[edit] Wikipedia:Esperanza/Calendar

[edit] Issues

• Redundant with BDC

[edit] Discussion

Discussion requested by Dev. I see nothing wrong with the Birthday Calendar. Although I'm getting a little uneasy about the fact that mostly Esperanzian birthdays, adminship days, and 1st edit days are included.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 18:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Like the userpage award, distracts from the main purpose of Wikipedia, of editing articles. I hadn't noticed the entries were all Esperanzans, though obviously that is a concern as well. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not everyday that you have a birthday. How is this distracting from the main purpose of Wikipedia? It only takes 2 minutes to send a nice Birthday greeting.--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 19:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, I've seen many wikipedians who are not Esperanzians who are on the calendar. Thε Halo ^Θ 19:08, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, the objection I have is not so much that there is a calendar, it's that it's too focused on Esperanza. Like many of the good ideas that Esperanza produces, it's been kept internally and deepens exclusion. I think, if you want to continue with this idea, it should be taken out of Esperanza, put into Wikipedia namespace and people's birthdays announced on the community portal. At the moment, it just seems self-congratulatory for Esperanzans. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

We can merge into WP:BDC--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 19:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. Just move the entire calendar, as they're copying straight from you anyway. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, they're one in the same. Merge with Birthday Commitee...time to vote! DoomsDay349 20:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The calendar has been expanding as we have worked with the WP:BDC and found new members. I think that we might remove the WP:EA/HB page (and just let the BDC do the wishing), but the calendar is a great idea to help show the good nature of Esperanza and introduce new members to us. The calendar is a program of support that and many people enjoy receiving the results.

Also, I have done a lot of work on the calendar so far (which is not a reason to keep it), but moving would entail the deletion and movement of hundreds of pages (as most days have their own page). – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  05:00, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Keeping the calendar but merging/removing the Esperanza birthday page could be a good compromise. Many Esperanzians who wish people happy [insert day here] use the calendar, and there's no reason that both organizations can't use it. At the same time, merging or deleting the Esperanza birthday page might alleviate some of the concerns about redundancy. -- Natalya 16:31, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vote

[edit] Keep as Is

• Support Keep WP:EA/CAL as part of Esperanza, but merge WP:EA/HB into WP:BDC. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  05:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support. BDC has already rejected our proposal for a merger. Please see Wikipedia talk:Birthday Committee/Merge? --May the Force be with you! Shreshth91 12:42, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The merger rejected an attempt to merge BDC to the Esperanza project. From what I have read of that page, Esperanza basically wrote a somewhat imperious letter saying "We're better at the calendar then you, join us." Unsurprisingly, the offer was turned down. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 13:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support per Shreshth. No reason not to keep this here. Thε Halo ^Θ 12:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. No reason not to keep it here? Aside from it's utter redundancy with BDC and it's introspectiveness to Esperanza. DoomsDay349 18:03, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
    • It is already on the BDC's page, so why move out it out of Esperanza as well. This way, the calendar is in two places, rather than just the one? Thε Halo ^Θ 19:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Umm...you realize that makes no sense, right? "Oh, but we can have it in two places, instead of one!" So, you're saying to keep it because it's redundant? DoomsDay349 01:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
        • It really matters if the BDC use the calendar as well as us? It hurts wikipedia to have it in two places? No. This way, it will be seen by more people, and more people will be able to act upon the information, if they wish. In fact, I think it is great having the calendar here, as it encourages Esperanzians to go into the wider community to find out people's birthdays and interact with them, and not just remain in Esperaza. It also encourages people to come to Esperanza, and accept it as part of the community, not just a sub-community. By getting a steady flow of editors in and out of Esperanza, we become part of the community again, not a sub-community. Thε Halo ^Θ 01:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
          • • Whatever, then. Leave it as is; guess it's not doing so much harm. DoomsDay349 01:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support. This clearly fits with our goals, so there's no reason not to keep it here. Probably be a good idea to clarify that everyone is welcome to add themselves to the calendar. Regards, —Celestianpower ^háblame 14:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

If you move it to BDC, you will not have to go to the extra trouble of having to promote it outside of Esperanza, and it will still fit with your goals. This is the problem I have with Esperanza - you're so determined to keep everything in-house that you don't realise you're only making yourself more separate from the rest of us. If a separate Birthday calendar was set up in response to Esperanza's calendar, then Esperanza's job is done, and it should hive off the program to make more people than just Esperanzans happy. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 15:14, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support, it was already considered in relation to the Birthday Committee, there's no reason to change what played out. -- Natalya 02:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support It's fine. Jam01 06:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support "Issue- None so far" says it all. I dont have a problem with it - • The Giant Puffin • 20:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support per above.  Shardsofmetal  07:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support keeping it as is. The calendar is one of those things that really meets Esperanza's main goal of promoting a community of Wikipedians. As many people have said over the past couple weeks, contributors here are not robots, they're humans. Is wishing someone a happy birthday or first edit day necessary for building an encyclopedia? No. Does it make people feel appreciated and recognized? Very often. Finally, does it make people feel like they are part of the Wikipedia community, that they have a reason to stay and contribute because there are people here who appreciate them being here? Absolutely. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 23:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I would likt to point out that I am not a robot simply because I am not a member of Esperanza, and I am starting to feel deeply offended whenever a member of Esperanza insists we are. Please stop insulting the rest of us who work on the Encyclopedia and don't need Esperanza. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 06:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I apologize if I inadvertantly offended you, I assure you it was completely unintentional. I was not referring to you or to anyone in particular, nor was I saying people who are not in Esperanza are robots; in fact, you're one of the people I was least referring to, since you understand that Esperanza can be a good thing and you're trying your best to help us overhaul. The "Wikipedians are not robots" remarks are generally directed toward people who 1. Think Esperanza isn't needed at all, 2. If it's allowed to exist, anything that doesn't go directly toward editing the encyclopedia is worthless, and 3. People don't need words of encouragement or stress relief; "the best form of stress relief is to avoid that particular article and write another one." I was merely stating that Esperanza has given up a couple less encyclopedic ventures that probably needed to be done away with, but small things like the calendar and the stress alerts are integral to keeping Esperanza worthwhile. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 08:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, Son --IAMTHEEGGMAN^{Δdark side} 04:08, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep It's ultimately very important to the community of Wikipedians. The birthday wishes and greetings actually do help Wikipedians in editing Wikipedia as an encyclopedia - for they can know that they are appreciated on Wikipedia. I think it helps overall in making this a better place to edit, and to help out in. Keep per above, though if it ends up being merger, I'd still be happy to wish others good luck. =) –- kungming·2 ^(Talk) | Review 18:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support Keep as it is.--Húsönd 21:19, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support --Terence Ong _{(C | R)} 18:01, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Looks like WP:BDC is using our calendar anyway, so I don't see why we can't keep it here. It might make sense to move it to WP:BDC, but that would involve moving hundreds of pages, right? However WP:EA/HB is redundant with WP:BDC. --Fang Aili ^talk 20:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with BDC

• Support per above. DoomsDay349 20:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support per above discussion. Thε Halo ^Θ 21:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support per common sense. Abeg92contribs 21:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support--Ed ^{¿Cómo estás?} 01:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support as per above. --Limetom 01:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support seems more relevant to the BDC, but they'll have to focus on admin and first-edit days. --LBMixPro ^{<Speak|on|it!>} 07:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
• Merge - Though you might find out if the BDC would like to become part of Esperanza. - jc37 00:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

That is quite arrogant to suggest that a Wikipedian organisation bring itself under Esperanza's jurisdiction. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 08:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

• Support The BDC is pretty much using Esperanza birthday records primarily anyways. -- ßottesiηi ^(talk) 20:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support admin and first edit days seems like taking it too far though. . .--Banana04131 19:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support, per everyone else--Seadog ^♪ 04:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support I think having both is a bit redundant. Marialadouce | parlami 13:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support for the most part, where Esperanza functions can be subsumed by other organizations, it will help incoprorate Esperanza more with the community at large --Jayron32 21:28, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment How so? If programs are moved to other projects, then Esperanza has less involvement with the community at large, because EA no longer has any part in the program. – Heaven's Wrath   ^Talk  22:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

That's good. It means you can involve yourselves as ordinary Wikipedians. ...You do remember that you're a normal Wikipedian, right? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that what Heaven means is that one of the main points made to Esperanza in the MfD was to became part of the community, not a sub-community. By moving all of our programmes out of Esperanza, there will be no Esperanza in the community, or out of it. If we get rid of all Esperanza programmes, then Esperanza will be deleted without an MfD, as it will no longer exist. While we must strive to make ourselves part of the community again, at the same time we mustn't stop being part of that community be stopping existing. Thε Halo ^Θ 23:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Esperanza's role, as you define it, is to spread hope and love among editors. Can you do that if you keep all your programs internally? If something's a good idea, someone outside Esperanza will set something similar up outside Esperanza. In that case, it is better to accept that Esperanza has achieved its goal, hive off that program and come up with something else. You did it with Trading Spaces, I see no reason why a similar cannot be done elsewhere. By keeping things in-house, only Esperanzans will be interested. You can talk about opening it up, or promoting it outside Esperanza, but it won't work. people will see that Esperanza label, that trademark green, and turn off. Moving the idea out, into the community, to bring happiness to the greatest number, that's where you will find true Esperanzan ideals - not the monopolist insular trend that currently prevails. If Esperanza is meant to promote WikiLove, then it will continue to do so, with or without programs, just as the Kindness Campaign does. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you're right. That might be what happens. However, I do live in hope that once these reforms are over, Wikipedians are big enough to see that what we want to do is be part of the wider community, and instead of turning away, give us a chance. As I say, maybe your right and I'm wrong. But I do live in hope. Thε Halo ^Θ 23:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Halo, YOU are the wider community. Every Esperanzan is a Wikipedian. You all just need to realise that. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

• Merge - Well duh? Spawn Man 06:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Strong SupportI like the idea of the Calendar but I think it just fills the same niche as the BDC. —¡Randfan! 23:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• Merge Having a different calendar from the general wikipedians makes us seem a little elitist, doesn't it? Laurən^whisper 16:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Delete Permanently

• I really don't get it ... what do birthdays have to do with Wikipedia? I can see how adminship and first edit days are tangentially Wikipedia-related, but they really don't have anything to do with writing the encyclopedia. Seriously, what is the point of all of this? It just seems like a waste of time. Also, why is there a birthday committee? If we're refocusing Esperanza to be more related to Wikipedia's mission, then this extraneous stuff really needs to go. No offense to anyone, but it's this kind of stuff that gives Esperanza its bad reputation. --Cyde Weys 01:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment The Birthday Committee isn't a part of Esperanza. Thε Halo ^Θ 01:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Is it fair to say that it is strongly correlated? --Cyde Weys 22:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Probably. I mean, there are a lot of BDC members who are also in Esperanza, and the BDC is working with the Community in mind, so yes. I'd say that it is fair to say they are strongly correlated. Thε Halo ^Θ 02:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Support - It's nice, and I signed up for it, but it's trite. One of the major concerns that spilled through in the MfD was that Esperanza is leaning towards wasting the time of WP editors; while it looks from the weighting of votes here so far it seems it will probably be kept in, it's not something that Wikipedia needs. The support is only weak because it is a nicety, it is something intended to lift spirits, that participants only have to make one edit for and members have templates to use; nominally it doesn't take much time, and aims for a warm happy feeling in those who decide to participate. --Firien § 11:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)