[edit] Wikipedia:Esperanza/Alerts

[edit] Issues

• Program is too internal
  • Question: Too internal? I've seen non-Esperanzans listed here, too... riana_dzasta 04:43, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

I added this discussion in case someone had a concern. Are there any comments regarding this program? If so, list the issue above this section on "Issues" and comment here on this discussion.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 04:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• We need to be sure that this project works harder on reaching out to non-Esperanzans. This project mostly serves as a means to help out stressed Esperanzans. While that is important, this program has the most potential to put a positive face on what Esperanzans do, and I feel it falls short in that potential. We need to be on the lookout for stress wikipedians who are in need of relief, especially by watching AfD discussions, talk pages, etc. for signs that a wikipedian is stress out, and be proactive in reaching out to them. As with other programs, this one has the potential to do a lot of good, but as it stands right now is more an internal than external program. --Jayron32 04:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The way it seems to have worked so far, while Esperanzians are usually the ones who add themselves, when others add users, those who are added are both Esperanzians and non-Esperanzians alike. Perhaps if we make it more known that anyone can add themselves, that will help. -- Natalya 21:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This should be more announced--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 23:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Seconded (or thirded, I dunno). Sometimes it's hard to pick up the stressed users...I'm not sure how to make this known outside of Esperanza. DoomsDay349 04:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Advertising this program could take a while. We don't want to spam people's pages to spread the message. As long as we keep encouraging stressed users that are not part of Esperanza, our purpose might become more well-known.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 04:16, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

These deletions are probably the greatest single publicity these pages are going to get, and since the impressions seem to be positive (EG. Changes), I suggest making use of that to correct the notion its for internal use only, as well as any other common misconceptions that seem to be widely believed. 68.39.174.238 17:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you saying that we can still use the massive-deletions against us to help our image? That just might work...--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 18:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Other than using your userpage, or landing on WP:MW after almost a month of quitting the project, is there any other place to state that something is going wrong with you and the project? I see the stress alerts as a noticeboard stating if someone will go on wikibreak or anything else. Also this is Esperazanza for crying out loud! Isn't giving hope to those who need it the point of the organization? Some esperanzaians gave good points in the below section. Maybe we shouldn't scrap the stress alerts, but offer help to those who ask for it. If they want out for a while, let them. They'll come back anyway. --LBMixPro ^{<Speak|on|it!>}

[edit] The best way to handle stress

I think this section of Esperanza has a problem because it promotes an unhealthy method of resolving stress. By far the best method of resolving stress on the Internet is temporary disengagement. Wikipedia isn't going to suffer a catastrophic meltdown if you go away for a week or so, and indeed, WikiBreaks are excellent ways for Wikipedians to come back refreshed and get out of a funk (I can personally vouch for that). One of the worse things that can happen is when a member is stressed out, and rather just taking time away to recoup, they are pressured into remaining. That's the problem with the stress alerts. It puts a lot of community pressure on people, basically telling them that they need to stick around and resolve everything on-wiki. The best cure, though, is really to leave for a bit, not to get pressured into staying against your will and trying to resolve things on here. Frankly, it's disruptive to the encyclopedia; people should be working out their problems elsewhere.

That's the problem I have with stress alerts. There should really only be one stress alert: Feeling stressed? Take a break. I fear that anything else is counter-productive. If you aren't in good form to be productively working on the encyclopedia, take some time off from it and work out your problems elsewhere. Pressuring people to stick around and giving them condescending on-wiki ways to reduce their stress is not in anyone's best interests. --Cyde Weys 01:30, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm...good points, good points. But, does that serve to delete the stress alerts page? Can't we just keep it, and when we find a user stressed A) Offer encouragement and B) Suggest breaks. That's what I would do. DoomsDay349 01:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Cyde. As I said in my vote on the MfD, the last thing I would recommend to someone stressed out and/or ill from Wikipedia is to remain here. Speaking from experience, having forced myself to stay off Wikipedia when it made me ill, wikibreaks are beneficial when necessary. I fear the Stress alerts, from some Esperanzan's comments on MfD, have been used as a form of peer pressure, however unintentionally, to force people to keep editing. Indeed, from the extremely emotional reaction of some people, including one person who said they were rescued from the brink of suicide by Esperanza, I think some people who would otherwise have left have become dependant on Esperanza and do little else on Wikipedia but chat here. Which is not healthy for either them or Wikipedia. The stress alerts may need to be deleted. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 01:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

No, they simply need reform! Here's what we need to do; tell people not to suggest that they stay online. Tell them the exact opposite; Take a break! Calm down, chill out, and come back whenever you want to, if you want to. There is absolutely no reason, however, not to offer words of encouragement alongside this! You're essentially saying it's wrong to promote WikiLove. DoomsDay349 02:19, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

You know Doomsday, I find the existence of Esperanza very strange, now I know more about it. With the programs you have left, you bring an organisation to do what every individual editor should do already. Whenever I see an editor leaving, I leave a message of encouragement on their talkpage, offering them help and advice for if they want to return. I did it only an hour ago. I don't know why Esperanza needs to do this: messages from random strangers will not mean as much as someone you've interacted with, does it? Maybe you should simply promote encouraging messages among the wider community to the editors that do not naturally do it? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 02:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

"Esperanza does what editors should do". Should, but don't. Esperanza is necessary because, without it, I seriously doubt that anyone would do what we do without it. DoomsDay349 03:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I would support the deletion of this page, only if the Forum is created. I think that the Forum can be used to alert about stressed users.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 02:46, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

"Esperanza is necessary because, without it, I seriously doubt that anyone would do what we do without it." Well, I do for start, without ever having been a part of Esperanza. It's this "Wikipedia would collapse without us" mentality that garnered you so many delete votes at the MfD. You keep implying that every editor without the omnipresence of Esperanza is some sort of hardhearted firebreathing deletionist who want to chain everyone to their deasks and have them edit fourteen hours a day. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 12:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

You see, Cyde, the world is not as simple or as shallow as you think. Just because you can sit back and abuse your admin rights doesn't mean that others can, will, or want to follow your methods. That page is valuable, and needs to be kept. Fredil ^{Shadows of Darkness} 16:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Fredil, thanks for the opinion, but try not to make personal attacks. Remember to coment on content, not the contributor. I've left your statement untouched, but urge you to strike out the personal attacks, and appoligise. Thε Halo ^Θ 16:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Dev, the idea that everyone else is mean is not what I'm attempting to say. What I'm saying is this; even if other Wikipedians spread cheer, what is so amazingly wrong and so harmful about having an organization to do so? Now, I mean having the principle; I understand that the current organization is flawed. But assuming that Esperanza is reformed to what it should be; is it so wrong? DoomsDay349 17:46, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't object to the idea in principle, Doomsday, but I have seen Esperanzan after Esperanzan claiming that Esperanza is absolutely vital to the continuing happiness of editors, and without it we would all be, yes, mean. I can pull out some quotes to support this from the MfD if you would like. And if Esperanzans believe that, then they need a severe reality check. But I wonder where they got that attitude from - and I wonder if any amount of reform can change an Esperanzan's heart. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 18:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

That is a very good point about encouraging people to take breaks from Wikipeida when things are getting stressful, as it really is the best way to relax. However, I don't think having the Alerts Page works against this. If someone is stressed out and they list themselves on this page, it's highly likely that someone else will post something encouraging on their talk page and mention that if they're feeling stressed out, they should take some time for themselves and relax. Certainly, others may offer suggestions of how to relax on-Wikipedia, but it can go both ways. The same goes for Wikibreaks and people leaving Wikipedia. There may be as much encouragment and support of the user's decision as there is to keep them here, but that is really up to the individual user leaving the message. -- Natalya 22:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I strongly believe that the Stress alerts page should be maintained in some form, and not simply because I am an all-too-frequent beneficiary of it. Hearing a kind word helps. At the same time, Wikipedia is not therapy, and if I am a person is seriously depressed, he or she should seek professional help.

I also want to add that if the Stress alerts page is maintained, perhaps links to it should be placed on RfA, AfD, etc. pages where people tend to get stressed. --Kyoko 22:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Natalya seems to hit the nail right on the head. Dropping a kind word on somebody's talk page while they're stressed out definitely doesn't preclude them from taking a Wikibreak; I don't think it influences them for or against it either way, personally. With that said, I like the Stress Alerts and the concept behind it. I think Wikipedians benefit from having a third party come in and sympathize with their situation and that this significantly helps to relieve stress.

I've been helping out a brand new user that could very well single-handedly bring an article up to featured status with the quality of her writing, but this user is getting discouraged by a certain person who is questioning all of her edits. I put her up on the Stress Alerts page and it received prompt interest from an Esperanzian. I think this helped a lot, because before it seemed like I was the only one supporting her. She needed and benefitted from the extra support, and in the end, this strengthens the Wikipedia community and is what Esperanza is all about. —Lantoka ^{( talk | contrib)} 23:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Another thing which doesn't seem to have been mentioned is that there are different levels of stress, and hearing some encouragement may be enough for an editor to resume productive work. Of course, there are more severe stresses where some kind words spread online won't be enough to alleviate entirely, but as I said, hearing a kind word helps. There are times when taking a wikibreak is the best thing to do, but it need not be the only recourse for a stressed Wikipedian. --Kyoko 00:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Kind words do help. That's why I support this program, and think it should be kept. Read a kindness story on User:Ed/Kindness--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 00:11, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

All of this sounds like a good goal. Perhaps it should be merged with the Kindness Campaign? - jc37 00:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I've wondered about what was really the difference between Esperanza, the Kindness Campaign, and Concordia, when many of their goals seem to overlap. Esperanza seems to be more organised, for lack of a better term, and it seems to have more visibility. Some aspects of what Esperanza does could arguably be folded into the Welcoming Committee too. Perhaps some combination of all of these might be in order? --Kyoko 00:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I would be for uniting them all. Is the term "Esperanza" unique to Wikipedia? If so, I wouldn't have a problem with uniting under that single name all such projects which support Wikipedia by supporting Wikipedians. (I've actually been thinking about this since the MfD : ) - jc37 06:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Could I suggest you have a look at Wikipedia:Kindness Campaign/Strategy#Cooperation with Esperanza.3F, being more organised (and including a hierarchy) is a reason for some KC members (including myself) not to merge... Addhoc 17:06, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I really feel that this page should stay, and that it is one of the most important parts of Esperanza. While I agree fully with Cyde that a break is often the best course of action, the stress alerts page does nothing to prevent people from taking a break. In fact, most of the time when I see someone taking a Wikibreak, I tell them something along the lines of, "Sorry to hear that you are stressed. Please, take some time away to relax and recharge your batteries." I feel that this page, if done properly, can be the best tool we have for helping people feel appreciated (especially in the times that they feel least appreciated of all), and for helping retain productive contributors.

As some people have pointed out, the major problem with this page is getting more people aware of this page, so it's not just Esperanzans supporting fellow Esperanzans. Part of this discussion has already begun at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Overhaul/Becoming a part of the community, which I encourage you to contribute to. As I suggested there, I feel one of the ways more people could become aware of stress alerts and other programs is to send a message to relatively new users, similar to Wikipedia:Esperanza/Esperanza services. Hopefully this would help pages like this become more inclusive of the entire Wikipedia community, and not just a self-sustaining subculture. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 17:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Resolution

[edit] Keep

• Strong Support I believe a stress alerts system is vital to Esperanza's goals. Thε Halo ^Θ 10:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong support. Having a separate page of users who classify themselves as stressed or unwell is more convenient for both those who are being listed as well as those who wish to respond. If the current stress alerts page were folded into the proposed forum page, new alerts risk being missed in the midst of the other page content, and it would be harder to track down new alerts than in the current table format. This doesn't preclude people also mentioning their stress on the forum page, but I strongly feel that the current table format is the most readable and convenient form for these purposes. --Kyoko 14:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong support per my comments above. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 22:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strongest support and speedy keep that I have ever given. This page deserves to be kept. It is very useful, to say the least, and will prove to be helpful as more users come to Wikipedia. Fredil 02:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong keep - Although the coffee lounge was probably rightly deleted, what harm is a page where Wikipedian's can say they're being stressed & get reassurance? Takes up little space & only helps the website, not harms. Heck, even some employees get dental, why not give editors a place to get councilling? Thanks, Spawn Man 06:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong support per Kyoko. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 07:23, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delete and combine with new Forum/noticeboard

• Weak Object but not because it is a bad idea per se. However, the forum will always have links with the coffee lounge, so talking about editors rather than articles/policy etc could be seen as possible social networking. I not saying I think that it would turn into a social netwrok, but I can see the more cinical editor thinking it might be, which is why I would like to see a speration between encyclopedia programmes and editor ones. Thε Halo ^Θ 10:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delete

[edit] RESULT

Keep. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 07:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Ummm... Should you be able to close the discussion since you you voted for keep? Not questioning your ability to stay middle grounded, but wouldn't a neutral person be better? Just a thoguht... :) Spawn Man 08:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)