Wikipedia:Esperanza/Advisory Committee Meeting January 2006/log
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Titoxd Celestianpower: I think we're ready Celestianpower Cool Celestianpower So, do we all have WP:ESP/ACM2 open? FireFox Yes Celestianpower Titoxd? Titoxd yes Celestianpower Good Celestianpower First item is Shindigs Celestianpower Do we need to plan shindigs in advance or should we just let then happen when there's lots of people in IRC? Celestianpower Last time I just announced it out of the blue Titoxd I think we could do both Celestianpower When's the next even we want to mark with a shindig? Titoxd if there's a lot of people in the channel, we can start one, but if people see it on-Wiki, they can join too Celestianpower Yeah - I added a notice to WP:EA last time Celestianpower and the announcements page Celestianpower Should we organise another one now? Titoxd we could Celestianpower Next weekend? Titoxd next weekend sounds good, and we could set one for Valentine's Day too Celestianpower That's a good idea Celestianpower Valentines day ball FireFox What day is Feb 14th Celestianpower Tuesday Titoxd Tuesday, according to WP:ESP/CA FireFox Ok Celestianpower Yeah - I was looking there too, Titoxd ;) Celestianpower So are we in agreement? FireFox Yes Titoxd Aye Celestianpower Good Celestianpower Moving on Celestianpower making the charter ammendment process more clear Celestianpower Karmafist was going to work on a draft Celestianpower Perhaps it's better to wait for him to be available before we discuss this further? Celestianpower Titoxd and FireFox: thoughts? Titoxd I think that as long as we make clear that the members can submit amendments too, we're fine Titoxd perhaps we just need to outline the process a bit more Celestianpower Yeah Celestianpower That was my thought FireFox Tup FireFox *Yup FireFox I agree Celestianpower Do we want to make that clear in the charter Celestianpower ? Celestianpower "If you wish to ammend this charter, please take it up on theEsperanza talkpage Celestianpower " Titoxd yes Celestianpower Right Titoxd that isn't much of an amendment, it's more like de facto law :) FireFox :) Celestianpower No - does that need an official vote or can I just add it? Titoxd just add it... a vote to have a vote is unnecessary, IMO Celestianpower All agreed that I just add it? FireFox Yes, add it Titoxd aye Celestianpower Good Celestianpower Next point Celestianpower WP:ESP/SYJ Celestianpower Is there anything there that needs revision? FireFox Maybe we should add a bit on the new userpage award scheme? -->| karmafist (n=chatzill@AC89D862.ipt.aol.com) has joined #wikipedia-esperanza-meeting Celestianpower Good idea Titoxd yay! Celestianpower Hi karmafist! Titoxd hello, karmafist Celestianpower karmafist: So far, we've decided to hold a Valentines ball on Feb 14th Celestianpower And to add a line about how to propose ammendments to the charter Celestianpower And we're just discussing WP:ESP/SYJ =-= Mode #wikipedia-esperanza-meeting +v karmafist by FireFox karmafist aha. lemme pull that up Celestianpower without the space ;) Titoxd Celestianpower: we can add something similar to "# You may also want to consider volunteering in one of our programs, to help other users." Celestianpower Titoxd: Yes - that's a good one Celestianpower How would we add in the userpage awards, FireFox? FireFox "You may be interested in our new scheme to award Wikipedia's best userpages"? Celestianpower Next to Titoxd's line? FireFox Yeah sure Celestianpower Cool - I'll add that Celestianpower All agreed? Celestianpower karmafist, Titoxd and FireFox? FireFox nods Celestianpower Anything else? Titoxd aye Titoxd just working on some wording karmafist works fine from the sounds of things Celestianpower Titoxd: Do you want to add it in then? Celestianpower Okay karmafist if I have any disagreements in the future, i'll bring them up, let's see how it works for now Celestianpower Okay Celestianpower Are we ready to move on? Titoxd Celestianpower: you can say, "# You may also want to consider volunteering in one of our programs, to help other users, like User Page Award or Admin Coaching..." I'll work on it later Celestianpower Titoxd: Okay Celestianpower I like that wording Titoxd I'll move admin coaching to a subpage, while I'm at it Celestianpower Titoxd: Yes, it was in need of one I think Celestianpower Are we ready to move on then? karmafist Yes Titoxd Celestianpower: now that we're at it... can we discuss whether we need one coach or two per trainee? Celestianpower Titoxd: I say 2 Celestianpower Titoxd: One would feel quite awkward I think Celestianpower But we probabloy need a faster turnover Titoxd I know... and besides, it gives one the chance to keep with the other one if the second is unavailable karmafist Titoxd,Celestianpower: I thought it could be a community thing, just everybody helps everybody, although a main contact even in that case would be good. Titoxd Celestianpower: agreed Celestianpower Cool Celestianpower karmafist: That feels a bit impersonal to me Titoxd hmm... what I don't want it to end up becoming is like Cleanup. "Oh, somebody else will do it" and no one does it... Celestianpower Yeah - that's a bit of a worry, especally for an organsation like Esperanza karmafist Celestianpower: That's why I suggested a main contact, but we shouldn't put up walls for people to help in regards to that Celestianpower Good point Titoxd well, no one is going to say anything if you help other users :) Titoxd and if they do, they'll get yelled at by me karmafist lol. We should put that on there ;-) karmafist "If you shoo away help, Titoxd will yell" :-D Titoxd :) Celestianpower lol Celestianpower :D karmafist You never know, I try to AGF, but it's always better to be safe than sorry, at least with the over IARing out there. karmafist I doubt it'll be a big deal, but just wanted to bring it up. Celestianpower Okay Titoxd well, in a way, coaches remain as coaches even after the coaching is done... they become good contacts Celestianpower Yes, and good Wikifriends Titoxd definitely :) Celestianpower :) Celestianpower Right Celestianpower So now we can move on? karmafist sure Titoxd yes Titoxd FireFox? FireFox Yep Celestianpower Good karmafist Next up? Celestianpower karmafist's NPA reform is next Titoxd your reform karmafist cool Celestianpower WP:ESP/NPA Celestianpower So, what's your feeling at the moment on how it;s going Celestianpower ? karmafist It's getting there, but what I'd like to see happen is something similiar to what happened with Radiant's subpage. Celestianpower That would be good karmafist And ultimately galvanize us into a force to reform it. We'll get there at this rate, but it'll take time. karmafist Do you have any ideas on how to improve the process? Celestianpower Yes Celestianpower No Celestianpower Buyt I mentioned it the the spam Celestianpower *Buyt Celestianpower *but Celestianpower Perhaps that will improve its visibility karmafist huh? Celestianpower In other news, Karmafist has set up a discussion about a new personal attack policy, which it can be found here. Celestianpower What? Celestianpower Somene removed the word "proposal" karmafist It doesn't seem as much of a "now" thing as it did awhile ago, but i've not had as much on here lately, so everything seems less "apocalyptic" on WP recently for me lately Celestianpower Cool karmafist removed it from the spam or the page? Celestianpower Well, shall we just continue to let it simmer and seee where it is next meeting? Celestianpower karmafist: spam Celestianpower FireFox and Titoxd? karmafist If there are no other comments on how to improve it. I think we all agree that NPA vios are a problem, otherwise, it's just how to fix it, which we'll do with enough support FireFox Sure Titoxd fine with me Celestianpower Cool Celestianpower karmafist: I do like the idea of blocks for multiple vios Celestianpower Okay Celestianpower Moving on karmafist Celestianpower: Likewise. I wish policies in general were clearer, and were clearer in regards to whether to block or not when they're broken. karmafist ok, moving on Celestianpower Shortcuts Celestianpower Can we agree on a general prefix for all Esperanza shortcuts? Celestianpower EA or ESP? FireFox ESP Titoxd WP:ESP is used much more than WP:EA FireFox Yep Celestianpower Right karmafist ESP Celestianpower I'll go about making and publicising some shortcuts then ;) Celestianpower That was a qquick one Celestianpower Next Titoxd WP:ESP/P is confusing... karmafist nice. first come first serve for subpage shortcuts? Titoxd you don't know if it is Programs or Proposals Celestianpower Titoxd: I thought that Titoxd it's Proposals, but I always switch those two Celestianpower Titoxd: Disambig ;) Celestianpower ? karmafist Celestianpower: Good idea Celestianpower Cool FireFox Same with the Charter and the Calender Celestianpower Yeah Celestianpower Okay FireFox WP:ESP/C and WP:ESP/CA karmafist Programs can be PROG, Proposals can be PROP Titoxd oka Celestianpower Cool Titoxd WP:ESP/PROG and WP:ESP/PROP sound reasonable Celestianpower Right Celestianpower I'll go on a shortcut frenzy soon then ;) Titoxd and leave WP:ESP/P, but deprecate it ;) karmafist Firefox, are CHART and CAL ok? We might have the same issue with ESP/C Celestianpower Titoxd: No, we're using disambigs FireFox We could just do CH and CA FireFox or CL karmafist That's fine Titoxd well, I usually think that WP:ESP/C is more visible than WP:ESP/CHA FireFox but we should make ESP/C a disambig Celestianpower Yes Titoxd yes karmafist ok, how about this, all one letter shortcuts are disambigs automatically, that seems to be the consensus Celestianpower All agreed on disambigs? Titoxd aye Celestianpower FireFox, karmafist? karmafist No problems here FireFox What if there is only one of that letter FireFox Like WP:ESP/U FireFox We just keep it yes? karmafist Firefox: There may be more later Celestianpower Then its just a redirect, surely? FireFox Yes, it is a redirect Celestianpower disambig when it becomes populated FireFox Ok that's fune FireFox *fine Celestianpower Cool karmafist Works for me Celestianpower Moving on Titoxd me too Celestianpower "To create new goal: to help in a particular area of Wikipedia" is the next item Celestianpower I have no idea what this means FireFox Who put that down on the list Celestianpower Does anyone have any ideas? karmafist Celestianpower: It sounds like a group collaborative deal, ala the COTW Celestianpower FireFox: It was WikiZach FireFox Thought so Titoxd I had already proposed something like that Titoxd so I think it is a good idea FireFox Well seeing as he tried taking Jimbo Wales to the arb com... karmafist Perhaps we start our own COTW in regards to an article Celestianpower karmafist: That's already a program bu8t not an active one Titoxd and we also have a much-neglected Esperanzian Drive FireFox What exactly does it mean... "To create new goal: to help in a particular area of Wikipedia"? Celestianpower I really don't know Titoxd to help in article-writing, I presume... karmafist aha, my bad, perhaps we should take this agenda point to discuss restarting the Drive/COTW-esque program issue? Celestianpower I've never really liked that idea karmafist a ESP specific COTW? Why not? Celestianpower I mean, we all know about different things and it'd be difficult to find any topic that we could work together on karmafist It doesn't matter whether we know about it or not, we could add things(grammar, links, etc.) Celestianpower karmafist: I mean, I don't mind having it there but I just think it'd be neglected Celestianpower As it is now Titoxd give out barnstars liberally, then :) Celestianpower Yes Celestianpower That's a good one ;) karmafist Celestianpower: It probably would, and I don't think it's pressing, I'm just saying it's not a bad idea Celestianpower Yeah Celestianpower Is anyone willing to spearhead it? Celestianpower I'll take that as a no? karmafist Heck, I'd love to see promoting "Friendly Edit Wars" as well, people going back and forth, building upon each other despite disagreements and debating what to do towards a potential consensus karmafist I will, but not right now. Celestianpower Okay karmafist I have too much on my plate to do it justice. karmafist Let's put it back on the backburner Celestianpower karmafist: Yes karmafist alright. Moving on? Celestianpower FireFox, Titoxd? Agreed? FireFox Sure Titoxd ok Celestianpower " Rules/Process of voting for upcoming Advisory committee elections (approval, one vote, rank in order of prefrence, etc...}" is next Titoxd er... what can /we/ do about that one? Celestianpower I really like the current approval voting system karmafist It's already worked fine several times. FireFox Me too Titoxd ah FireFox Although... Titoxd never mind, I read ArbCom :P Celestianpower Titoxd: lol Celestianpower FireFox: Although? FireFox Should the 5 of us refrain from voting Celestianpower FireFox: I think so Titoxd we actually do karmafist voting for ourselves? Celestianpower karmafist: No, for others Celestianpower Seeing as we're in the Adv Council karmafist ah. I'd have to be neutral on that. Celestianpower Okay Titoxd it's the Neutrality Precedent set by Essjay/Redwolf24/JCarriker Celestianpower Yes FireFox Ok good Celestianpower Can Flcelloguy and karmafist run again? FireFox I'm happy with that karmafist I see that as for Advisory Generals Celestianpower And RN/Bratsche fot that matter? Titoxd I don't see why not Celestianpower And Acetic Acid Titoxd and Redwolf and Essjay karmafist Sure, no reason for term limits. Make it bigger if we need more views. 7 would be fine. Celestianpower Yep Celestianpower karmafist: Huh? Celestianpower Oh I see Celestianpower nm karmafist 7 members, I assume that's why you discussed term limits Celestianpower So, at the end of Feb, karmafist and Flcelloguy can run agian Celestianpower But none of us can vote karmafist I'll accept that. Celestianpower And it will be approval voting Celestianpower All agreed? Celestianpower Titoxd and FireFox? FireFox Yes Titoxd yes Celestianpower Next up Celestianpower New Idea I just got the idea of an Esperanza Newsletter! I would like to see what the Adv. Committee thinks about that. FireFox I need to go in 20 minutes Celestianpower FireFox: We should be done by then FireFox Ok Celestianpower On the issue of the newsletter Celestianpower We have spam karmafist Celestianpower: I thought we already did that, in regards to the spamout Celestianpower Yeah Celestianpower That was my thought karmafist just a regular spam? That's a good idea Celestianpower Yep Celestianpower I'm planning to spam more often karmafist k Celestianpower All in favour of a regular spam? FireFox and Titoxd ? Titoxd sure FireFox Yes Celestianpower Cool Celestianpower Once a month? Celestianpower That'd be enough? Titoxd fortnightly? FireFox I would say once every 2 weeks FireFox Just after this meeting FireFox Then we could inform everyone else of the main changes etc Celestianpower FireFox: Umm, I just sent out spam ;) karmafist no opinion here, i'd have one after seeing how it goes.] FireFox Celestianpower: Starting in 2 weeks Celestianpower Yes Celestianpower Sounds good Celestianpower So, every 2 weeks, starting in two weeks? Celestianpower All agreed? karmafist yep Titoxd aye Celestianpower Koolio Celestianpower Okay Celestianpower 2 more points to cover Celestianpower "A discussion on the suggestions at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Possibles, a list of possible programs to introduce, to speed up the process of accepting/rejecting these ideas." Celestianpower I certainly agree that the process needs speeding up Titoxd they're linked from the main page now, aren't they? Celestianpower Any specific thoughts? Celestianpower Titoxd: They are Celestianpower Does it need to be me who accepts/rejects them? Celestianpower Or can any of us 5 do it? Celestianpower FireFox, karmafist and Titoxd? karmafist Let's just let any of us do it, and if we disagree, we hold off on action until the next meeting Titoxd sure Celestianpower Okay FireFox yup Celestianpower Right karmafist cool Celestianpower Moving on? karmafist k Celestianpower Right Celestianpower "Clerks in the ArbCom. seem to have a good effect, should we have some to help organize the agenda and be kind of like 'assistants' of the committee members. I guess they would do stuff such as checking for vandalism. Again, just an idea." Celestianpower I'm against this one Titoxd that's outside our scope Celestianpower I think that if we want people like this, we should elect them to the Council full time FireFox brb karmafist It is, although I agree with CP. It seems to be created just to keep Kelly Martin in the loop. Celestianpower Yeah Celestianpower That was my feeling karmafist It's a good idea in theory, but it was created under bad pretenses, and has a few people in there with mindsets that aren't good to keep around the arbcom Titoxd argh, I misread it again... I thought that it said that that Esperanza should help the ArbCom Celestianpower But thus we diverge Celestianpower In fact, shopuld we enlarge the committee? FireFox Yeah I am back Celestianpower FireFox: Read up, you didn't miss much ;) FireFox I have karmafist yes, what is the matter of discussion here? Enlarging the Clerk Committee? Making a similiar Clerk committee for our Advisory Council? Celestianpower I think that a clerk committee for us is redundant Celestianpower But I like the idea of adding another position to the Adv. Council Celestianpower Seeing as thewre are now 200 members of Esperanza karmafist No argument here. We could use a secretary. Celestianpower Titoxd, FireFox? FireFox To come into effect from when Celestianpower Do we want to enlarge the committee to fit with the next elections? Titoxd clerk commitee: not a good idea Celestianpower Instead of electing 2, we elect three Titoxd enlarging the AC, it sounds good Celestianpower Titoxd: Yeah - we got rid of that idea already Titoxd we would need to elect four, though Celestianpower Titoxd: We would? Titoxd to keep an odd number of members in the AC karmafist sure. So, we're talking about expanding the AC to 7 in total now, as well as electing a clerk? Titoxd if we have evens, we could have deadlocks FireFox yes Celestianpower Good point Celestianpower karmafist: No clerk Celestianpower Just 6 adv,. council members + me karmafist Celestianpower: I thought we didn't like the committee idea. What's wrong with a secretary/clerk to assist the AC? Celestianpower karmafist: No, we have a committee at the moment Titoxd karmafist: we think it's unnecessary. At least I do : Celestianpower Yes, not enought work for a position to be viable Titoxd besides, if any member needs to talk to the AC, there's no need to channel them through a secretary, they can just ask any of us karmafist Titoxd: Perhaps, but it doesn't hurt things. Celestianpower karmafist: Wew're talking about adding 2 places to the Council Titoxd karmafist: I think it does hurt things... it just makes us seem more unreachable, when we really aren't karmafist Titoxd: No, I'm talking about communication, i'm talking about helping us organize Celestianpower Well, I don't like the idea karmafist like an "assistant" Celestianpower We're criticised of too much beaurocracy already karmafist by who? karmafist The mailing list? Who cares about them? Titoxd well, I think it is a solution looking for a problem. I don't see much disorganization, and the one that exists can be easily fixed Celestianpower karmafist: By general Wikipedians Celestianpower The one's I've talked to about us Celestianpower I'm with Titoxd karmafist Celestianpower: You can show me the diffs later, we're getting off topic Celestianpower Yeah FireFox I need to go now Celestianpower Shall we carry the idea of expansion over then to next meeting? karmafist Ok, so 7(6+the AG) is fine with all? Titoxd ok... bye, FireFox Celestianpower Bye FireFox! Titoxd karmafist: yes karmafist later Firefox! FireFox Bye karmafist wonderful, just wanted to check <--| FireFox has left #wikipedia-esperanza-meeting Celestianpower karmafist: We're forgetting FL karmafist Celestianpower: I thought all in attendance was implied there, but I apologize for the miscommunication Celestianpower Oh sorry Celestianpower Well, perhaps we should discuss it again in 2 weeks Titoxd well, we will have a log, right? Celestianpower I feel a bit rash deciding now karmafist as long as it's before the election, we want to avoid what happened with the arbcom election Celestianpower Yes Celestianpower Next meeting is Saturday in 13 days Celestianpower 11th Feb Celestianpower All able to make that? Titoxd not sure yet, but I hope I can Celestianpower Titoxd: Okay Celestianpower karmafist? karmafist I support it, and I think we should see what FL thinks, but even if he disagrees, it's 1 versus 4, so let's wait, but understand it's a side thing. Celestianpower Okay karmafist I believe so, but can't guarantee. Celestianpower Okay Celestianpower Well, that wraps it up, nless we have other issues to discuss? karmafist I have none Celestianpower Titoxd? Titoxd well, there's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Esperanza/Proposals#Kindness_campaign.2FEsperanza , but I'd like for it to be discussed with FF here Celestianpower Okay Celestianpower I'll put that on the carried forward section Titoxd or over on the Esperanza talk page, preferably Celestianpower I'll just write up the conclusions of the meeting karmafist excellent Titoxd as I don't know which Esperanzians are members of the KC too, and they should be the ones helping us decide karmafist why not just invite anyone to come to these meetings? karmafist If we need specific council consensus, we call for a vote karmafist and "bang the gavel" if things get out of control karmafist Let the KC members come in here next time. Is that ok? karmafist Well, KC, and anyone who's interested, that is karmafist ... karmafist Titoxd? Celestianpower? Titoxd I'm not sure Titoxd that's something we can discuss in #wikipedia-esperanza Celestianpower 1). Valentines Ball in IRC planned for Valentines day, Tuesday 14th February.
2). Clarifying sentence about charter ammendmants to be added to the charter. 3). Titoxd to add another point to WP:ESP/SYJ 4). Continue to use 2 coaches in the Admin Coaching program. 5). NPA eform is to keep simmering. 6). Shortcuts are all going to be WP:ESP/... and Celestianpower is going to go on a frenzy creating them. If a shortcut has two possibilities, it will be a disambig. Like WP:ESP/P. 7). Karmafist will spearhead the Esperanza drive when his schedule gets freer 8). Next election: Voting system will be the same and candidates can run again. 9). Spam every 2 weeks, starting in two weeks 10). Clerks idea rejected but possibility to make Council bigger
Celestianpower That all? Celestianpower karmafist, Titoxd? Titoxd I thought we had agreed to make it bigger :) Celestianpower Titoxd: No, that's to be carried over till next meeting Titoxd but then, that requires a change in the charter, so a full vote may be required... Celestianpower Yes Celestianpower I suppose karmafist Titoxd: lol, it got a little jumbled there. We need just a tad of bureaucracy for clarity next time perhaps ;-) Titoxd ok, it looks fine to me :) Celestianpower Cool Celestianpower I'll post it karmafist that's fine with me. Also, the opening these meetings to anyone topic. I'm for it and Titoxd is opposed it seems karmafist CP? Titoxd not really opposed, just I think we could accomplish more by doing it in the public channel Celestianpower I don't think these meetings should be public karmafist ok, we can table that then. motion to adjourn? karmafist Celestianpower? Titoxd? Celestianpower Yes Titoxd aye Celestianpower Meeting adjourned Celestianpower Thank you everyone! karmafist Cool. Great meeting guys. Titoxd :) karmafist no prob :-) Titoxd So, where's the log going to be posted? Celestianpower I'm doing it now Celestianpower WP:ESP/ACM2
