[edit] Wikipedia:Esperanza/Members

[edit] Issues

• The list does not promote the idea that Esperanza reaches out to all members of the community.
  • In fact, some people believe that being on the membership list gets people more "benefits".

[edit] Discussion

I partially agree with the issues. Most Esperanzians usually get more support from the community as opposed to non-Esperanzians.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 19:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no thoughts on this issue - the following comments appeared at the Esperanza talkpage:

Having read the comments at all the latest deletion discussions it appears that a lot of people view EA as a sort of clique or club within wikipedia that serves to benefit its members rather than the community as a whole. I think this is turning into a problem that's serving to polarise us against the community in various subtle ways.

I would therefore like to suggest we get rid of the membership list. I'm not sure it is very useful as it is at the moment. Most entries on the list are inactive and it's not like you have to be a member to be a part of Esperanza. We should (well, we do) welcome everyone, member or not. Are we not here to do a service to the community as a whole rather than our members.

Removing clear demarcations of membership I think would be a step towards breaking down the us/them polarization that's pervading discussions about us at the moment. Esperanza should be all inclusive rather than be perceived as a members club. YDAM TALK 08:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think the member list is harmful to Esperanza. I think it's part of the reason for the perception of Esperanza as some kind of clique or secret club. Membership should be defined by participation: a clear-cut "member/nonmember" distinction is an unnecessary segregation. Feezo (Talk) 22:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess we could just remove the members list. Deleting the members list, however, will cause a huge chain reaction. The Newsletter bots send newsletters to everyone on the list. The elections for the advisory council are based on the votes by members list. Deleting this page would require severe reform.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 19:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Create an opt in list for the bot. And if you wish to continue to elect a council, open it up to all Wikipedians. I thought Esperanza was for everyone - isn't this the direction you've all agreed you want to emphasise, both on the MfD and elsewhere? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, a few words on reform. Now is the time for severe reforms if you wish to propose any. Half the programs have been deleted, the charter is being amended, largely anything and everything should be discussed and/or reformed. I would suggest that it's now or never. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the op-in list would be easy to set up, and I think that Esperanzians are smart enough to know how is involved enough both in Esperanza and Wikipedia to be able to enough to be on the council. Thε Halo ^Θ 20:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding elections. I don't think the membership list is that useful looking at [[1]] Cyde only joined so he could vote in elections. If people are going to do that then there's no reason why we shouldn't just open membership to everyone. Shouldn't Esperanza be aiming to be one with the community rather than seperate from it. Aleo re: newsletter. We currently have an opt out list. Why not simply change it to an opt in list.  YDAM TALK 20:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Per Ed, I suggest that we keep this until we have the reform hammered out, to the last detail. Then, we can immediately delete and replace with minimal damage. DoomsDay349 20:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why it's even being considered for deletion. As Ed said, a lot of things revolve around the list. It's not like Esperanza is an elite club, and the people on the list get more support. If people thing that adding their name will get them support (which I don't think it will), they can add their name anytime they want. editor review me!-TeckWiz^TalkContribs_{# of Edits} 20:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not like Esperanza is an elite club, and the people on the list get more support that may be true but from some of the comments in the recent MFD it is clear that it is being perceived as such by an increasing percentage of wikipedians. We should be trying to alay this perception if possible as it's damaging both to Esperanza and the community as a whole.  YDAM TALK 20:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

If we delete the list, how will we know who are members of Esperanza? Will there be a Category:Esperanzians or something, or will we just have to go by who is active in Esperanza's projects? Also, does this mean that there will be no more sign-up requirements, since there will be no more singing up?  Shardsofmetal  20:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that if Esperanza stands for hope among all Wikipedians, than one should be able to participate in it regardless of any memebrship requirements. Perhaps they should be reviewed as well? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

If we keep the members list, let's look at the requirements then. But, if we don't, as far as I'm concerned, then there will be no more requirements. If you want to interact with the services provided, go ahead. Thε Halo ^Θ 21:59, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but what does "interact with the services provided" mean? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, right now, because of the members list, users who aren't members feel that they can't use Esperanza programmes or interact in any discussions within Esperanza. If we get rid of the member's list, that wouldn't be a problem, as it would be clear to everyone that anyone can use any part of Esperanza. The idea that Esperanza can only be used be Esperanza is one of the main things we shold try and get rid of during these reforms. Thε Halo ^Θ 23:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Why not just keep it, but put, in big, big print with fancy design, that putting your name on this list does not confer any special benefits or power and only serves to acknowledge you are part of Esperanza? DoomsDay349 22:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea Doomsday.

[edit] Inactive/former members section needs to go

I'm a bit ambivalent on the "Current members" list, but the "inactive/former members" section really needs to go. I'm figuring that lots of people on there were added against their will, or at least without their consent. For instance, on the 14th of this month, right before the MFD, a bunch of others and I removed our names from the Esperanza member list in protest of what it was turning into. Someone came through and added all of us into the "inactive/former members" section. I had to revert that. Why was this done? What is the point? If people don't want to be associated with Esperanza, let them leave. Don't try to forcibly keep them on some former member roll, i.e., "If you were ever in Esperanza you will always still be in Esperanza, at least to some degree". I fear that most of the names on the inactive/former members list were added involuntarily simply because some member removed their own name from the member list, and then an Esperanzian came through and added them to the "former" list. As such, the former/inactive list should be wiped clean and removed. It has the potential to create a lot of strife and no benefit as far as I can see. A list of the current members of Esperanza is good enough. We don't need to try to make a list of all of the people who have ever been members of Esperanza, especially when people often don't want to be on that list. And trying to force people to be on the list is an even worse idea ... how many people would join Esperanza if the policy was that you could never truly leave it because you'd always still be associated with it thanks to a list that implies you're just "inactive"? --Cyde Weys 01:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

100% totally and amazingly agree. Cyde, I regret that you left Esperanza; would you consider coming back after the reforms? Despite the attitude towards you, I think you would make a great Esperanzian in the reformed version. DoomsDay349 01:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I also agree. As it is, I don't even see any constructive purpose it serves anyway.  Shardsofmetal  04:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

New concern: What about the welcome templates?--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 04:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vote

[edit] Delete in its Entirety

• Support I see no importance in this.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 04:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support Promotes the idea if Esperanza being a club and clique.  YDAM TALK 09:50, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

• I'd like to add that if we get rid of it we should probably just move it somewhere else and use it's current content as a newsletter opt-in list.  YDAM TALK 15:03, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - pointless: too exclusive. Moreschi 16:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keep but Remove Inactive/Former Members Section

• Keep, but remove the former members list, as without with there would be total anarchy. We know that Esperanza is a separate organization, as all other organizations are, we can’t change that. What we have to change is the feeling we spread of being an elite cabal. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 13:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean when you say there would be total anarchy? What do you envisage happening?  YDAM TALK 13:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm…maybe I was over-exaggerating. But the thing is that we should tackle the our attitude, not get carried away and delete the members list. The thing is that many people do not subscribe our view. We need to separate the people who do from those who don’t as in most Wikiprojects. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 13:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support-Whats the point of an organization if it's not organized. Of course there should be a members list. The bot the sends the newsletter sends it to the people on that list. It's not like Esperanza is an elite club. Anyone can put their name there if they want. Don't WikiProjects have member lists? First a lot of people get rid of their green "e" and now they're getting rid of the member list. Where's the "sense of community going? editor review me!-TeckWiz^TalkContribs_{# of Edits} 14:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

There shouldn't be a separate sense of community among Esperanzans. There should be only one community - the Wikipedia community. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 15:16, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

But other Wikiprojects have member lists.  Shardsofmetal  17:16, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

True, and thus I have no opinion on whether this one should stay or go, but I object to the idea that Esperanza should be a community "set apart". Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:27, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

It's useful though for other projects to have member lists though. For instance, if I want something translated it usefull to be able to find someone who participates in translation projects. I don't think it's useful in hte same way for Esperanza to have one. Dev920 mentions a good point. I think the concept of membership does encourage the idea of Esperanza as "set apart". Also lets not forget that a significant porportion of the community does view Esperanza a clique or club. Esperanza must do something to combat this perception  YDAM TALK 18:14, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep for now. I'm starting to think that it probably is a better idea to keep the members list. However, I would like to see some form of Former members list, for people who want to be there. Banes, for example, ask me to add him to it today, so it should be there only for the people who want to be in the list. Thε Halo ^Θ 20:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Keep I don't think it's exclusionist if we make it clear that anyone can add themselves. Add a blurb like this:

Do you agree to abide by the charter?

Do you meet the mimimum membership requirements listed there?

Are you willing to receive a monthly newsletter on your talk page?

(If there's any other things Esperanza thinks new members should be required to read, link to them here too. Finally,)

Do you want to become a member of Esperanza?

If you answered yes to all these questions, add your name to the list below, and you will become Esperanza's newest member. Welcome aboard!

Btw, I like Halo's suggestion of making the former members list optional. If someone deletes themselves from the list, then don't add them back. (I do think that former Council members should still be listed somewhere on Esperanza, since they're a significant part of the group's history, and have made themselves public figures by running for election.) Quack 688 23:34, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

• • Comment So far, all council members, past and present can be found here. Thε Halo ^Θ 00:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - Every WikiProject has a members list. Though I would just split the "former/inactive" to another page for historical purposes, rather than delete. - jc37 01:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support - Functions as a newsletter opt-in list, and every single other Wikiproject has a member list. The inactive/former members section really doesn't serve too much of a purpose. --Limetom 01:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, the members list is a need for easier reference to find Esperanzians, so if is there anything, it's easy to search for the members. But we should remove the list of former members. --Terence Ong _{(C | R)} 17:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Keep the Whole Thing

[edit] RESULT

Keep, but remove the inactive/former members list. --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 15:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)