Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Archive13

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Archiving 2 Barnstar 3 Just wondering... 4 Straw poll on Assembly/Council name 5 Proposed Programs 6 Welcoming 7 The more on Esperanza section 8 Thought on Charter Amending 9 Could Esperanza help with Requests for feedback? 10 Next AC meeting 11 Did you forget Jimbo Wales??? 12 Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Governance 13 A Project Barnstar for Esperanza? 13.1 Discuss Barnstar Status 13.2 Support 13.3 Oppose 13.4 Neutral 14 Kindness Campaign 15 Just wanted to throw this past someone 16 Campaigns Wikia 17 non-member with a question 18 2 questions 19 Help needed with dispute 20 Fun new things and a straw poll 21 I need an opinion 22 Problem with welcome template 23 Please fix your newsletter spamming system

Archiving

I noticed this page had reached a massive 1000kb so I decided to archive it. If there are any still active comments, please feel free to revive them, cheers —Minun ^Spiderman 11:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

1000? It was 99 :) — FireFox 12:41, 25 July '06

Sorry, I meant to say 100, my mistake —Minun ^Spiderman 14:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Thought so :P — FireFox 14:25, 25 July '06

Barnstar

Wow, I think Esperanza is great, you all deserve this, if you are a member of the Esperanza, please take it

Just wondering...

I recently joined Esperanza and I would like to start helping out. However, I have no idea where to begin. Could somebody please help me out? Thanks! --Evan Robidoux 03:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

You could try participating in one of Esperanza's current programs. —Mets501 (talk) 06:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

And welcome to Esperanza! Mets501 is right, the programs are a good place to start. Or, if none of them take your fancy, you are encouraged to just spread the kindness, there is no program that tells you to do that. :) Just by being a kind, helpful wikipedian, you are helping out a great deal. Cheers -- Banes 08:32, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

As Banes says, a very warm welcome to Esperanza! I would suggest that by looking at the alerts page, and by giving anyone who feels stressed or unwell a little message of encouragement or a thank you for helping Wikipedia, you would be helping out the entire community a great deal! Being kind and helpful to the community in this way means a lot. Oh, and also, enjoy yourself while you're here!! One happy editor is sure to make another happy, and then that editor will, in turn make another happy. Think where we could end up ;) Thε Halo ^Θ 10:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Welcome! <selling program> Try the Barnstar Brigade, we are kind, welcoming and a pro-inclusive group of editors who tell valued editors how much their contributions are appreciated!</selling> Highway ^{Return to Oz...} 15:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Straw poll on Assembly/Council name

Now that elections are done and over with, it's time to take care of deciding whether the Esperanza Council should go by "Assembly" or "Council". Through the previous discussions, it was decided that a straw poll (per Wikipedia:Esperanza/Charter#B. Amending the Charter and Polling) would be the easiest way to understand. Maybe voting is evil, maybe it isn't, but regardless, here it is!

The poll will run for a week, and will therefore end on 3 August 2006 at 00:00 UTC (unless I've gotten this wrong, which I often do). Any current Esperanza member (as of when I post this) is welcome to vote. Rather than supporting and opposing, just support whichever option you choose.

Additional comments are welcome, but please take a look at all the previous discussions to see what has already been thought about. And as always, I'm sure everyone will be lovely and civil, as we Esperanzans are. -- Natalya 00:22, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This straw poll has concluded.

Assembly

1. -- Assembly sounds more inclusive to me, somehow. -- Banes 07:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
2. -- The council reminds me of a City council, and local government is not what we're going for. Assembly just sounds nicer. Thε Halo ^Θ 08:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
3. -- As I mentioned in the previous discussion, assembly sounds a little more inviting, whereas a council seems like it could kind of rule over an organization more than advise them. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 23:16, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
4. -- I agree with Banes on this. Kukini 01:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
5. Highway ^{Return to Oz...} 15:05, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Council

1. Coredesat talk. ^_^ 05:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC) - I originally voted "assembly", but if there are only nine seven people, then "council" is probably more appropriate.

   • There are actually seven people, but I don't think that changes the logic you used. Just letting you know. :) -- Natalya 13:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

2. —Celestianpower ^háblame 09:57, 28 July 2006 (UTC) (per my reasoning in the aforementioned discussion)
3. — FireFox ^(talk) _{10:38, 28 July '06}
4. —Minun ^Spiderman 12:39, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
5. - or maybe "The Great and Mighty Esperenzial Powers That Be" ;-) Jfingers88 23:18, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
6. • The Giant Puffin • 14:58, 29 July 2006 (UTC) - Assembly reminds me of the UN, which has a lot more than 7 members in it
7. - We have used Council for awhile, and I like it. Assembly sounds like a larger group (my opionion), also per Giant Puffin. WikieZach| talk 02:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Comments

1. I'm not really sure it needs a name. Can't we just call them "chairpeople" or somesuch, and instead of saying the Council/Assembly is responsible for something, we say the chairpeople are? - CheNuevara 11:35, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

   Surely 'chairpeople' is a name, in a similar sense to Council/Assembly? — FireFox ^(talk) _{12:42, 28 July '06}

   Okay, so I didn't word that in the most stelllar way. What I meant was that the group may not need a name, but we can call the individuals something. To me, that sounds a lot more friendly. - CheNuevara 12:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

2. Go with something other than council or assembly. Maybe Senate, Congress, Board of Directors, Group of People Ranked Highly in Esperanza... I like Board of Directors of Esperanza... Viva La Vie Boheme 23:34, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

   "The Board", perhaps? - • The Giant Puffin • 21:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

3. Either is fine with me. --Fang Aili ^talk 13:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
4. Oppose all. I don't really understand the need for a Council/Assembly. What do they actually do? Make high profile policy decisions? Or is it just another line of esoteric bureaucracy? Policy decisions IMO should be made solely by polling the community as a whole. Why should a bunch of people be "higher" than the others. All this "Charter", "Assembly", "Advisory Council" are making Esperanza less welcoming and more an organisation for the élite few. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| ŗ 3 $ |-| ţ |-|) 13:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

   • The council/assembly are here to approve any change or suggestion that would affect Esperanza as a whole. I see where you're coming from about the polling of every Esperanian, but I think that, in itself, would cause us problems. The ammount of proposed programs would mean that we have an amazing ammount of things to vote for, and that would take up a lot of our time, time which I personally feel, could be put to better use. These are just my thoughts on the subject, and maybe it would be better to get a council/assembly member to comment? :) Thε Halo ^Θ 14:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

   Proposed programs would not require all Esperanzians to be polled; why even the recent elections did not see all the Esperanzians turning out to vote, far from it in fact; neither did this poll. We could have a specific deadline, in which Esperanzians could vote and the results at the end of the deadline, whatever they be, would be accepted by the community as a whole; there would be no need for a (redundant IMO) enforcing body, which promotes inequality and a sense of "status" in Esperanza. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| ŗ 3 $ |-| ţ |-|) 08:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you to everyone who participated in this poll. Albeit with moderate amounts of participation, it has concluded, and the Esperanza Assembly/Council will henceforth continue to be called the Esperanza Council. -- Natalya 11:24, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Proposed Programs

There are alot of proposed programs (see here); that have yet to be looked at by the Council/Assembly, see above. I was thinking of having a straw poll (VOTING IS NOT EVIL) of a few of the programs. This would lower volume on that page, and possibly start some 'fun' new programs for the good of Esperanza. What do u think? WikieZach| talk 02:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

(Note, I am not speaking for the entire leadership here, just off the top of my own head) I was thinking that the leadership could go through that list at our next meeting and see if there were any that we felt should be implemented immediately, or should be archived as ideas that we shouldn't do for the time being. If there were any that we thought were good ideas but needed more feedback, perhaps we could start a discussion and/or vote on this page, but voting in general takes up a fair amount of time and resources. Just my two cents, though...other comments about this are welcome. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 07:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I think EWS23 read my mind, because that's one of the things planned for when the council/assembly has its next meeting, which should hopefully be in the not too distant future. :) Adding comments and thoughts about any programs at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Proposals that seem promising is a great way to support them. -- Natalya 11:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an Esperanza member, but my two cents are that we should ask all Esperanza members (not just the council members) to look at the proposals page and give their comments on a few proposals, possibly through a straw poll. However, only the Council can determine whether there is consensus and implement any of the proposals. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 11:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

It does actually work that way, roughly. The proposals are there to be commented on by pretty much anyone. If it seems (no polls usually) that there is a consensus that a certain idea is a good one, a council/assembly member will implement it. It's all pretty free and open, plenty of space for boldness. :) -- Banes 13:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Welcoming

Looking through the history of the members page, it seems we are not welcoming everyone who joins, or maybe it takes a few days for someone to get around to it. Can someone point me to the Esperanza welcoming templates? NoSeptember 09:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

{{subst:EA-welcome|~~~~}}, but it looks like it might need an update first ;D --james^(talk) 10:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

You could make a custom one in your userspace if you want —Minun ^{Spiderman • Review Me} 11:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Its been updated now, cheers —Minun ^{Spiderman • Review Me} 11:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I like to use this template that I keep stored in my user area...

{{subst:User:Kukini/Welcome}}

Feel free to borrow it or just paste in the above on any user talk page. It should also put your signature on it automatically.Kukini 21:24, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The more on Esperanza section

I have removed this section from the main project page for the following reasons: 1) It was never intended to go on the project page, and was only one of several posts that I made at the time, 2) Much of the information is now out of date, the non-existence of similar organization for example, 3) I no longer believe it, and it gives the impression that I do, and 4) I am no longer a member of Esperanza. Please, feel free to integrate any of the text that is not out of date or that you still find relevant back into the main project page, or even specify in the attribution that it is a past rather than a present comment. However, to me the present order, is unacceptable. Thanks. -JCarriker 12:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a shame to see you say some of the above, JC, and it makes me hope that you're not too...how best to put this...upset with the current incarnation of Esperanza. I realise that what you have said may be a technical decision, but to hear you 'no longer believe' in those great words is saddening, not just for me personally, but I'd like to think for the whole Esperanza. It makes me wonder, just where did Esperanza go wrong in your eyes? Thε Halo ^Θ 21:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC) There is no reply needed, these are just my thoughts.

JC, there truley is no need to reply, I've been back through the archives, and seen some of the problems that occured in Esperanza's early days. I urge anyone, who, like me, has never experienced esperanza in its early days to go back and read about it. There are a lot of good ideas that we could learn from there. Thε Halo ^Θ 22:11, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

• Actually I do need to clear up one ambiguity. I mean the order of the main page, as it existed with the More on Esperanza section that I removed, not the political order. Thanks. -JCarriker 23:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Thought on Charter Amending

In the case in which major changes (how many users on council/term of admin. gen) are considered; we should hold a referendum, in which two-thirds OF THOSE VOTING, must say 'Yes' for it to pass. It should then be ENACTED once the voting is over. The referendum would take place along with council seats. Please consider, this could help Esperanza alot! WikieZach| talk 23:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

If we do this, I think an announcement about the referendum should go out to members to allow active folk an opportunity to think about the issue and have a say. Kukini 00:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course! There should be notification say, about a week or two before the vote, to allow time to talk about the issue. There would be talk when it is introduced in the first place. This brings up a new question, how do you get a referendum to happen? I think the Council should approve it or reject it; by a majority vote. WikieZach| talk 01:56, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly disagree with referenda at all - it's bad enough having to do it for elections. Referenda and notification for these referenda just create more and more layers of bureaucracy, obscuring our goal as Esperanza.

Just straw polling also means that only those who are active in Esperanza or watch this talkpage get to hear about the !vote. These are the sorts of people we want to be deciding things, not those that signed up and haven't been back since. Those that are active will know much more about what is best for Esperanza as a whole.

Thanks and regards, —Celestianpower ^háblame 08:50, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm tending to agree with Celestianpower. We really (myself included) need less talk and more action. -- Banes 10:52, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Aye. Having too many elections is counter-productive, and we started to move away from having one for everything. At one point, we will begin (if we haven't already) to be perceived by other users as an organization that dedicates itself to just voting, which is the last thing we want. Titoxd^(?!?) 17:22, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Could Esperanza help with Requests for feedback?

Although I'm not a member of Esperanza, I wonder whether Esperanza could help with this - if it can, I might consider joining (maybe when I'm more experienced). As a side note, I wish to thank Richardshusr for his encouragement when I was considering leaving.

Several months ago, I created Requests for feedback, an initiative for new editors to seek feedback on new articles they write (or major edits they make to existing articles). This feedback will help them understand their strengths and weaknesses as an editor - for example, they may be excellent with screenshots and NPOV, but weak in referencing and linking. Hopefully they will use the feedback they receive to improve their editing skills and the articles they make.

I created RFF after trying to get feedback on two articles I wrote, Google Groups and Homerun (film), but finding established processes such as Peer Review and Requests for Expansion not meeting my needs. Traffic is growing and we currently receive a couple of requests for feedback from new editors daily. It seems my idea is popular among newcomers, and I intend to develop it into an established Wikipedia process.

Currently, there are only 4 Wikipedians who regularly respond to requests for feedback posted on RFF: Hildanknight, Tangotango, Saxifrage and Imoeng. We will need more regular participants in this project; hopefully experienced Wikipedians who are familiar with Wikipedia process and friendly towards newcomers.

Many members of Esperanza are likely to be "experienced Wikipedians who are familiar with Wikipedia process and friendly towards newcomers". Therefore, I am posting here asking such Wikipedians to check out RFF, and, should they be interested, watch the RFF page and regularly respond to requests for feedback posted there.

In addition, I would appreciate advice from Esperanza members on how to attract such Wikipedians to respond to requests posted to RFF, and how to make RFF an established Wikipedia process. You may be interested in a RFF-related discussion on the village pump, and some ideas for promoting RFF which I posted on RFF's talk page.

Esperanza could consider a proposal to help Wikipedians who have ideas for new Wikipedia processes (such as RFF) develop their ideas into established Wikipedia processes. My positive experience with Esperanza member Richardshusr prompted me to liase with Esperanza, and I await positive replies from Esperanza members.

--J.L.W.S. The Special One 05:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out, I've added the page to my watchlist and encourage others to do the same! Regarding the promotion: in my experience, pages like this can suddenly snowball in such a way that you can no longer provide the 'service' you're aiming for. Examples are the helpme template and the admin coaching project: after a rather slow start, their use almost 'exploded' and there were shortages of people to keep up with the requests. My suggestion, but perhaps I'm too careful :), is to first make sure you have a steady flow of contributors, before promoting use of it on a large scale. --JoanneB 16:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

If there is interest, I'm sure a program could be created that directs Esperanza users to respond for Requests for Feedback. I could see something where participants keep track of Requests for Feedback that they have done, logging them like barnstars are logged at the barnstar brigade. I'm just musing, of course.  :) If there is more interest, anyone is welcome to add something related as a proposal. -- Natalya 22:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. When RFF receives a barrage of requests for feedback, we will urgently need experienced Wikipedians who are familiar with process and friendly to newcomers, to regularly respond to the requests. Therefore, I think we need to attract such Wikipedians first, before we advertise RFF and try to make it an established Wikipedia process. Of course, I would appreciate advice on making RFF an established Wikipedia process, although I may not carry it out until we have enough Wikipedians who regularly respond to requests. Currently, I need more advice on getting experienced Wikipedians to respond to requests. JoanneB and Natalya (and Richardshusr), I don't doubt that you are familiar with process and friendly to newcomers, so will you regularly respond to requests posted on RFF?

I like that suggestion, Natalya. However, I was thinking along more general lines. When a Wikipedian has a good idea (for me, my good idea is RFF), Esperanza could possibly help them develop their ideas into established Wikipedia processes, by offering support and advice. Many good ideas go unspotted and unfulfilled, and if Esperanza helps spot and fulfil good ideas, it will play an integral role in Wikipedia development, thus establishing our status. For now, Esperanza could help RFF develop into an established Wikipedia process. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 05:08, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Next AC meeting

The next Advisory Council meeting will be taking place a week from today, on 13 August 2006. Anyone is welcome to add items for discussion at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Advisory Committee Meeting August 2006#New items. This is also where the log will be placed after the meeting.

Additionally, please continue discussions on any proposed programs that look promising! -- Natalya 19:59, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Did you forget Jimbo Wales???

Just to let you know that it is Jimbo Wales's birthday today (August 7)! You may wish him Happy Birthday here!!!--Ed 13:59, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks like a lot of people sucking up to me. Philc _T^E_C^I 23:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Governance

As suggested, the new section of Esperanza talk, Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Governance now exists. All discussions on the governance of Esperanza can occur there. Anytime there is a significant issue that needs the attention of all Esperanza members, it will of course be brought up here also. I look forward to the main talk page having a much nicer flow and Esperanza feel now.  :) -- Natalya 00:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

A Project Barnstar for Esperanza?

Hey you all I had an idea for Esperanza to recognize outstanding members of our group.

Here are two images I made up for a possible barnstar that would be for Esperanza members who go out of there way to uphold the values and spirit of Esperanza.

Here are the images

and

Here is the ribbon that would go with it Æon ^{Insane Ward} 05:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

What do you all think? Good Idea or not. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 01:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd say so. The more awards the better! Always makes people happy. The Ungovernable Force 04:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Ungovernable! This should also help to encourge other Esperanzans to. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 05:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

We already had one: --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| ŗ 3 $ |-| ţ |-|) 15:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought that was only for the userpage award. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 16:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought so too. A new one sounds like a potentially nice idea, but I'm not speaking for the rest of the council in any way. :) -- Banes 18:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I like the green on green one, you can never have too much green ;). NoSeptember 19:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The green is good, but I would prefer a transparent background like all the others. — FireFox ^(talk) _{19:19, 8 August '06}

I could redo it. would not be to difficult. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 20:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I've got nothing against the current versions (they look really nice, good work), but it's just me – I always prefer barnstars to have transparent backgrounds :P — FireFox ^(talk) _{20:11, 8 August '06}

Its cool I will attempt a redo and see what I can do Æon ^{Insane Ward} 20:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Here is a redo. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 20:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Lovely. Definitely my personal favourite. — FireFox ^(talk) _{20:42, 8 August '06}

Ok cool lol I aim to please. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 20:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I like the dark green one best, though it would look better if the black hole in the middle was filled with light green. --Fang Aili ^talk 20:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The black hole is dark green same has the background. It might appear black due to how dark the green is. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 21:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

All of them are lovely. :) If the light green with the transparent background is too light, what about having a thin dark green border around the light green star? Don't know if it's possible, or if it will even look good, but it might. -- Natalya 20:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I could try it, might be a little difficult, let me get back to you. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 20:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

No worries, I was just throwing out a suggestion.  :) What we have is already fantastic. -- Natalya 20:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Done and posted at the Bottom Æon ^{Insane Ward} 21:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity (and this may have been discussed before), when did Esperanza decide on that @ sign in its logo? I think it looks kind of weird, and it's confusing because it means "at". --Fang Aili ^talk 21:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Not sure it has been that way for I think the last several months. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 21:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Here is the updated image. It has a dark green outline now. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 21:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Cool!

Fang Aili, it looks like the original "E@" logo was uploaded a few months after Esperanza's conception. However, it's shown up earlier than that: see Wikipedia_talk:Esperanza/Archive03#Images. Hopefully someone who was part of Esperanza from near the beginning with know; else, I will drop Essjay a line and ask. -- Natalya 22:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The logo's image page should answer the question of its origin.- JCarriker 22:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

ah the @ came from Sham Æon ^{Insane Ward} 23:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

That's really cool. Thanks, JCarriker. -- Natalya 12:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok so if you want this barnstar (The green outline one) sign below Æon ^{Insane Ward} 22:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Support

• Æon ^{Insane Ward} 22:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
• Thε Halo ^Θ 23:34, 8 August 2006 (UTC) (Great to see you back btw Aeon! ;)
• I like it! —Mets501 (talk) 01:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
• May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| ŗ 3 $ |-| ţ |-|) 11:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
• -- Natalya 12:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

  D --Terence Ong _{(Chat | Contribs)} 16:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

• Why not have a project Barnstar, people deserve to be thanked! I was flattered when I received a Barnstar last October! Wikiwoohoo 19:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

A poll for this really isn't necessary

1. I love the idea, and the product itself, so support its use. However, we really don't need a poll: consensus shows above that there is support for it - couldn't we have left it at that? Plus, who would've opposed? Regards, —Celestianpower ^háblame 13:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I thought an Esperanza barnstar currently exists? Or are you voting to change the design of the barnstar? If I got the wrong idea by reading this discussion, please excuse me, as I'm not a member of Esperanza, although I will consider joining in the future if Esperanza helps me with my Requests for feedback idea. --J.L.W.S. The Special One 13:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't particularly like it, so I won't vote one way or the other. I still think the "@" sign is weird. (I know it's been around a long time so I'm not going to try to change it, but I don't see any reason for using an @ sign when a regular "a" will do just as well, and the @ sign has its own meaning.) Also the dark spot in the middle of the barnstar is distracting, too. But I give Aeon credit for doing this in general. Cheers, all. --Fang Aili ^talk 13:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

thanks Celestianpower I will submit the Barnstar so it could be listed today. J.L.W.S that Star is for the User Page award that Esperanza gives out. Thanks Fang Aili for the comments. And thanks all for the support. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 14:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The Star has been submitted to the Barnstar and award proposals page. Thanks again you all. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 14:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Discuss Barnstar Status

I need everyone's opinion on what this barnstar will be. Will it be in WikiProject awards or a PUA? Please place you opinions on the discussion page. Thank you very much.--Ed 16:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I would say Project (Wasn't sure which catergory to request it in) Æon ^{Insane Ward} 16:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Support for it being a Project Barnstar over Personal User Award (Right now it is going up as a possible PUA). Æon ^{Insane Ward} 16:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Support

1. . Æon ^{Insane Ward} 16:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
2. . Support:Wikiproject awards are a "higher status" than PUA--Ed 17:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

If we're to put our opinions on the discussion page, then why is there a poll here? I think this is another pointless poll, especially since it is duplicated elsewhere where it actually matters. Jfingers88 18:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Lets not get poll-happy, here! Celestianpower is right, there really isn't a need for a poll when there has already been agreement. Polls are good for official business and when the general feeling can't be figured out by discussion. Discussion has let us know that it's clear that there is general agreement that the barnstar is a great idea, and it's likely better to discussion Project Barnstar/Personal User Award status here or at the barnstar proposal page then to poll on it here. Regardless of the evilness status of voting, discussion is much better. -- Natalya 21:13, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Gotcha! Æon ^{Insane Ward} 21:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment:We put this discussion here because there was no responses on the barnstar proposal page. We just need to know if you will accept this in as Wikiproject awards or PUA.--Ed^{talk c E}02:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

By the looks of it consensus is Project Barnstar. Unless I'm mistaken Æon ^{Insane Ward} 21:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the passing of proposed barnstars, but perhaps a bit more time should be given for those who have not had a chance to respond? -- Natalya 21:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Barnstar approved
Sent to Wikipedia:Wikiproject awards.--Ed 22:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Cool, that was faster than I thought! Æon ^{Insane Ward} 22:13, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Kindness Campaign

I just checked out the talk page in the Kindness Campaign. I'm relatively new here, but I think it would be a great idea if we could rediscuss cooperation between the two groups. I'll have to talk to the Kindness Campaign, though.--Ed 15:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

If it looks like there's still interest in expanding this idea, I'm sure we can convince KnowledgeOfSelf (the recently returned former Esperanzian who initially proposed this idea) to stop on by and give more thoughts to help out. -- Natalya 21:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

That would be great! Thank you so much.--Ed 21:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I have talked to Kylu, who is from the Kindness Campaign. You can see our other discussion here.----Ed^{talk c E} 15:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Cooperation is great, though I'm a bit confused as to what the joint venture would be? As far as I'm aware, KC was just a "Please try to be nice to people, and spread the message" whereas Esperanza seems to be a lot more formal and organized. I'd tend to think KC would include all Esperanzans by default, that you're all just being more organized and efficient in your being nice to others. Tell me if that makes any sense at all. c.c ~Kylu (u|t) 19:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

KnowledgeOfSelf's reply on the topic. -- Natalya 21:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I have just read KOS's response, and I think that the idea of colloboration between the two groups is good. Yes, Esperanza is more "governmental" and the Kindness Campaign is less "active in conversing" with each other. However, I think that if we could promote our one true goal of appreciating those hard-working editors, then this could work. In fact, the 2 groups are similar already, the Barnstar Brigade and the Kindness Campaign both try to give out barnstars. Just a thought.----Ed^{talk c E} 21:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Just wanted to throw this past someone

Take a look at this template:

Do y'all think it's really necessary to have articles on every single fictional weapon in this anime series? Some of them just list their "stats" which are pretty much meaningless unless you watch the show. I'd like to get some feedback before nominating the lot for AfD--maybe there was some kind of consensus before. Thanks all. --Fang Aili ^talk 17:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Support: Go ahead. I clicked on one of the articles, and they're not even long enough to deserve article status. Unless someone wants to resolve that, go ahead for Afd.--Ed 17:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

((User:Richardshusr/Oppose)) Funny. My experience is different. I clicked on four or five articles at random and each of them came up with several screenfuls of information that I never wanted to know. My original reaction to Fang Aili's query was "Good God, no. Why an article on each "weapon"? On the other hand, if there really is enough information to provide several screenfuls on four or five weapons, then something other than a wholesale AfD is called for. Perhaps the article series is just in need of expansion or, failing that, reorganization to merge stubby articles into bigger ones.

I have my doubts as to the value of this sort of information in an encyclopedia but I suspect that this is a battle that is far larger than this one series of articles and also a battle that would not be winnable.

--Richard 17:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

And this has what exactly to do with Esperanza? ;-)

(Somewhat more seriously: without necessarily taking a stance on what the best arrangement for our coverage of these topics would be—a great deal of merging is probably appropriate, given the small sizes of the articles—I would point out that Gundam is hardly your run-of-the-mill series, and any nomination which fails to take that into account is likely to fail.) Kirill Lokshin 17:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't have anything to do with Esperanza other than that you're friendly people I can ask when I don't know where else to go. I didn't want to bring it up at AfD without knowing what the heck I was talking about. Maybe I'll just merge or prod the ones that are very short; I know nothing about Gundam. --Fang Aili ^talk 17:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I would be VERY carefull on AfDing a buch of articles like the, merger would be better. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 17:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

These guys are helping us reach 2,000,000 articles. Woo Hoo. (just kidding) NoSeptember 17:36, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Is there a WikiProject for this?? For a series this big, there has to be a WikiProject on this. Contact them first, and discuss your issues with them.--Ed 17:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

There's Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga. I'll talk to them. --Fang Aili ^talk 18:31, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Campaigns Wikia

I came across this Campaigns Wikia a couple days ago and it really needs some good, dedicated people to help it grow. Sign up and help out! Jfingers88 17:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The Esperanza Talk Page is a place to discuss changing/improving Esperanza, not promoting other Wikis, no matter how amazing. Viva La Vie Boheme

That's true to an extent, but it's also a place to get support for good ideas and positive things. :) -- Natalya 01:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

VLVB, see the anime thing above. Is that not non-Esperanzial? Jfingers88 18:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

non-member with a question

One of the requirements to join is 150 edits. Is this edits specifically of wikipedia articles, or ANY pages? Thanks! Alexandermiller 06:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I would think any pages, but I'm pretty new to this group. In other words, I'm not really sure. But if you sign up and later on others disagree, it shouldn't be too hard to remove your name. It's hard to mess up wikipedia beyond repair you know. So it won't really hurt to just sign up if you have over 150 edits. Maybe wait for one other person to weigh in though, just to be safe. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 06:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Like the above reply, I think it means any pages excluding your user page and talk pages —Minun ^{Spiderman • Review Me} 12:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, it does not exclude anything specifically. As with most (or all) Wikipedia standards, this requirement should be seen in its context. Someone with 151 edits does not automatically make a better Esperanza member than someone with 149 - it's not a magic number, and therefore the exact number or the distribution of those edits shouldn't be a big deal. However, it's important to keep in mind why the requirement was set in the past: Esperanza is all about reaching out, and many of us believe that you can't really do that yet if you're new and have no idea of what it's like to be a Wikipedia editor yet. So from that view, if you have 125 user space edits because you've been working on your user page for ages and 25 edits to Wikipedia articles, I'd suggest to wait a bit :) --JoanneB 14:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed! sometimes it is all about what is edited not how much is edited. Æon ^{Insane Ward} 20:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

You reached more than required. Click here to find your editcount. Your finally eligible!!!--Ed^{talk c E} 21:36, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

2 questions

1. What are the requirements?I'm already added to the list.
2. What is the Esperanza userbox?

--Cute 1 4 u 19:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello there! Esperanza's membership requirements are to have been at Wikipedia at least two weeks, to have about 150 edits, and to want to uphold the values of Esperanza. It looks like you are all set with that!

You can find two different types of Esperanza userboxes at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Images. While you're at it, be sure to check out some of Esperanza's programs! -- Natalya 20:10, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Help needed with dispute

Hi all,

I have been embroiled in a dispute with User:Daborhe over an unencyclopedic, POV edit that he/she has insisted on making to the Expulsion of Germans after World War II article. Please consult the edit history] of that article to see what I am talking about. Also, please peruse the sections in Talk:Expulsion of Germans after World War II titled "Reversion of User:Daborhe's contribution". "Second Reversion of User:Daborhe's contribution" and "Third Reversion of User:Daborhe's contribution".

I have tried to conduct myself as honorably and civilly as I can. However, the fact is that I've hit 3RR on this article and it's time for me to look for "a different way" to solve the problem. I intend to follow WP:DR via RFC, mediation, etc. At the moment, I'm frustrated because I seem to be unable to make any headway in explaining to User:Daborhe why his edits are unacceptable.

If you have the time and interest to look into this, perhaps you can help. Thank you.

--Richard 06:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

We don't take sides in disputes. I suggest you take your request to some place that might, like an administrator. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 06:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

True, we don't take sides, but we can be supportive to all parties involved. I'm sorry to hear that problems have escalated in the conflict. If you don't want to go through as burueaucratic dispute resolution, mediations through the Mediation Cabal can be realy helpful, and are more informal.

For yourself, if it's really getting frustrating, take a couple hours or a half day away from it; edit something fun, edit something mindless, or don't edit at all! I'm sure you'll come back refreshed and relaxed, and will be able to bring new ideas to the discussion. -- Natalya 15:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm a cablist need my help? Æon ^{Insane Ward} 16:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all, an update on the dispute, a third editor with a more aggressive style than mine reverted the objectionable text in question and so, for the moment, the issue is quiescent unless the original editor decides to continue pushing his POV. The user is apparently a new user and has run into other issues on other articles as evidenced by his/her talk page.

To User:The Ungovernable Force, good point. I'm not sure if I really wanted Esperanzians to "take sides" in the dispute. To the extent that I did, you're right, that's not what Esperanza is for. But, as User:Natalya pointed out, Esperanza is about supporting stressed-out users which is what I was last night. I think I was more looking for advice on how to conduct a stressful dispute against a POV-pushing editor who is new to Wikipedia.

I think the real problem is that I was working really hard to reason with this other editor and was doing it alone probably because it was over the weekend. I guess the other editors of that article had better things to do with their weekend.  ;^)

Natalya's advice of taking a break is a good one. It's the same advice that I've given other users in the past.

To User:Aeon1006, thanks for your offer. Your assistance is not needed right now but it may be needed soon if the user in question continues to push his/her agenda.

To all, just as evidence of my commitment to "doing things right", I deleted or modified the objectionable text three times, each time leaving a detailed explanation of why. On the fourth time, I left the objectionable text in and copyedited it with an edit summary that said something along the lines of "well, as long as we're keeping this text here for now, it might as well look good". As mentioned above, that copyedited text has since been removed by the third editor who wasn't nearly so reasonable as I try to be.

--Richard 18:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Fun new things and a straw poll

Hello everyone!

Just about everyone should have recieved the most recent Esperanza newsletter by now. There a quite a few important new things, so I'm putting a bit here just to make sure everyone knows. :)

• First off, to make sure no one misses it, there is a straw poll at Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Governance#Two pieces of charter reform on two pieces of charter reform (hence the name). If you are interested, please make your way there to express your opinion.
• So that we are sure that all new members of Esperanza are welcomed, a section at the members page, Wikipedia:Esperanza/Members#Esperanza welcomers has been created for anyone who is willing to keep track of new members and welcome them. There's nothing better then being welcomed to Esperanza, so consider adding yourself there.
• If you take a look at the Proposed Programs page, you will see that there is now a section called In development. This is for proposed programs that have a lot of potential, but need to be organized more before turning into an actual program. There are some great proposals listed there, but they can only become programs if you want them to!
• The Proposed Programs page has been updated, with some proposals being archived, some being put in development, and some staying as proposals.
• There was discussion a while ago about how the front page of Esperanza actually portrayed Esperanza itself. In an effort to help this, the front page is going to be updated! Please bring any creative, artistic, or eloquent thoughts to Wikipedia:Esperanza/Front page redesign.

I think that's about it. Hope everyone is having a lovely day/night/general time, and don't let stressful things get you down. -- Natalya 17:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I need an opinion

I'm planning to create a Wikipedian organization that supports those who knows someone or who is a survivor of cancer, tumors, malignant diseases, etc. Its main purpose is to support the cause of finding cures for these diseases. Does anyone think this is a good idea?--Ed^{talk c E} 17:52, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how Wikipedia has anything to do with finding cures for those diseases. I would not create anything on Wikipedia space for that. --Fang Aili ^talk 17:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

That's not what I meant!! Around the world, there are people who die from cancer and other related diseases. My mom had cancer herself; luckily she survived. The main goal of my proposed organisation is to empower those who know someone that died to a disease. It is intended to be a support group. And our most important goal would be to support cancer research and to put an end to all of this.--Ed^{talk c E} 18:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that's something that should be done off-wikipedia. —Mets501 (talk) 18:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Could you please explain why??? --Ed^{talk c E} 18:17, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. If you want to create your own wiki site, by all means go ahead. Aren't there a lot of support sites already, though? --Fang Aili ^talk 18:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Fang Aili's shorter contribution was added while I was composing the somewhat more verbose response below and so I ran into an edit conflict. Here are my thoughts on the proposal...

Please consult WP:NOT. Wikipedia is not a free host, blog, webspace provider or social networking site although the open-source Mediawiki software is arguably a good tool for doing what you want. Please distinguish between the Mediawiki software which is available on a number of web service hosting providers and the Wikipedia which is an online encyclopedia.

As User:Fang Aili suggests, you might find that there are already lots of support sites out there already. Try searching on Google.

Don't get us wrong, your proposal IS a laudable one. My father died last year from an incurable and terminal disease and I benefited from an online support group during the process. However, your laudable idea is not one that is consonant with the goals of building an online encyclopedia.

Even pages in the Talk and Wikipedia talk spaces should be limited to discussions pertinent to these goals. A bit of personal chitchat is normal and tolerated but it is against Wikipedia policy to mount organized efforts to foster communication that is not in direct support of the goal of building an online encyclopedia. --Richard 18:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Problem with welcome template

The welcome template has a dead link to IRC tutorial as a result of Nathan being indef blocked. It says in the deletion log that he requested it be deleted. Can we get a new IRC tutorial page, or should we just take that part out of the template? Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 11:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll write an IRC tutorial for using mIRC if you'd like, however i would be unable to use screenshots as fair use is not allowed outside main and mIRC is copyrighted paid software.

What about a java client tutorial? Matthew Fenton (Talk | Contribs) 11:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The IRC tuturial has been restored at Wikipedia:IRC tutorial, so I will direct the link there. —Mets501 (talk) 13:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Ungovernable Force^{The Wiki Kitchen!} 01:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Please fix your newsletter spamming system

It doesn't make much sense to deliver the newsletter to indefinitely banned users. --Cyde Weys 03:27, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Looks like he was just never added to the inactive members list (thanks for pointing that out, inadvertendly). -- Natalya 03:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Not so inadvertently ... fix the bot, fix the list, whatever. --Cyde Weys 03:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I meant thanks for pointing out that it was the list's fault - it's already been corrected. -- Natalya 03:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)