Talk:European Graduate School

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Articles for deletion

This article was nominated for deletion on February 3, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep
Articles for deletion

This article was re-nominated for deletion on June 11, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents

[edit] Note on AfDs

Before contemplating nomination of this article on AfD, consider whether doing so is out of bad-faith and is a WP:POINT violation. Two previous nominations both resulted in overwhelming support for "keep". LotLE×talk 14:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Older comments

It seems that the texts are directly copied from the website of this school. -Lorenzarius 17:02 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Many references to this EGS seems to be advertising. See what links here.


"The European Graduate School is governed by a Presidential Board that includes a representative of the accrediting state (Swiss canton of Valais)." (Wiki entry) "The European Graduate School is pleased to announce that EGS has passed the first stage of the federal Swiss Government’s accreditation process and been granted Candidacy status. Previously we had been accredited by the state of Wallis." (http://www.egsuniversity.ch). Comments from last editor are wrong or NPOV.

Yes, this school does not look very serious. Note that the Canton of Wallis has no university. Marc Mongenet 21:07, 2005 Apr 10 (UTC)

-It looks amazing - Baudrillard, Zizek, Haraway, Jean-Luc Nancy and David Lynch as faculty staff? And in a lecture on Open Source/Free Software Stallman is guest lecturer??? Also says: Jean-François Lyotard was a guiding spirit during the founding phase and Jacques Derrida amicably supported our work for many years and has held his last workshop in April 2004. Thats such an amazing brain trust, and themes are extremely interesting. Looks so good that Im allmost inclined to be sceptical just because its so good :) But thats too cinical an attitude to take - so Im wondering if anyone has aditional info on how it really is.

-aryah It is a superb school, academically rigorous. It is unbelievably wonderful to work with such great minds -- both students and professors alike.

- lotu5 - i added some photos. i hope they're appreciated and i hope that more people add to the article.

[edit] Spam

This whole article smells of spam. Surely all these great philosophers spent their summer in this private school... Santa Sangre 02:56, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Your comments smells of incompetence. Please read the wikipedia guidelines and support your arguments with resources and references before make such statements.

Well actually you should start by signing your comments, not deleting adds claiming it's "vandalism" when it's obviously not, and provide proof that each of these persons has attended once this school. Santa Sangre 00:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Last time i checked there was no requirement to sign in (personally i do not see a difference between an ip address and an alias account like yours), but whenever i state (or delete) something then i usually provide some resources and references for my claims. you failed to do so and this tells me something about your academic integrity. please continue the discussion at the articles for deletion page - there you will find a few references that you apparently "missed" ... (written in saas-fee, european graduate school)

[edit] Adorno

Why is Adorno linked in the See Also section? (and Gamben really holds a faculty position at EGS, he doesn't belong in the See Also section but in the main article). Can someone provide a convincing reason, or I'll be removing that reference. And yes, I know who both Adorno and Gamben are having been compelled to read them at university Bwithh 21:50, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean Agamben? David Sneek 12:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation needed cruft

Out of some mysterious animosity towards this school, User:Santa Sangre decided that a massive WP:POINT violation would somehow "get even" with the school, or with WP editors he doesn't like, or with <something>. In particular, he added the {{citation needed}} tag to every single name mentioned in the article as prior guest faculty. It's a really absurd abuse of WP:V, and is not how things are done at WP.

Out of curiosity, I decided to look at the entry for Yale University, a well known and prestigious school that I hope even Santa Sangre doesn't believe to be a hoax. Skimming through, I find this sentence:

Yale's English and literature departments were the birthplace of New Criticism. Of the New Critics, Robert Penn Warren, W.K. Wimsatt, and Cleanth Brooks were all Yale faculty.

That sentence is presented without any citation whatsoever tht any of those professors were actually at Yale! Oh the horror! What a violation of WP:V. Maybe we should put the page on AfD because of such advertising. LotLE×talk 18:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

For another time, I ask Lolu to adress the point of the EGS and not me (you actually have a problem with me, I don't have any personal problem neither with the EGS nor you). There is quite a lot of elements indicating that this school is not notable and that it constitutes spam (whether it was done by well-intentionned Wikipedians students of that school, like you who openly admitted it - so you do have a point with the EGS, which is not my case, so stop reversing things please;
Where on earth did you get this fantasy that you keep repeating?! I'm not a student at the school, and have no affiliation with it whatsoever. I simply find this dreary belaboring of the utterly absurd idea that EGS is "non-notable" really annoying. And more than that, I am offended by the gross WP:POINT violation of demanding an entirely different citation procedure for this article than is used in every other article on a school or university (hence the Yale example); someone in the AfD discussion suggested Black Mountain College as a better analogy: a very small and isolated school that had a surprising number of quite notable visiting scholars/faculty. Go look at that article, it also has a dizzying array of names, none of which have an absurdly pedantic "{fact}" tag next to them (nor a per-name citation). Whether or not 50 years from now EGS will have the same significance as Black Mountain has, I have no idea, but they're institutions created out of similar motivations, and of similar scope. LotLE×talk 17:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
or whether it was done by the EGS itself who has now created its own User:Europeangraduateschool page which it explicitly portraits as a place to "discuss relationships between Wikipedia & the EGS". Now, I don't really know why would Wikipedia would be interested in such a page. The EGS has also considered that the AfD page was actually a "forum" to discuss relationship between Wikipedia & EGS, which is quite a misunderstanding of Wikipedia, to say the least & say it mildly. Now, I'm not disturbing Wikipedia to make a point, as you presume without any proof (again, you yourself openly admit on your talk page that "presuming good faith" is a requirement valid only for those who adopt such good faith; in other words, you may need to meditate a bit more on the existence of this Wikipedia rule before accusing others users of violating them. You will surely found out that this rule is precisely there because there isn't much on Internet- "life" which allows you to make deductions about people as you are doing about me -- but isn't this just an attempt to speak about me instead of speaking about the EGS? You haven't found much sources alleging the notability of this school, apart of the EGS website itself & photos which are not proofs, as a school versed in critical theory and modern media should know). I've added a citation tag not to everyone (not that I wouldn't have, I just got tired before), and these are justified since it is most surprising to see such world-famous philosophers, etc., present at this school. It may be true, but again, we can't just trust the EGS about it and should find other sources. Instead of attacking me, Lulu, I would be thankful for you to adress the real points of the problem, and to consider that if Wikipedia didn't have such requirements, than just any thief could claim he created a school and use Wikipedia as a channel to advertise his hoax. I am not claiming that the EGS is a hoax — although I haven't had much elements proving me that it's not — but if you would stop to think about it a second, you would find it perfectly normal & in accordance with Wikipedia to require sources.
No, it's not anything remotely close to "perfectly normal". You are demanding an entirely different (and much stricter) style, standard, and format of citation on this article than exists on any other Wikipedia article. And you're doing so out of manifest bad-faith. The type of "proof" you demand greatly resembles the type of "proof" that a paranoid schizophrenic demands that the doctors are "in on" the conspiracy against him; it will never, and can never, be met. And you're right, I'm not going to engage in some foolish game of "playing along with" the unanswerable demand. LotLE×talk 17:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Verifiability & stop attacking users. And stop using other Wikipedia pages to make your point, we're talking about the EGS not about Yale. I don't need the Internet to "prove" me Yale exists, but I would never had learnt about the EGS if there hadn't been a EGS Wikipedia page created & so much high-level philosophers wikified to go to this page (which is Wikipedia:Spam). Santa Sangre 13:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
User:Lulu_of_the_Lotus-Eaters, you should cut down on the rampant bad faith and point accusations, especially given that you yourself made patently false statements about Santa Sangre's edit history: on the AfD page: "almost all the edits by the AfD nominator, Santa Sangre, are about EGS too." (time stamp 02:21, 13 June 2006). The standards on inclusion at WP are absolute and are not overriden by bad precedents. If you believe the school merits inclusion you should provide the reliable sources to back it up, rather than attack other editors and make up your own standards. ~ trialsanderrors 20:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Tell you what... try to find one article on a college or university that doesn't violate these alleged standards you have propounded (but that have no precedence in any actual guidelines or policies). It just plain is bad-faith to demand that this article have an entirely different style and standard of citation than any other article on a school. FWIW, I do see that Santa Sangre's edits go back farther, I first heard of him/her when s/he made a series of edits to Slavoj Zizek, all about EGS; when I looked through Santa Sangre's edits, most of the recent ones were indeed efforts to remove mentions of EGS in various places and/or WP:POINT violations on this article itself. Maybe s/he's gone on to do other things since. LotLE×talk 20:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
It just plain is bad-faith to demand that this article have an entirely different style and standard of citation than any other article on a school. Back this up with something. I can't find anything that tells me holding up any entry to WP:V is considered in bad faith. It would also behoove you to check Santa Sangre's edit history enough to realize he has a strong track record on edits prior to his EGS involvement and issue an apology. ~ trialsanderrors 20:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Your demands, as you well know, haven't the faintest connection to WP:V]. For examples, look at those mentioned of Yale and Black Mountain, which list affiliated faculty. But pretty much any other article on a university is the same. If you believe, as you seem to, that every article on a school violates WP:V, you're simply reading WP:V wrong. LotLE×talk 21:01, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I take this as admittance that you have nothing to back this up with. BMC as well as Yale are schools that are easily verifiable via outside sources. EGS, not so much. Think a little about the difference. WP:V allows, with much caution, to use personal webpages as primary sources, which is why I voted cautious keep. It is very clear about not allowing the use of as secondary source to make statements about third parties. I assume you posted your apology to Santa Sangre on his talk page. ~ trialsanderrors 04:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] It is not registered as a Wallis university

I take the liberty to paste Marc Mongenet's comment on the AfD page here to explain my recent reversal: "*Comment by Marc Mongenet 10:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC) Here is what the Canton of Valais writes about itself [1] (in French, here is my translation and wikification) :
TRAINING AND RESEARCH - The department of Education, Culture and Sport organizes and oversees training and research in Valais. Only Romand canton without university, Valais is nevertheless an important place for research and training. Centers like Institut universitaire Kurt Bösch in Bramois or the Alpenforschung in Brig have an important reputation out of the borders of the canton.
So, writing that the EGS is the University of Valais is highly misleading. It is a small private school in a remote skiing resort that calls itself a universtity. It may do so, but it has nothing to do with 'real' (and all public) universities of Switzerland (University of Lausanne, University of Geneva, EPFL, ETHZ...) and nobody in Switzerland considers such schools as universities (this why canton of Valais itself writes it has got no university, which is common knowledge in Switzerland). Marc Mongenet 10:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)" Thank you. BTW, Lulu, I might have mistaken you with Lul0, if this is the case I apologize. Santa Sangre 17:49, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The vs.ch website lists EGS as a private educational (teaching) institute, separated from the university educational and research centers. That's the only thing I could find. In any case, I don't take MM's comment as positve evidence that EGS isn't recognized in some form, only as absence of evidence. ~ trialsanderrors 18:49, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CASH magazine on the status of EGS

The following excerpts are from two 1999 articles in the Swiss business magazine CASH accessed through the Factiva database. They deal with doubts about the EGS's exact institutional status and also suggest that a couple of the famous faculty listed by EGS have not heard of the school (if Google Translator was working right when I rammed the text through it). Bwithh 22:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Translations added in italics by trialsanderrors 23:07, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Excerpts from 1999 articles in German: Pipilotti, Greenaway & Co. 694 words 9 July 1999 CASH German Copyright 1999, CASH, die Wirtschaftszeitung der Schweiz. Jede Woche Information im Klartext zu BUSINESS, ECONOMICS, CASUAL, INVEST. Alle Rechte vorbehalten. Mehr Infos unter www.cash.ch Karriere

Das Wallis wird zum bevorzugten Kanton alternativer Bildungsangebote. Zur Fernuniversität Hagen kommen jetzt die Sommerkurse der European Graduate School. Auf deren eindrücklicher Dozentenliste fungieren unter anderen Regisseur Peter Greenaway, Chaostheoretiker Mitchell Feigenbaum und Pipilotti Rist. Nur die Anerkennungsfrage ist nicht ganz befriedigend gelöst.

The Wallis is becoming the preferred canton for alternatives education packages. The Distance University of Hagen adds summer courses by the European Graduate School (?). Their emphatic list of faculties includes film director Peter Greenaway, chaos theorist Mitchell Feigenbaum and (artist) Pipilotti Rist. Only the question of accreditation is not adequately solved.

Die Schulleitung nimmt den Mund etwas gar voll: «Swiss state-approved» und «fully recognized» seien die Titel M.A. und Ph.D. in Communication, die von der European Graduate School EGS verliehen werden. Das hört sich gut an, stimmt aber nicht. Universitäten sind in erster Linie Sache der Kantone, der Bund selber führt lediglich die beiden Eidgenössischen Technischen Hochschulen ETH in Zürich und Lausanne. Das angestrebte Anerkennungsverfahren für private Universitäten hat noch nicht einmal den Weg durchs Parlament geschafft. Handelt es sich bei der EGS also um eine Art Walliser Universität? Keineswegs, sagt Kurt Grünwald, der Hochschulbeauftragte des Kantons. Anerkannt sind lediglich die Abschlüsse, nicht jedoch die Schule selber. Und selbst die Anerkennung von M.A. («Master of Arts») und Ph.D., was dem Doktortitel entspricht, muss jährlich erneuert werden.

The administration is making bold claims: "Swiss state-approved" and "fully recognized" are the MA and PhD titles in Communications awarded by the EGS. That sounds good, but isn't true. Universities are first a matter for cantons, the federation only runs the two ETH's in Zurich and Lausanne. The targeted accreditation process for private universities hasn't even made it through parliament. Does this mean the EGS is some kind of Wallisian university? Not so, says Kurt Grünwald, the officer responsible for universities in the canton. What's accredited are the degrees, not the school itself. And even an accreditation of an MA or PhD (comparable to a Doctorate) has to be renewed annually.

Was aber bedeutet die Anerkennung durch den Kanton Wallis konkret? Kurt Grünwald präzisiert: «Wir haben die Qualität geprüft.» Das heisst, die Kooperationspartner - im Fall der EGS die Hochschule für Musik und Theater in Hamburg, das Endicott College in Beverly, USA, und das California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco - sind zuverlässig, der Lehrplan macht Sinn, die Qualifikation der Dozenten steht ausser Zweifel. Eine Hochschule schweizerischen oder kantonalen Rechts ist die EGS damit noch nicht. Die Anerkennung durch den Kanton ist deswegen nicht nutzlos. Laut Kurt Grünwald erhalten die Walliser Behörden, die klar zu ihrer Hochschul-Nischenpolitik stehen, immer wieder Anfragen von Anbietern, die trotz mangelnder Qualität gern den staatlichen Segen auf ihren Diplomen hätten. Joseph Escher, der Beauftragte für Anerkennungsfragen, ist aber zurückhaltend mit den Empfehlungen für den Staatsrat.

But what does the accreditation by the canton mean in practice? Kurt Grünwald clarifies: "We checked the quality." Meaning, the cooperation partners -- for the EGS the Hochschule für Musik und Theater in Hamburg, the Endicott College in Beverly, USA, and the California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco -- are dependable, the curriculum makes sense, and the qualification of the lecturers is beyond doubt. That doesn't mean the EGS is a "Hochschule" (university or college) according to Swiss or cantonal law. The accreditation by the cantoon isn't useless because of that. According to Grünwald the Wallisian public admistration, which stands by its niche strategy in university matters, receives requests for accreditation all the time, but is reticent in giving recommendation to the Cantonal government.

<end of excerpt from first article>

EGS? Noch nie gehört!

EGS? Never heard of!

300 words 23 July 1999 CASH German Copyright 1999, CASH, die Wirtschaftszeitung der Schweiz. Jede Woche Information im Klartext zu BUSINESS, ECONOMICS, CASUAL, INVEST. Alle Rechte vorbehalten. Mehr Infos unter www.cash.ch Karriere

Der Regisseur Peter Greenaway war dort, auch Harvard-Professor Yves-Alain Bois. Ein voller Erfolg sei der Sommerkurs der European Graduate School EGS in Saas Fee, sagt Paolo Kill. Er ist der Dean der Division of Arts, Health and Society der EGS und war einen Moment sprachlos, als er von CASH auf merkwürdige Praktiken des Programmdirektors Wolfgang Schirmacher angesprochen wurde. Dieser führt in der Dozentenliste neben Greenaway und Bois unter anderem auch den weltberühmten Chaostheoretiker Mitchell Feigenbaum (CASH Nr. 27/ 99). Mit einer Kapazität dieses Ranges zu arbeiten wäre für die Studierenden zweifellos ein Gewinn. Nur hat Feigenbaum von dieser Schule noch nie etwas gehört und schon gar nicht dort unterrichtet, wie er gegenüber CASH versichert. «Da muss Professor Schirmacher wohl etwas voreilig gehandelt haben», sagt Paolo Kill. «Wahrscheinlich hat er Feigenbaum im Internet als Dozent angekündigt, bevor er dessen Zusage hatte.»

The director Peter Greenaway was there, as was Harvard professor Yves-Alain Bois. The summer course at the EGS was a complete success, according to Paolo Kill. He is the dean of the Arts, Health and Society division of the EGS and was speechless for a moment when queried about the odd practices of program director Wolfgang Schirmacher. The same who includes in the faculty directory, next to Greenaway and Bois and others, the world famous chaos theorist Mitchell Feigenbaum (see CASH 27/99). To work with an expert of this renown would certianly be enriching for any student. Just that Feigenbaum has never heard of the school and quite certainly never taught there, as he assured CASH. "Professor Schirmacher must have acted prematurely," says Paolo Kill. "He probably announced Feigenbaum as lecturer on the internet before getting his agreement."

Das ist für einen Programmverantwortlichen unverzeihlich. Und schwer verständlich ist es, wie die Walliser Behörden versichern können, sie hätten das Angebot der EGS genau geprüft, bevor sie deren Diplome anerkannt habe.

So genau offenbar nicht: Pipilotti Rist, ebenfalls im Dozentenverzeichnis der EGS, erklärte auf Anfrage, auch sie hätte keinerlei Kenntnis von der European Graduate School.

For the adminsitrator responsible for the program that's unpardonable. And hard to understand how the Wallisian bureaucrats can claim that they checked the EGS thoroughly before accepting their degrees (diplomas).
Not quite as thoroughly, obviously. Pipilotti Rist, also listed in the EGS faculty directory, responded to an inquiry that she had no knowledge of the EGS.

Will der Kanton Wallis seinen Ruf als Standort unkonventioneller Hochschulen nicht ruinieren, müsste er Schirmacher endlich auf die Finger sehen. Dass dieser die EGS eigenmächtig als staatlich anerkannte Universität darstellte, haben die Hochschulverantwortlichen in Bern bereits kritisiert. Anerkannt sind nämlich nur die Abschlüsse, und auch die nicht von der Schweiz, sondern vom Kanton Wallis. Wenn Schirmacher jetzt auch noch falsche Angaben zu den Dozenten macht, ist die Glaubwürdigkeit vollends dahin. Was schade wäre um die wertvollen Initiativen des Kantons im Hochschulwesen. Ruedi Arnold

If the canton of Wallis doesn't want to lose its reputation as an address for unconventional colleges, it should finally check Schirmacher's actions. The fact that he unilaterally presented the EGS as federally recognized university has already criticized by Berne (the federal capital). Accredited are only the degrees, und not by Switzerland but by the canton. If Schirmacher also makes false claims about the faculty the reputation is completely shot. Which would be sad for the canton's valuable initiatives in university education. Ruedi Arnold

Saas-Fee-Dozent Peter Greenaway.

Pipilotti Rist weiss nichts von der EGS.

Saas-Fee lecturer Peter Greenaway / Pipilotti Rist knows nothing about EGS

<end of excerpt from second article>

- This is a really strong negative claim without any url. Where is the proof of this claim? It mentions CASH and Factiva, but has no actual URL to back it up. -- lotu5

- So I removed it based on the fact that there's no url reference, and someone put it back. Has anyone verified this claim? Who? That's the wikipedia policy for references with no url? Who is supposed to verify this information? -- lotu5

- All I know is that CASH quoted me wrong once and that Paolo Knill in the excerpt above is consistently named Paolo Kill. I'm not sure why we repeatedly need "Jede Woche Information im Klartext zu BUSINESS, ECONOMICS, CASUAL, INVEST... Mehr Infos unter www.cash.ch". Sounds a bit like advertising to me. 83.79.23.156 23:16, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A couple more

From a Lexis-Nexis search:

The Times (London) September 3, 2003, Wednesday SECTION: Features; Times2; 15 LENGTH: 830 words HEADLINE: Me me me. Is this art? BYLINE: David Thompson BODY: DAVID BLAINE IS MORE A CONCEPTUAL ARTIST THAN A MAGICIAN, SAYS DAVID THOMPSON

Tracey Emin, however, belongs to a long line of performers who have cannibalised their own lives for public consumption, scrambling for our attention while offering no significant reason for us to watch. Conceptual artists are, perhaps by definition, prone to this predicament. With images and objects rendered all but irrelevant by a mix of academic doctrine and cynical self-awareness, all that remains is the thinker of the thought, or the perpetrator of the prank.
Famed for allegedly stalking her critics rather than for any particular aesthetic insight, Emin is a "Professor of Confessional Art" at the European Graduate School. Let us hope that her self-preoccupied students have developed rather more fascinating personal lives to publicly excavate. No indignity seems too great for such desperate talents, but then a lack of shame is a defining trait of the textbook egoist.

The Times (London) December 10, 2004, Friday SECTION: Features; Times2; 16 LENGTH: 978 words HEADLINE: Well I'll be Wombled -Tate's festive fare is Swiss cheese BYLINE: Caitlin Moran BODY: "HAVE you got Happy Christmas (War is Over) by John and Yoko?"

I didn't know that [Christian] Marclay is one of the world's most respected avant-garde turntableists -a professor of video collage and sound at the European Graduate School in Switzerland -and just about to oversee a retrospective of his audio and visual work at the Barbican. If I had, I wouldn't be asking him if he has I Wish It Could Be a Wombling Merry Christmas Every Day. Or offering to get him a copy.
By an unfortunate twist of fate, the erroneous impression that I have of Marclay is confirmed by the first conversation I have with him; primarily because he's standing on the Millennium Bridge with a Christmas tree on his head.

The Irish Times March 9, 2005 SECTION: Features; Pg. 13 LENGTH: 1615 words HEADLINE: Science's gender deficit BODY: What is keeping women out of careers in science? Is it lack of aptitude, as the Harvard president has claimed, asks Fionola Meredith

[Larry] Summers based his arguments on behavioural genetics - a school of thought that believes genes determine behaviours and that social relationships have evolved through the genetic transmission of behavioural characteristics. Feminist scientists have described it as "politically, socially and morally dangerous", since it explains and justifies sexual stereotyping and sexual double- standards as natural and inevitable. Donna Haraway, professor of feminist theory and technoscience at the European Graduate School in Switzerland argues that, "the biosocial sciences have not simply been sexist mirrors of our own social world. They have also been tools in the reproduction of that world, both in supplying legitimating ideologies and in enhancing material power."

Aberdeen Evening Express February 22, 2005 SECTION: News; Education; Others; Pg. 14 LENGTH: 140 words HEADLINE: Literary post for professor BODY:

A Leading American figure in literature has taken up a post at Aberdeen University. Christopher Fynsk has joined the university as chair of School of Language and Literature and Modern Thought.
Professor Fynsk is an internationally recognised Heidegger scholar and literary theorist.
He has had a long and distinguished association with the European Graduate School in Switzerland.

-- trialsanderrors 02:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Academic Source for Faculty List

This page:

http://www.beitberl.ac.il/engDataPages/DataPagesPreview.asp?ID=3812

from this school:

"Beit Berl College is the largest academic college in Israel, and its size is expressed not only in the number of students (currently some 7,000) but also in the tremendous range of programs it offers."

Has this faculty list for EGS:

"Giorgio Agamben, Chantal Akerman, Pierre Aubenque, Alain Badiou, Lewis Baltz, Jean Baudrillard, Yve-Alain Bois, Catherine Breillat, Victor Burgin, Judith Butler, Sophie Calle, Hélène Cixous,Diane Davis, Michel Deguy, Manuel DeLanda, Claire Denis, Jacques Derrida, Tracey Emin, Chris Fynsk, Antony Gormley, Peter Greenaway, Durs Grünbein, Werner Hamacher, Barbara Hammer, Donna Haraway, Michael Hardt, Martin Hielscher, Shelley Jackson, Jim Jarmusch, Claude Lanzmann, David Lynch, Paul D. Miller a.k.a. DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid, Carl Mitcham, Jean-Luc Nancy, Hans Ulrich Obrist, Cornelia Parker, Avital Ronell, Wolfgang Schirmacher, Volker Schlöndorff, Michael Schmidt, Hendrik Speck, Bruce Sterling, Sandy Stone, Fred Ulfers, Gregory Ulmer, Agnès Varda, Victor J. Vitanza, Hubertus von Amelunxen, John Waters, Samuel Weber, Krzysztof Zanussi, Siegfried Zielinski and Slavoj Zizek."

Isn't that an "academic source" that's good enough to put the entire faculty list back? -- lotu5 15:07, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Identical ordering clearly indicates that it was swiped directly from EGS. Not exactly evidence for "fact-checking", but you should add the "valuable connection" to the article ~ trialsanderrors 22:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
What? Are you saying that this other college's website is not a scholarly source? Are you the one who gets to decide? Are you saying that we can only add that it has a "link" to this university because they're co-publishing avital ronell's book, and not include the faculty list? why? why don't we email the school in israel to ask about their "fact checking"? ~ lotu5 15:36, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
What is it with this world that common sense has become such a scarce resource? First, an administrative webpage at a university is not a "scholarly source". If I were to apply a strict line only faculty who have published in scholarly publications with the EGS by-line should be included in this list. Thousands of people teach summer courses at various universities without being meaningfully affiliated with that school. Second, there is WP:RS which would qualify your source as a "primary source" making (self-interested) statements about a third party. Third, I wouldn't care as much if I didn't get the impression that some people are trying to snow this article with self-aggrandizing bullshit, rather than write an article with the necessary restraint it requires. It's always the hallmark of the least notable entities to scramble for any minor piece of evidence that might bolster their notability. If you stick with a selection of the five or six people that have the strongest affiliation with the program I'm sure no one would mind. It's only when you start the celebrity whoring that people become suspicious. ~ trialsanderrors 23:10, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Well based on your totally subjective criteria, and to avoid "whoring" (as if there was something wrong with whoring), I added a handful of professors who are listed in the Israeli school's list who are closely affiliated by virtue of having spent time there this summer and taught classes there this summer. ~ lotu5 16:27, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
A secondary source summarizes one or more primary or secondary sources. Secondary sources produced by scholars and published by scholarly presses are carefully vetted for quality control and can be considered authoritative is not subjective. There's nothing wrong with whoring, but WP is the wrong place for it. ~ trialsanderrors 23:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't see why you made this change http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=European_Graduate_School&diff=60211882&oldid=60202862 claiming that the faculty are unsourced, when they are sourced both from the EGS page and from the Beit Berl page above. Isn't the Beit Berl page a secondary source to the EGS page? Its funny that the EGS website is considered a "scholarly" source by google, but its not good enough for Wikipedia. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=%22european+graduate+school%22+media

~ lotu5 12:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blogs for Magazines as Sources?

Since apparently a blog entry is not a valid source, but a magazine is, then what about a blog entry for a magazine? In this case, Caveh Zahedi is referred to as teaching at EGS in Filmmaker Magazine's blog:

http://www.filmmakermagazine.com/blog/2006/06/high-altitude.php

-- lotu5 15:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

See above. You're scrambling. ~ trialsanderrors 23:29, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
For Continuation of this discussion, please refer to "Correcting Obviously Biased Language" below. MatthewStevenCarlos 15:05GMT 28 June 2006

[edit] EGS as Scholarly Source

I added Yve-Alain Bois as a professor with this source http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.europeangraduateschool.com/pdfs/hans-ruff-stahl-intuitive-cyborg.pdf linked from Google Scholar. Hopefully a complete PHD dissertation isn't going to be claimed to be not a valid source. Also added Avital Ronell based on this PhD dissertation: http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.europeangraduateschool.com/pdfs/joan-grossman-blackout.pdf,

-- lotu5 12:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

A dissertation search on UMI yielded no results. ~ trialsanderrors 02:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Correcting obviously biased language

I changed

'attend "theoretical workshops" in Switzerland, during which they may meet'

to

'attend two three-week summer seminars in Switzerland, during which they attend classes with visiting lecturers'.

Where did this term theoretical workshops come from and why say that they "may meet", which implies a possible short contact, not a 3 day seminar. ~ lotu5 13:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

So what is it, three days or three weeks? Outside sources discussing the seminar format? ~ trialsanderrors 02:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
It is a 3 week seminar composed of 2-3 day classes.

This entry in Filmmaker Magazine's blog discusses the format:

http://www.filmmakermagazine.com/blog/2004/03/european-graduate-school.php

I still argue that a blog for a magazine is as good as an article in a magazine. It must be reviewed by editors and the magazine is an entity can be questioned about reliability of information, not just some random person. ~ lotu5 22:14, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

How long until you see what the problem with your efforts is? The very fact that you have to strain to find marginal tidbits of information on fringe websites is just further evidence for the lowly stature of this institution. If this is a veritable academic institution as it pretends to be its researchers write academic articles with EGS as their affiliation, UMI collects its dissertations, the canton accredits it as an institution, reputable news outlets profile it. You wouldn't have to scramble and hold up gushy blog entries on a film maker magazine to even establish the names on the faculty roster. They would just be out there easily available via a variety of credible sources. And no, WP:RS clearly says blog = no good. ~ trialsanderrors 03:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


In fact, the WP:RS is not as narrow as 'blog = no good' .. it is a *guide* ("Although it may be advisable to follow it, it is not policy.") which states:
" [...] blogs are largely not acceptable as sources. Exceptions may be when a well-known, professional researcher
writing within his field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material.
In some cases, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as their work has been previously published by credible,
third-party publications, and they are writing under their own names, and not a pseudonym."
- Therefore one might reasonably argue (as it seems lotu5 is doing) that reference to a blog by someone such as Bruce Sterling, especially when connected with a notable publication (such as 'Wired'), is within WP:RS guidelines. (I do agree with Trialanderrors that the most incontrovertable 'seeming' sources are more 'objective' .. although it is really very easy to hack academic journals and newspapers <-- now there is a worthwhile topic for discussion: 'epistemology in a post-modern milieu'.
- In specific regards to TaE's statement "UMI collects its dissertations" .. UMI is a subscription service. There are a variety of reasons that an institution may not desire to employ/engage with such a company, including a committment of 'Open Access to Knowledge'. Such companies generally charge a fee to the academic institution and then own the distribution rights to the material (this is how much copyrighted material became microfilmed, for instance). Small institutions (such as EGS) often do not have the funds to purchase the service, nor wish to loose control over material distribution. It is important (I feel) to remember that not all information is readily available (particularly to internet searches) - and that this does not dimminish the authenticity of an organisation or information. To quote from the UMI website:
"In this digital age, it’s easy to forget that not so long ago, the vast majority of books and publications simply weren’t available to most scholars and researchers, let alone the general public. Major research collections were held by only a handful of libraries worldwide, so accessing the most important scholarly works of the day could be a lengthy and cost-prohibitive pursuit." [ www.umi.com/division/aboutus/ ]
- This ties into another of TaE's statements: "the canton accredits it as an institution". The problem here is that the canton does not make these documents available online. I happen to have seen the documents in Switzerland, and the EGS administration could post images of these documents, but what fails is a test of trust. Even if these documents were posted on a government web site, such is relatively easy to hack. So the overarching question is again one of epistemology in the Post-Modern age: how does one (even a 'one' such as Wikipedia) proceed when nothing is ultimately verifyable, especially if one is not inclined to trust?
- It appears to me that the concensus developing around this article is the need for 'more objective' (though not 'completely verifyable') information about EGS circulating around internet accessible domains. This is something to which EGS might wisely devote financial and human resources. However, may I suggest that we not be overly biased in favour of information that can be obtained from our computer terminals hundreds or thousands of miles away from physical primary documentation. We still exist in an age where if one really desires certain information one must make the physical journey to it. If one is not willing to make that journey, then I think it only reasonable that they must defer their judgement about the existence and quality of the object in question to a person who has been there. Trust, at the root, is a practical convenience. MatthewStevenCarlos 15:05GMT 28 June 2006. PostScript: Thank you TaE for your diligent work on this article.
First, thanks for actually basing the discussion on WP's scope and policies. Second, WP:RS says that Personal websites, blogs, and other self-published or vanity publications should not be used as secondary sources. That is, they should not be used as sources of information about a person or topic other than the owner of the website. So I'm ok with DJ Spooky saying that he is "faculty" at EGS (quotes are his), and I'm being far less hard-assed on this than others who would just shoot it down. But a blogger saying person X teaches at EGS is clearly not admissible. On the accreditation issue, the EGS websites seem to have come in line with what the official sources say, namely that the canton did not accredit EGS as an institution (which puts the overuse of "professor" for guest lecturers on a very shaky basis), but accredits the degrees. Any claims about non-cantonal accreditation I will carefully test for proper thrid-party sourcing. Third, I have repreated asked current, former and wannabe students of EGS to provide sources that establish that EGS has notability. So far the results still far off the mark unambiguously fail my T&E:510 test. In addition, there are still big gaps between what some editors haave asserted as the truth, how the school represents itself, and what is actually unambigiously verifiable information. I have to repeat, it still baffles me that a place with such an interesting roster of lecturers has such a small media footprint, but as long as this footprint isn't widened I won't let interested parties turn WP into a advert for the school. ~ trialsanderrors 21:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Program Website Removal

Why was the link to http://egs.edu , which actually includes the faculty list, removed from the article repeatedly?

-- lotu5 12:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Go to egsuniveristy.org and you'll find: The European Graduate School www.egsuniversity.org is a graduate and postgraduate degree-granting university with two divisions:
Arts, Health and Society: www.egsuniversity.ch
Media and Communications: www.egs.edu

egsuniversity.org is the school website, not egs.edu. ~ trialsanderrors 20:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References for Controversy section

These were established through news database searches during the last AFD - see section above. These can be verified by any person with access to Factiva or possibly other news databases such as LexisNexis and News Bank. These are widely available in university and corporate environments. Offline references are acceptable in Wikipedia - book references, even obscure book references, are common for instance. Bwithh 22:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On Zizek's Weltwoche statement

Slavoj Zizek claims he never approves his interviews and said he must have been misunderstood in the Weltwoche interview. I wrote a letter to the Weltwoche editor, which was never printed, correcting inaccuracies in Zizek's statement.

The points I corrected were:
-Zizek does a 90min lecture each morning AND each afternoon. The other 90min is usually reserved for Alain Badiou. This makes a total of 6 hours of seminars a day.
-One cannot finish a master's or doctoral thesis if one had only a few weeks per year for one's continued education. It is not a speedy certification either, since many students spend more than the prescribed 3 (MA) or 4 (PhD) years writing their thesis. Many come back to EGS for more credits than those required.
-The fact that students cannot graduate unless they have paid their fees is not different from other universities.

212.243.172.69 10:24, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Where does he claim that? ~ trialsanderrors 17:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
He told me in person, off the record. On the record (i.e. video) I only have a statement where he says he never read that particular interview. ~ 83.79.23.156 23:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
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