not denial of fact. There are "certain interests" that are motivated to have history written a certain way, which they don't agree with.
Finally, no one is afraid of David Irving. He's proved himself a fool, quite admirably, by suing for slander in England, where the defendents had the more difficult burden of proof, and he still managed to lose. And if you haven't read a refutation of Irving, you obviously missed "Lying about Hitler: History, Holocaust, and the David Irving Trial" by Richard J. Evans, a great book by a History Professor who took Irving's sources to task and proved he manipulated what they said. 04:55, 11 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).
The problem is no one except the lunatic fringe neo-nazis deny the holocaust in every facet occured. Most revisionists dont deny it at all but disagree on major points, as any other facet of history is debated by historians. The difference is the Holocaust is a very emotionally charged issue, so any perceipted attempt to question or revise the current accept account is met with suspicion or outright hostility, regardless of how well intentioned or accurate the argument may be. By calling everyone who calls into question certain details a holocaust denier, you are doing a dis-service to yourself and others. What do you mean by "code-words"? Certainly there are those who have an interest in twisting history, but not everyone, and it works both ways. One might argue there are certain powerful interests who want to prevent closer examination of the holocaust and evidence for or against it, so labeling anyone who starts sniffing around and drawing in too much attention is labeled "holocaust denier" regardless of the intention. It isn't just alleged neo-nazis who have been given this label. David Cole for example is jewish and has been on the receiving end of this term. A person's motivation or alleged motivation for questions or examining certain accepted facts does not change the fact that they may very well have a point. I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with revisionist views, but I have at least taken to the time to read them in depth, rather than dismiss them with prejudice as having some sinister intention.
--Nazrac 20:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
There is little substantial difference between "denying every facet" and "disagreeing om major points", as far as most Revisionists/Deniers go. Make no mistake -- there are very few people who want to supress a critical examination of history, or even the Holocaust. The Holocaust is an emotional event, especially for those involved and their families. However, most revisionist material is neither "well intentioned" or "accurate". Further, there is no demands for "debate" on whether Gas was used in WW I, that we provide forensic reports to show it happened, etc etc. This microscopic examination of the topic is saved only for the Holocaust. The truth is, most revisionists/deniers have a very limited interest in history -- mostly around "Zionism" and Isreal. Most historians have an interest in at least a few areas of history, even if they specialize in just one. It's great to take time to read the revisionist/denial material in depth; but make sure you expend the same effort in reading the refutations of this material, which are quite enlightening. 17:03, 12 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).

Peter Lee writes- This article complies with U.S law, which states that the Holocaust is an undeniable truth. That mmeans that, no matter how much evidence you provide that no people were ever killed in a gas chamber, the United States Legal system will accept the Holocaust myth as a truth. It's like the problem in Italy where a man is being charged with denying the existence of jesus, or in Afghanistan where it is illegal to preach against islam. The writr has misdirected your attention away from the fact that holocaust myth was created to build support for the state of israel at the United Nations back in 1948 after jewish terrorists killed hundreds of innocent civilians there. And while Israel continues to defy the U.N on every front, they need this myth to continue to support their fraudulent claim of sovereignty over Palestinian land. dupisha@google.com

Yes, very interesting how no one ever mentions the jewish terrorist groups who commited shootings and bombings against the British in Palestine after the war. I also recall reading somewhere Winston Churchill was quoted as saying "I think we slaughtered the wrong pig" around the same time. --Nazrac 20:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure who Peter Lee is, but he seems as uninformed as your are. There are _NO_ laws in the United States that say the Holocaust "is an undeniable truth". In fact, there are no laws against Revisionism or Holocaust Denial in the United States AT ALL.
It's ironic that _just above_ this I handwaved at this very tiresome linking of the Holocaust to Zionism. What's "interesting" here is that the agenda of _most_ revisionist "truth seekers" is much more transparent then they care to admit. If you have some interesting insight into the creation of the state of Israel, or "jewish terrorist groups", I'm sure there is a place to add them, provided they are fact based -- but none of this is relevant to Holocaust denial. 00:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).
'holocaust myth was created to build support for the state of israel at the United Nations back in 1948' - I don't know how much you've looked into the facts but obviously not very much. Just one interesting point, of course you could say it's all part of the "myth". When some of the holocaust survivors came to Israel after the end of the war, no one believed them there (up to a sertain extent) untill the eichman trial when the state brought survivors to testify for the first time. 20:43, 22 October 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.64.221.101 (talk • contribs).
This article and dicussion page are very amusing. It appears - I may be wrong - that Jews ( I am one myself - a few generation removed, about 4 grandfathers ago) write the article for an opposing view. Of course they write most of the articles touching on the subject. Is there any way that deniers can get to write an article so we can see their evidence first hand? Having an article responding to their article would be a little less heavyhanded. In this article there seems to be a rush to get to the end of each sentence so you can stick it to the argument. I wouldn't let any of you guys argue both sides of any thing except in wiki. 20:31, 15 November 2006 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.105.80.92 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Denial as anti-Semitism

Is the point of view of Chomsky in Faurisson affair#Chomsky's response an isolated one? Apokrif 17:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC) See also "Inside the bunker.(in-depth look at those who deny the Holocaust)", John Sack, Esquire, 1st February 2001, Volume 135; Issue 2: "Nor did they seem anti-Semites. I'm sure many anti-Semites say the Holocaust didn't happen (even as they take delight that it really did), but I don't believe I met any that weekend [a conference of deniers]" (he compares deniers with cryptozoologists) Apokrif 15:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I read the article with a genuine interest in the subject with very little prior knowledge. I felt the tone was far from neutral and more "this is why everyone who thinks this is wrong." Particularly the part about the pre and post-war Jewish populations. Basically, I felt it was blatant what stand-point the author is from, whereas I was looking for an honest representation of facts. What about those who aren't denying the holocaust but questioning the honesty and integrity of the number Jewish deaths specifically without being labelled neo-nazis. I've probably gone about this all the wrong way, but it makes me angry that the article was just there, seemingly unquestioned.---15:54, 11 October 2006 Clkarp
There have been many studies of the Holocaust done by a range of Historians, and there is a diversity of estimates on the exact number of victims, both Jewish and non Jewish. However, there are few if any scholars who "question the honesty and integrity of the number of Jewish deaths specifically" without actually doing a thorough study.
The article should be an honest representation of the claims of revisionists/deniers, but as their claims are not accepted by Historians (or backed by any evidence), I'm not sure what "facts" are missing. Cantankrus 20:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Burden of proof

I think we could discuss (but, is this approach neutral?) http://www.geniebusters.org/915/04g_jumping.html : looks like its fallacy is that, unlike encounters with UFO, the Holocaust happened only once, and that unlike psi powers, the Holocaust cannot be reproduced at will (so the level of evidence required is higher for psi powers than for encounters with UFO, which in turn require stronger proof than the Holocaust). Apokrif 17:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

No, the difference is that the Holocaust is a historical event, and psi powers and UFO sightings are contemporary things. The approach in the linked article isn't about the Holocaust as an event, but rather a challenge to the Skeptic's article; and the author of the linked article talks only about _gas_ chambers. 05:36, 2 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).
We all know the kind of loony bins one will find at UFO conventions. The question is how are they any different than the people who fabricated stories about the Germans making lampshades out of the skin of murdered jews and cosmetic products out of their body fat? That seems not only crackpot but malicious in intent. They actually produced a lampshade that was used to incriminate Isle Koch, the wife of the Buchanwald commandant during the Nuremburg trials. It was claimed she collected items, including furniture made from the corpses of jews murdered in the camp. She commited suicide after spending two decades in prison. It was subsequently detirmined that the lampshade was made out of goat skin. Sadly we still see this sort of proposterously absurd nonsense on numerous holocaust websites despite being thoroughly disproven in more recent times.--Nazrac 17:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
There are many stories about various atrocities, and it is true that some of the more sordid ones get more play, but that doesn't make them fabricated. The truth about Ilse Koch, it seems, is that she _wasn't_ convicted with a lampshade, or any human skin article from Buchanwald. She was sentenced to life, commuted to 4 years for her crimes at Buchanwald by the military courts. She was then subsequently tried by German courts and sentenced to life, again with no reference to any human skin article. She was implicted in several testimonies in the collection and possession of human skin tattoos. If you have some reference that disproves this, it would be interesting to read. 05:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).
http://www.codoh.com/newrevoices/nwidmann/nwidsoap.html
http://www.zundelsite.org/english/antiprop/jewish_soap/index.html
Ironically only decades later has the holocaust lobby quietly dropped this claim, although the self proclaimed "Nazi hunter" Simon Weisenthal made these claims, and never retracted them before his death recently. Despite being thoroughly disproven, these claims are still parroted off on a number of "holocaust research" websites. Why is it only those evil lying holocaust deniers are the ones making a stink about this scandal against human decency and historical honesty? One might venture to guess its still more profitable to continue portraying Nazi Germany as comic book supervillians.
--Nazrac 21:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Amazing that those "lying" deniers keep parroting the same lies, though? The refrences have to do with SOAP, not Ilse Koch, human skin artifacts or what she was convicted of in courts of law. But, lampshades, human skin, what difference is the truth as long as there is some vague refutation. There is no need for comic books to portray Nazi Germany as villians; they did that without any need for imbellishment. I'm not sure anything here has been "thoroughly disproven" though - while it's true that some of these more horrific stories get more play, just because they aren't widespread doesn't mean they aren't true. 04:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).
Try reading the entire articles I cited above before posting, you'll save yourself some confusion and save face by not posting meaningless responses. Is there some reason you're afraid to actually read it?
--Nazrac 05:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I asked for something on point about Ilse Koch, and you posted links about Soap. While that might make sense to you, it makes no sense to me, whatsoever. I guess I'm one of those few logical people that expects an on point answer to an on point question; call me crazy. Above, you mentioned that Ilse Koch had been incriminated with a lampshade; I asked for a reference about _that_, not about soap. Is there some reason you didn't send a link to back up your assertation above? 05:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.136.47.2 (talk • contribs).
Why are you posting on this Talk: page, Nazrac? Do you have a point? Jayjg (talk) 04:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not an objective article on holocaust denial and is a disgrace to the Wikipedia rules. Wazzally 21:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

That's nice. Any specific criticism? --Havermayer 21:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
An examination of Holocaust denial should present both cases - this does not. It is clearly written by someone who strongly disagrees with "holcaust denial". I wish to see both sides and then make my own assessment - this article and the discussion does not assist in anyway. Amateur debating society if you ask me. 21:28, 16 November 2006 Wazzally
NPOV does not mean giving equal space to all sides of the argument, it means giving a neutral and honest treatment to all sides. The vast majority of evidence, research, and historical fact is weighted in favor of the Holocaust, simply because of the fact that the Holocaust occurred. It is also a fact that the arguments and "evidence" of Holocaust deniers are flimsy and tremendously outweighed and overwhelmed by the evidence of their opponents, because their arguments are poorly stated and impossible to support. This article is indeed weighted strongly against Holocaust denial, because this is NPOV: the fact that historical fact and evidence itself is weighted strongly against Holocaust denial. --Modemac 21:34, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Also take notice of Undue Weight. Pseudo-history does not need to be given the same weight as real history. Sorry--131.104.139.117 00:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I found this article interesting and educational; however I do agree with Wazzally that the article in its current state is NPOV. While it may be true that historical evidence weighs against Holocaust denial, the style in which this article is written seeks to persuade the reader that this is the case. This shouldn't be the case on Wikipedia. Phonemonkey 14:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../e/x/a/Talk%7EExamination_of_Holocaust_denial_ab7c.html"