Wikipedia:Esperanza/Advisory Committee Meeting August 2006/log
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Notes from the council:
Quoting EWS23, for the whole council: I'd like to take this time to point out to all members that all ideas are welcome on the proposals page, and just because we archive something for the time being doesn't mean it was a horrible idea, or that your effort isn't appreciated.
[3:23:25 PM] * Natalya has changed the chat topic to "Welcome, everyone // This meeting is actually publically logged, since it is starting"
[3:23:34 PM] Natalya says: Still no topic warring, but I took that part out ;)
[3:23:50 PM] Daniel says: :)
[3:23:50 PM] Natalya says: But anyway,we'll get started, and hopefully Tito will show up mid-meeting
[3:23:58 PM] Daniel says: hopefully.
[3:24:11 PM] * Eric waves to the people reading the log
[3:24:13 PM] Natalya says: Welcome to the first ever seven-person Council (now that it is officially the council) meeting!
[3:24:25 PM] * Daniel waves
[3:24:31 PM] * Celestianpower whoops
[3:24:40 PM] * Eric waves to the people reading the log again, since Natalya's message should be the first in the log
[3:24:45 PM] * Natalya coughs :)
[3:24:48 PM] * freakofnurture flinches
[3:24:58 PM] * Daniel blows kisses to his fans and waits for the meeting to commence.
[3:25:00 PM] * FireFox also waves
[3:25:06 PM] Natalya says: There are actually more things on the agenda that what's on the page (I know you're all excited)
[3:25:20 PM] Eric says: zOMG, secret cabal agenda!
[3:25:21 PM] FireFox says: :O
[3:25:29 PM] Daniel says: good good.
[3:25:32 PM] * Celestianpower puts on shocked face
[3:25:33 PM] * Natalya forgot to put them on
[3:25:44 PM] * Celestianpower tuts disapprovingly to Natalya
[3:25:54 PM] freakofnurture says: put what on
[3:26:01 PM] freakofnurture says: nevermind
[3:26:07 PM] Daniel says: let's pretend to know guys.
[3:26:08 PM] Natalya says: The other agenda things!
[3:26:11 PM] Natalya says: :)
[3:26:16 PM] * Daniel nods and knows all about it.
[3:26:21 PM] Natalya says: First, about welcoming new users to Esperanza
[3:26:32 PM] Natalya says: It seems to be done kind of randomly; some get welcomed, some don't
[3:26:41 PM] Daniel says: indeed.
[3:26:44 PM] Natalya says: But that welcome template is rather nice, and a good introduction once people join
[3:26:56 PM] Celestianpower says: Hear hear!
[3:27:01 PM] Natalya says: It would be nice to make sure that everyone gets welcomed
[3:27:04 PM] * Daniel puts up hand.
[3:27:13 PM] freakofnurture says: bot
[3:27:17 PM] * Natalya hopes she doesn't have to call on everyone
[3:27:25 PM] Natalya says: Could a bot do it?
[3:27:41 PM] freakofnurture says: easily enough
[3:27:49 PM] Natalya says: ...though it is always nice to have another Esperanza member put it on
[3:27:55 PM] * Celestianpower forcibly puts Daniel's hand down, before it gets tired
[3:27:57 PM] * Daniel agrees
[3:28:04 PM] Daniel says: more personal
[3:28:07 PM] FireFox says: An actual person is more personal than a bot
[3:28:17 PM] Natalya says: I was just thinking along the lines of having people who were interested make themselves known so it was semi-official, and they would feel obligagted to keep up to date
[3:28:18 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes, I agree with FireFox
[3:28:26 PM] freakofnurture says: perhaps a bot to catch ones that the humans don't notice
[3:28:34 PM] Eric says: Natalya: Makes sense.
[3:28:41 PM] Eric says: We could have a list of volunteers who will do it.
[3:28:50 PM] Daniel says: sounds good
[3:28:51 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: Would that put off others though?
[3:28:55 PM] Eric says: And then the Council could serve as a backup to that, just in case.
[3:28:56 PM] FireFox says: If we need a bot at all, it could list the users who haven't been welcomed on some page
[3:28:57 PM] Daniel says: people like volunteering for things.
[3:29:17 PM] Celestianpower says: FireFox: TangoTango can do those sorts of pages
[3:29:18 PM] Natalya says: Would it make sense to have it be another program, or just listed on the members page (or elsewhere?)
[3:29:22 PM] Daniel says: one thing though
[3:29:26 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: Yes
[3:29:29 PM] Natalya says: FireFox (and CP): That would be helpful
[3:29:34 PM] Daniel says: if a couple fall through the cracks, are they going to be offended?
[3:29:43 PM] Celestianpower says: And Daniel is right: Poeple like volunteering for things.
[3:29:46 PM] Eric says: Natalya: No need to make it a full-fledged program, I think.
[3:29:47 PM] Daniel says: most people do not expect a welcome to a wikiproject.
[3:29:53 PM] FireFox says: helpful yes, but I wouldn't be able to make the bot :P
[3:29:54 PM] Natalya says: Some are already falling through the cracks, I don't think they're offended yet
[3:30:16 PM] Natalya says: But this way, hopefully no one will
[3:30:23 PM] Daniel says: yes
[3:30:25 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[3:30:40 PM] Natalya says: We could have a list on the members page then, and ask people to sign up if they want to be responsible for welcoming new members
[3:30:42 PM] Eric says: We can put the volunteers list on the member page and/or with the welcome template.
[3:30:48 PM] Natalya says: :)
[3:31:04 PM] Daniel says: there is another thing
[3:31:10 PM] Natalya says: FireFox: You think TangoTango could make some kind of page for people who were missed?
[3:31:19 PM] FireFox says: maybe, he's good at that
[3:31:21 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: That will also spur people on more to volunteer: having their name in lights on a popular page
[3:31:30 PM] Natalya says: Very true :)
[3:31:34 PM] Daniel says: could we perhaps put a line on the members page encouraging new members to drop a line on the talk page and say hi and introduce themselves?
[3:31:42 PM] freakofnurture says: text-decoration:blink;
[3:31:43 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: Hey! I suggested TangoTango :P
[3:32:05 PM] Celestianpower says: Daniel: That's a good idea too
[3:32:06 PM] Eric says: Daniel: We could put that on the welcome template. :)
[3:32:13 PM] Natalya says: CP: Sorry! I'll giv eyou both credit then
[3:32:18 PM] Celestianpower says: :P
[3:32:21 PM] Natalya says: Eric: Good idea!
[3:32:23 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: I'm kidding
[3:32:24 PM] Daniel says: Eric: yeah
[3:32:35 PM] Natalya says: Lovely. So, it looks like the deal is:
[3:33:27 PM] * Celestianpower is on the edge of his seat for the anticipation
[3:33:39 PM] Natalya says: 1) Create a space on the members page for people who want to welcome new members, 2) Encourage people to add themeslves to that list if they want to do it, 3) Add a bit to the welcome template to encourage new members to introduce themselves, and 4) Talk to TangoTango (thanks CP, and Firefox) about making a page to list new members who haven't been welcomed
[3:33:45 PM] Natalya says: CP: Sorry, it took a while to type ;)
[3:33:56 PM] * FireFox is drinking Tango right now
[3:34:05 PM] * Daniel didn't want to interrupt. glares at CP.
[3:34:13 PM] Celestianpower says: Daniel: lol
[3:34:20 PM] Celestianpower says: FireFox: Lucky sod
[3:34:21 PM] Natalya says: I can certainly take care of 1-3, and would be glad to talk to TangoTango too, unless anyone wants to
[3:34:27 PM] Daniel says: oh well, not sure what the thing is, but i say "ate" to all of that.
- )
[3:34:33 PM] FireFox says: Celestianpower: In all fairness, you took twice as long to type out stuff like that when you were admin gen ;)
[3:34:37 PM] Daniel says: make that *aye]
[3:34:47 PM] Celestianpower says: Anyway, I say "aye" to what nATALYA SAID
[3:34:51 PM] Celestianpower says: -caps
[3:35:04 PM] Eric says: Aye.
[3:35:06 PM] Celestianpower says: FireFox: Just a bit of friendly heckling
[3:35:12 PM] Daniel says: Aye minus the typos for me.
[3:35:15 PM] Celestianpower says: Break in the new esteemed leader
[3:35:15 PM] * Eric likes saying aye
[3:35:23 PM] Daniel says: Aye aye Eric.
[3:35:24 PM] FireFox says: lol
[3:35:31 PM] * FireFox dislikes saying aye
[3:35:31 PM] Natalya says: I don't think I want to be broken in...
[3:35:39 PM] Eric says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aye_aye ?
[3:35:55 PM] Daniel says: A wiki article..? lol
[3:35:59 PM] Daniel says: what's next?
[3:36:00 PM] FireFox says: CapnCr..? or maybe not..
[3:36:12 PM] Natalya says: Do I officially need "Aye's" from everyone?
[3:36:18 PM] Daniel says: not officially.
[3:36:19 PM] * FireFox doesn't say aye
[3:36:26 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: That's what I did
[3:36:29 PM] Daniel says: they're just ayes really, nothing in it.
[3:36:32 PM] Natalya says: Okay good. General agreement should suffice then :)
[3:36:36 PM] Natalya says: Next!
[3:36:40 PM] Celestianpower says: But feel free to set your own trend
[3:36:56 PM] Natalya says: General ayeing around the table and no disagreements should be good
[3:36:58 PM] Eric says: No objections = agreement
[3:37:06 PM] Natalya says: Yep!
[3:37:10 PM] * Eric eyes the table
[3:37:17 PM] * Celestianpower laughs at ayeing
[3:37:21 PM] Natalya says: Now we have approving proposed programs
[3:37:26 PM] * Natalya cues everyone to go to the proposals page
[3:37:33 PM] Natalya says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Esperanza/Proposals
[3:37:42 PM] * Daniel cues someone to link it
[3:37:45 PM] Daniel says: ah, ty
[3:37:58 PM] Celestianpower says: Daniel: lol
[3:38:12 PM] Natalya says: Already before you on that one :)
[3:38:35 PM] * Daniel started typing and decided to finish his message regardless.
[3:38:44 PM] * Daniel reads page.
[3:38:51 PM] freakofnurture says: hmm, a number of them suck
[3:38:52 PM] * Celestianpower prods Natalya to take each in turn, asking for opinions ;)
[3:38:54 PM] Natalya says: I'd like to go through the list, and find the ones that are both good to make into programs, and ones that have been sufficiently debated and found to not be feasable at the moment, and then archive them
[3:39:01 PM] * Natalya needs to learn to type faster
[3:39:04 PM] Celestianpower says: :)
[3:39:21 PM] Natalya says: Lets start with Appreciation Week, then: thoughts?
[3:39:24 PM] * Eric likes Appreciation week
[3:39:34 PM] Celestianpower says: As do I, but I'm not sure how it would work
[3:39:43 PM] Natalya says: Ditto to what CP said
[3:39:44 PM] Celestianpower says: It would take a lot of leadership organisation
[3:39:51 PM] * Daniel apologises, since he was asking Natalya a question in pm which probably slowed her down.
[3:39:53 PM] FireFox says: It's our job :)
[3:39:56 PM] * Daniel likes it too, but isn't sure.
[3:39:58 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[3:40:12 PM] Natalya says: One worry would be that it would be hard to find 52 groups to appreciate
[3:40:24 PM] freakofnurture says: we wouldn't want to
[3:40:26 PM] Natalya says: Unless it didn't run the whole year round (or something)
[3:40:34 PM] * Eric thinks Natalya should read the proposal ;)
[3:40:41 PM] Natalya says: WAIT
[3:40:49 PM] * Natalya feels sillly for at least the third time
[3:40:51 PM] FireFox says: :D
[3:40:53 PM] Celestianpower says: But it could be great fun - we could get in some decorators (HTML wizards) for the main page, IRC parties, barnstar pushes
[3:41:11 PM] Daniel says: one thing though
[3:41:13 PM] Celestianpower says: Games on the talk page
[3:41:32 PM] Daniel says: if it become a big "fad" which gets too popular, it could start to appear on multiple talk pages
[3:41:39 PM] Celestianpower says: A real celebratory atmosphere
[3:41:46 PM] Eric says: Not sure the general public would go for such a self-reference on the main page.
[3:41:48 PM] Daniel says: which would make it, if it looks uniform, appear impersonal and annnoy.
[3:41:54 PM] Celestianpower says: Daniel: I meant WP:ESP
[3:42:10 PM] Eric says: Ah.
[3:42:10 PM] Natalya says: Even if it was run by Esperanza, we'd still want to appreciate those outside of it though, no?
[3:42:16 PM] Eric says: Of course.
[3:42:35 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: es
[3:42:39 PM] Celestianpower says: *Yes
[3:42:46 PM] Daniel says: of course.
[3:42:47 PM] Celestianpower says: We could ask everyone to bring a friend
[3:42:54 PM] Celestianpower says: Make their own personal invitations
[3:43:01 PM] Eric says: I think we could promote it on the Signpost.
[3:43:01 PM] Daniel says: lol
[3:43:03 PM] freakofnurture says: appreciation should not be calendar-based
[3:43:15 PM] Celestianpower says: EWS: Yes
[3:43:16 PM] * Natalya things CP should head up the project, as he is so enthusaistic
[3:43:20 PM] Natalya says: (If we think it would work, of course)
[3:43:26 PM] Daniel says: *off topic, let the record reflect that "Daniel" is "Banes"*
[3:43:38 PM] Natalya says: Freak: True! We should always be appreciative.
[3:43:39 PM] Celestianpower says: Daniel: Sorry
[3:43:48 PM] Daniel says: CP??
[3:43:58 PM] Celestianpower says: Daniel: For calling you Daniel :)
[3:44:01 PM] freakofnurture says: bear in mind the staleness of that proposal
[3:44:05 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[3:44:06 PM] * Daniel was just saying it for the log since he just realized he was named Daniel
[3:44:13 PM] FireFox says: *realised
[3:44:15 PM] Celestianpower says: But we could mae it much better than it was proposed
[3:44:17 PM] FireFox says: :P
[3:44:18 PM] Daniel says: CP np, that wasn't what i meant lol.
[3:44:27 PM] Daniel says: FireFox: :@
[3:44:28 PM] Daniel says: :P
[3:44:31 PM] Natalya says: Aha! I have an idea
[3:44:57 PM] * Daniel is dying to hear it.
[3:44:59 PM] Celestianpower says: Just "Apreciation of how great the Wikipedia community is"
[3:45:10 PM] * freakofnurture is dying in general
[3:45:19 PM] Natalya says: We could leave it on the proposals page for now, and encourage fleshing out of it in more specifics before making it official
[3:45:27 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: Yes
[3:45:27 PM] Daniel says: good idea.
[3:45:40 PM] Daniel says: this meeting is already going to generate some publicity, if people read this log.
[3:45:43 PM] Celestianpower says: I could "re-invent" it there, move it to the bottom, etc.
[3:45:58 PM] Celestianpower says: (since I'm apparently going to spearhead it
[3:46:00 PM] Celestianpower says: )
[3:46:04 PM] Eric says: I think we need some sort of intermediary designation between "approved" and "archived"
[3:46:13 PM] Eric says: Like "in development"
[3:46:25 PM] Natalya says: That's a pretty good idea
[3:46:46 PM] freakofnurture says: "shelved"
[3:46:56 PM] Natalya says: Freak: More active then that :)
[3:47:01 PM] freakofnurture says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelved
[3:47:12 PM] Celestianpower says: lol
[3:47:18 PM] Celestianpower says: In development is good
[3:47:27 PM] Daniel says: yes tis
[3:47:34 PM] Natalya says: One thing,
[3:47:35 PM] Celestianpower says: Unless someone else wants to, I can get to work on that one
[3:47:45 PM] * Celestianpower is actually quite buzzing about it :)
[3:47:50 PM] Natalya says: How to deisgnate when to move something from "Propose" to "in development"
[3:47:55 PM] * Natalya is excited that CP is so excited
[3:48:04 PM] Daniel says: Natalya: our own discretion?
[3:48:11 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: The Council decides
[3:48:11 PM] Eric says: Natalya: Via the council.
[3:48:19 PM] Natalya says: Well that pretty much sums it up :D
[3:48:20 PM] Daniel says: we should try not to make it too complicated.
[3:48:23 PM] Natalya says: Sounds good.
[3:48:24 PM] Eric says: Basically it means, "We think this is a good idea, but it needs more details/planning/etc."
[3:48:48 PM] Daniel says: question: the council? can we each act independantly on this sort of thing?
[3:48:49 PM] Natalya says: Will it only be done after we meet, then?
[3:48:56 PM] Natalya says: (What Daniel said)
[3:49:03 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[3:49:11 PM] Natalya says: Yes to which?
[3:49:15 PM] Celestianpower says: lol
[3:49:17 PM] Daniel says: CP?
[3:49:25 PM] Celestianpower says: It'll be done after the meeting
[3:49:33 PM] Natalya says: Sound good to everyone?
[3:49:43 PM] Eric says: Eye.
[3:49:44 PM] Celestianpower says: Aye
[3:49:50 PM] * Daniel thinks the council would be more effective if each member is "empowered" to make these sort of descisions, since they are not controversial.
[3:49:58 PM] Celestianpower says: Daniel: Yes
[3:50:02 PM] * Celestianpower agrees with Daniel
[3:50:09 PM] * Natalya likes that better too
[3:50:14 PM] * Celestianpower feels like a nodding dog :)
[3:50:18 PM] Daniel says: try to cut down on the b thingy with funny vowels in it.
[3:50:24 PM] Natalya says: And then, there would probably be less bureuacratic complaining too :)
[3:50:28 PM] Celestianpower says: hehe
[3:50:42 PM] * Celestianpower bangs Natalya and Daniel's heads together
[3:50:46 PM] Eric says: Daniel: True, though I'd recommend that you at least discuss it with one or two other council members, to make sure you're not going insane.
[3:50:55 PM] Celestianpower says: EWS: Good idea
[3:50:57 PM] Daniel says: Eric: yes of course, if there is doubt.
[3:50:59 PM] Celestianpower says: On the talk page
[3:51:09 PM] Celestianpower says: Has everyone watchlisted it?
[3:51:11 PM] Daniel says: but for the most part this isn't that serious
[3:51:23 PM] Natalya says: The proposals talk page, I assume?
[3:51:24 PM] Daniel says: brb
[3:51:25 PM] freakofnurture says: this could turn frenetic like featured picture candidates (uggh)
[3:51:56 PM] Celestianpower says: Freak: For those of us whom have nothing to do with FPC, could you please extrapolate?
[3:52:00 PM] Eric says: Well, hopefully after this meeting the proposals page will be much more slim and managable.
[3:52:16 PM] Natalya says: It might be better to just chat about it informally, though
[3:52:25 PM] Celestianpower says: On this Skype chat
[3:52:39 PM] Celestianpower says: Any time, just pop in and whoever is here will answer
[3:52:40 PM] Natalya says: I would worry that if we discussed it on the proposals talk page, people would feel like we were excuding regular members
[3:52:50 PM] Celestianpower says: That's what the skype idea was for
[3:52:50 PM] Natalya says: Since it saves the message!!!
[3:52:55 PM] * Natalya loves Skype right now
[3:53:03 PM] Natalya says: That is a great idea
[3:53:04 PM] * Celestianpower has loved Skype for ages
[3:53:23 PM] * freakofnurture scrolls down further
[3:53:25 PM] Daniel says: back, brother coming along and going on trying to convince me to sign a petition come up with by Bertie the 13yr old terrier.
[3:53:31 PM] * Daniel loves skype too (inlove)
[3:53:38 PM] Natalya says: Okay, so, summing up that rather long discussion (I'll work on making it short so it doesn't take as long)
[3:54:22 PM] Daniel says: sorry to interrupt, but am i right in saying this is the place to converse or ask for an opinion of a fellow councillor?
[3:54:28 PM] Natalya says: The "In Developement" section will be create for the proposals page (by CP), Appreciation Week will be added to it, and brief discussion will go on on Skype for any counciler who wants to move a proposals to "In development"
[3:54:33 PM] Celestianpower says: Daniel: Yes
[3:54:46 PM] Natalya says: Daniel: Most certainly
[3:54:50 PM] Daniel says: great :)
[3:55:05 PM] * Daniel says aye
[3:55:09 PM] Celestianpower says: This should be where the Council is in constant consultation
[3:55:13 PM] * Celestianpower ayes too
[3:55:18 PM] Daniel says: awesome
[3:55:20 PM] Eric says: Aye aye, Cap'n.
[3:55:35 PM] * freakofnurture is irc-centric, however
[3:55:47 PM] * Daniel cannot get on irc half the time though.
[3:56:02 PM] Daniel says: i think some of us should always tend to the flock and be on irc too though
[3:56:04 PM] Daniel says: of course
[3:56:22 PM] Celestianpower says: I'm nearly always idling on both :)
[3:56:24 PM] Natalya says: Freak: If you don't get on here often, I'm sure we can always mention something on IRC if there's a discussion going on
[3:56:25 PM] * Daniel would like to note that he does not consider the EA membership to be comparable to sheep.
[3:56:41 PM] * Eric is glad Daniel made that clarification
[3:56:45 PM] Celestianpower says: lol
[3:57:03 PM] Celestianpower says: Flock is a term of endearment :)
[3:57:03 PM] Daniel says: :D
[3:57:07 PM] Natalya says: Okay, (not to break the conversation), next we have the Interwiki user welcome
[3:57:08 PM] Celestianpower says: All fluffy and whatnot
[3:57:16 PM] freakofnurture says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Baa.jpg
[3:57:30 PM] Eric says: I think we should put the interwiki user welcome at the end of the meeting, at the small hope that Titoxd comes along.
[3:57:32 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: Needs more fleshing out and discussion
[3:57:37 PM] Celestianpower says: I don't have an opinion yet
[3:57:53 PM] * Daniel doesn't really know much about what it is about so has no opinion either.
[3:57:55 PM] Celestianpower says: EWS: Good idea
[3:57:58 PM] freakofnurture says: skip it
[3:58:03 PM] Natalya says: Leave it in proposals then for now, and hope Tito shows up then.
[3:58:10 PM] Natalya says: Sandbox patrolling for new users!
[3:58:19 PM] Celestianpower says: Sounds like a bad idea to me
[3:58:21 PM] * Daniel does that already.
[3:58:31 PM] Celestianpower says: Boring, thankless work
[3:58:32 PM] * Daniel thinks it could just get messy.
[3:58:37 PM] Celestianpower says: Messy with all of the vandals
[3:58:44 PM] Daniel says: not all tasks are glorious CP
[3:58:46 PM] * Celestianpower wouldn't want to do it personally
[3:58:53 PM] Eric says: I think it falls into the category of, "Feel free to do that on your own, it could be a good thing, but no need for a full-fledged program on it."
[3:58:58 PM] Celestianpower says: But if others are, more power to you"
[3:59:00 PM] freakofnurture says: exactly
[3:59:04 PM] Celestianpower says: What EWS says
[3:59:05 PM] Natalya says: Eric: Good description
[3:59:06 PM] Celestianpower says: *said
[3:59:10 PM] Daniel says: what is there to co-ordinate that requires a program page?
[3:59:19 PM] Celestianpower says: Daniel: Nothing :)
[3:59:26 PM] Natalya says: Be right back (sorry!)
[3:59:34 PM] Celestianpower says: Hhe
[3:59:35 PM] * Daniel is aghast
[3:59:37 PM] Celestianpower says: *Hehe
[3:59:45 PM] * Eric twidles thumbs
[3:59:47 PM] * Daniel will have to sing in the interim.
[4:00:05 PM] * Daniel plays Jazz Jackrabbit 2 and remains silent so as to avoid clogging the logs.
[4:00:14 PM] Celestianpower says: lol
[4:00:21 PM] Celestianpower says: The log is very long already :)
[4:00:47 PM] Natalya says: Sorry!!
[4:01:00 PM] Natalya says: Okay, moving that one to the archives
[4:01:02 PM] Eric says: zOMG, you were gone a full minute!
[4:01:07 PM] Natalya says: I ran :)
[4:01:16 PM] Daniel says: :)
[4:01:21 PM] Celestianpower says: Right, next Natalya?
[4:01:25 PM] Natalya says: Former Wikipedian Reinvitation
[4:01:35 PM] Natalya says: I really like the idea behind this one
[4:01:36 PM] Celestianpower says: Looks like it has landslide support
[4:01:40 PM] freakofnurture says: we need a Template:Welcomeback template
[4:01:59 PM] Celestianpower says: We need someone to spearhead it
[4:02:05 PM] * Daniel thinks that should be handled with care
[4:02:09 PM] Celestianpower says: Move to "In development"?
[4:02:16 PM] Daniel says: and with tact and a personal touch
[4:02:18 PM] Natalya says: Daniel: Yes, definitly
[4:02:23 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:02:30 PM] Eric says: In development, or approved?
[4:02:34 PM] Daniel says: depending on the nature of the departure
[4:02:40 PM] Celestianpower says: It's got supports, now people need to talk logistics
[4:02:43 PM] FireFox says: Remember some users don't want a fuss when they come back
[4:02:46 PM] Natalya says: If we're going to try and email contact people who have left, we don't want a bunch of users (albeit nice ones) badgering them
[4:02:54 PM] freakofnurture says: the generic template is not well-received in such cases
[4:02:59 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: Yes, we need a speahear
[4:03:03 PM] Celestianpower says: *sp[earhead
[4:03:03 PM] freakofnurture says: here's an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Everyking&diff=68820538&oldid=6 8820419 [4:03:10 PM] Daniel says: what Freakofnurture said
[4:03:20 PM] Natalya says: Definitly
[4:03:22 PM] Natalya says: One question
[4:03:44 PM] Natalya says: Unless I've misinterpreted this proposal too (as I seem good at doing), did it want to go farther than just welcoming back people?
[4:03:57 PM] Eric says: It seems to be that way.
[4:03:59 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: Yes, to actively try to get people back
[4:04:20 PM] freakofnurture says: and keep them from leaving (or being blocked) again
[4:04:26 PM] Natalya says: Yes
[4:04:40 PM] Celestianpower says: I think we need to put it in "In development" for logistical discussion (starting to feel like a stuck record here)
[4:04:42 PM] Natalya says: I'd say in development for now, just because it sounds like it needs lot of planning before it goes into effect
[4:04:47 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:04:48 PM] Daniel says: again, this does need to be very personal
[4:04:48 PM] Natalya says: Heh
[4:04:53 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:04:54 PM] Natalya says: Most agreed
[4:04:59 PM] Daniel says: not the good 'ol generic Esperanza bla bla
[4:05:01 PM] * Eric agrees
[4:05:11 PM] Daniel says: because that has the reverse effect
[4:05:18 PM] Daniel says: and again, does it need a project page?
[4:05:31 PM] Eric says: Okay, so. 1) In development, 2) Needs a leader, 3) Needs to be personal
[4:05:31 PM] Celestianpower says: Daniel: It will do
[4:05:32 PM] Natalya says: Does anyone mind if we put up a notice at the proposal to the effect of what we've been saying about the personalness of it?
[4:05:33 PM] Daniel says: perhaps an alerts-like page listing them
[4:05:53 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: I'll do that when I put it in the development section
[4:06:01 PM] Celestianpower says: Daniel: Yes
[4:06:13 PM] Natalya says: CP: Are you going to take care of all the programs going In Development?
[4:06:14 PM] Celestianpower says: And discussion of (for want of a better word) tactics
[4:06:24 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: Yes, if nobody minds
[4:06:28 PM] Natalya says: I imagine that once this goes in development, all of Esperanza will have lots of good ideas about it
[4:06:44 PM] Celestianpower says: I hope so
[4:06:48 PM] Natalya says: CP: No, it's lovely :) Do you want to archive the archiveable ones too?
[4:06:49 PM] freakofnurture says: imagine all the people...
[4:06:53 PM] * freakofnurture stops singing
[4:06:55 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: Yep, ok
[4:07:04 PM] Natalya says: Thanks, CP
[4:07:05 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya, next!
[4:07:07 PM] Natalya says: Freak: :)
[4:07:08 PM] Eric says: A short preliminary list can be found at User:Phaedriel
[4:07:17 PM] Natalya says: Welcoming Derby (Thanks for keeping me on track, CP)
[4:07:24 PM] Celestianpower says: EWS: Save it for the discussion :)
[4:07:30 PM] Eric says: :)
[4:07:45 PM] freakofnurture says: this one is not likely to see activity
[4:07:47 PM] * Natalya points to the welcoming derby
[4:07:55 PM] FireFox says: not too sure about this one... too much competition?
[4:07:59 PM] Celestianpower says: What Freak said
[4:08:03 PM] Natalya says: Firefox: Yes
[4:08:17 PM] freakofnurture says: um, no, i mean "andy ain't with us anymore"
[4:08:26 PM] * Daniel agrees fully with FireFox
[4:08:34 PM] Natalya says: The competition aspect makes me feel like people would just welcome to get the numbers, not to be welcoming
[4:08:38 PM] * Celestianpower does too
[4:08:52 PM] Eric says: I've always considered quality over quantity for welcoming committee things.
[4:09:01 PM] Natalya says: Most absolutely
[4:09:05 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:09:06 PM] FireFox says: That's why I usually only welcome users who have edited
[4:09:15 PM] Natalya says: Shall we archive it, then?
[4:09:19 PM] Eric says: FireFox: Me too.
[4:09:37 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: I think so
[4:09:46 PM] Celestianpower says: FireFox: Me three
[4:10:04 PM] freakofnurture says: well the user who proposed it is serving an indefinite block
[4:10:09 PM] Natalya says: Did we lose Daniel?
[4:10:42 PM] Celestianpower says: I think we may have
[4:10:48 PM] Natalya says: Hopefully he comes back
[4:10:54 PM] Natalya says: Next! "Straight answers to user questions" Page
[4:11:16 PM] * Daniel was distracted, apologies.
[4:11:17 PM] Celestianpower says: I'm not sure if this is Esperanza's job
[4:11:23 PM] freakofnurture says: definitely not
[4:11:27 PM] Natalya says: As an aside, a searchable FAQ was recently introduced at the help desk
[4:11:29 PM] Daniel says: nee
[4:11:49 PM] * FireFox didn't know that
[4:11:50 PM] Natalya says: http://tools.wikimedia.de/~tangotango/nubio/
[4:11:51 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: Then we'd overlap further
[4:11:59 PM] Natalya says: CP: My thoughts exactly
[4:12:17 PM] Celestianpower says: So another archivable one?
[4:12:22 PM] freakofnurture says: Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. but don't quote us
[4:12:34 PM] Eric says: Arg, BRB
[4:12:40 PM] Natalya says: No wories, Eric
[4:13:04 PM] Natalya says: Archiving that one too, then
[4:13:17 PM] Natalya says: Next is Newbie Navigation
[4:13:33 PM] Celestianpower says: Sounds like another thing that isn't Esperanza's territory
[4:13:39 PM] FireFox says: I read this but didn't really get the jist
[4:13:51 PM] freakofnurture says: yeah, we don't want little stubs being slashdotted by the big E
[4:14:02 PM] Natalya says: The comment that the community portal takes care of similiar things is valid
[4:14:06 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:14:11 PM] * Daniel agrees.
[4:14:14 PM] Celestianpower says: Archive?
[4:14:16 PM] freakofnurture says: it would be chaos
[4:14:20 PM] Natalya says: Yep
[4:14:23 PM] FireFox says: yes
[4:14:36 PM] Natalya says: I'm going to save the Kindness Campaign for later
[4:14:42 PM] Natalya says: So next is Tutorials
[4:14:43 PM] FireFox says: ok
[4:15:03 PM] freakofnurture says: hmm
[4:15:21 PM] Natalya says: I think these could be helpful, personally
[4:15:23 PM] Celestianpower says: Users seem to be doing this on their own
[4:15:26 PM] Natalya says: Yep
[4:15:29 PM] Celestianpower says: Does Esperanza need to be involved?
[4:15:36 PM] Eric says: Back.
[4:15:45 PM] Daniel says: wb
[4:15:48 PM] Celestianpower says: wb
[4:15:48 PM] FireFox says: I don't think it has to necessarily be Esperanza-specific
[4:15:52 PM] Natalya says: We could always list them (with the creators permission, of course), and suggest that anyone with expertise in a field create one
[4:16:00 PM] freakofnurture says: we don't need to be promoting long signatures
[4:16:05 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: Yes, that would work
[4:16:07 PM] Natalya says: Welcome back, Eric
[4:16:15 PM] Natalya says: There are some other good ones, though
[4:16:21 PM] * Celestianpower likes his sig
[4:16:30 PM] Natalya says: Nathanrdotcom has an IRC one which is helpful, and imagine there are more
[4:16:31 PM] * FireFox likes his too
[4:16:43 PM] freakofnurture says: speedy userfy
[4:16:47 PM] FireFox says: Nathan has possibly deleted his whole Esperanza online pages thing
[4:16:49 PM] * Daniel likes his
[4:16:58 PM] FireFox says: Because he left Esperanza didn't he?
[4:17:06 PM] Natalya says: Firefox: Yeah, I put him on the alerts page
[4:18:57 PM] * Daniel agrees
[4:22:03 PM] Natalya says: There seems to be support from the proposals page, but we could leave it there for now
[4:22:04 PM] Celestianpower says: Requests is an instant archive, since it's already at the To Do List
[4:22:08 PM] Natalya says: To see if it gets firmed up anymore
[4:22:15 PM] freakofnurture says: seems rather vague
[4:22:20 PM] Natalya says: CP: Yes. Archive
[4:22:24 PM] Natalya says: Exam Watch
[4:22:29 PM] Daniel says: the To Do List needs some publicity to actually work.
[4:22:50 PM] * Daniel thinks Exam Watch might come under fire
[4:22:59 PM] freakofnurture says: i'm not sure what the objective is here
[4:23:09 PM] Eric says: Seems very similar to the stress page.
[4:23:13 PM] Natalya says: A more specific section that "stressed users", it seems
[4:23:14 PM] Daniel says: since we all have exams in life, having a project for it is impersonal
[4:23:20 PM] Daniel says: pretty much
[4:23:23 PM] freakofnurture says: i mean should we encourage people to be, um, studying instead of editing
[4:23:33 PM] Eric says: lol, Yes.
[4:23:33 PM] Daniel says: and not bombarding them with messages :P
[4:23:48 PM] freakofnurture says: ok, file 13 then
[4:23:51 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:23:52 PM] Natalya says: I think people with exams already put themselves on the stressed users anyway
[4:23:55 PM] Natalya says: Archived, then
[4:24:03 PM] Natalya says: AfD Welcomes and Softening
[4:24:17 PM] * Daniel thinks AFD is as evil as hell itself.
[4:24:46 PM] Natalya says: There seems to be support for this on the page, but it's not very specific
[4:25:02 PM] freakofnurture says: i'm not sure that "frequently civil" is accurate
[4:25:06 PM] * Daniel can't help feeling that EA should avoid getting sucked into those dark and treacherous waters.
[4:25:31 PM] freakofnurture says: amusing sometimes however...
[4:25:32 PM] freakofnurture says: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Comic_Book _Haters&diff=prev&oldid=69234351
[4:25:32 PM] Natalya says: I think it was more about the people whose articles were getting AFDed, not the AFDs themselves
[4:26:04 PM] Daniel says: Natalya: shouldn't that be a more personal thing too? I mean, specific
[4:26:34 PM] Natalya says: Would it not be?
[4:26:36 PM] Daniel says: we wouldn't want to be spamming somebody who recreates articles about his friends over and over.
[4:26:47 PM] Natalya says: Of course not!
[4:26:52 PM] Daniel says: :)
[4:27:01 PM] Eric says: I think this might be a fine idea in general, but I'm not sure it needs a project page.
[4:27:08 PM] Daniel says: what Eric said :)
[4:27:12 PM] Natalya says: It does seem a bit more like a generally Esperanzian thing to do
[4:27:22 PM] Daniel says: howabout this...
[4:27:24 PM] Daniel says: no members list
[4:27:28 PM] Daniel says: but a project page
[4:27:30 PM] Daniel says: for it
[4:27:40 PM] Eric says: I have an idea.
[4:27:43 PM] Natalya says: Or, we could just list it on the current projects page
[4:27:48 PM] Daniel says: and we just have it there with some useful links and a request for users to keep an eye on it.
[4:27:50 PM] Natalya says: But not give it its own page?
[4:27:58 PM] Daniel says: that'd work :)
[4:28:00 PM] Celestianpower says: <<Off-topic>> I've archived the one's we've discussed <<off-topic>>
[4:28:07 PM] Daniel says: good man.
[4:28:11 PM] Natalya says: Many thanks, CP
[4:28:21 PM] Celestianpower says: Since I might have to leave any second
[4:28:21 PM] Eric says: We could have a page about, "Things that are not full-fledged projects but are good ideas of Esperanzial things to do."
[4:28:25 PM] * Natalya waits anxiously for Eric's comment
[4:28:32 PM] Natalya says: Sorry about it going so long, CP
[4:28:33 PM] Celestianpower says: Eric: Fantastic idea!
[4:28:35 PM] * Daniel loves Eric's idea!!!
[4:28:46 PM] Natalya says: Ah! Yes!!
[4:28:48 PM] Daniel says: what CP said :P
[4:28:56 PM] Daniel says: and Natalya..
[4:29:06 PM] Natalya says: Yes I know I posted it after he posted his comment :)
[4:29:11 PM] Natalya says: That is a great idea
[4:29:14 PM] Daniel says: and that could be linked in the welcome template?
[4:29:18 PM] Eric says: Then all of the proposals we archive but think are good ideas can go to one central place.
[4:29:20 PM] Daniel says: as ideas for newbies to look into
[4:29:31 PM] Natalya says: We could put it at the top of the projects page
[4:29:39 PM] Eric says: Daniel and Natalya: Both of those sound good.
[4:29:47 PM] Natalya says: I'll be glad to take care of making that
[4:30:00 PM] Celestianpower says: Natlay: Thanks!
[4:30:05 PM] Celestianpower says: *Natalya
[4:30:06 PM] Natalya says: Next! Wikipedia Awards
[4:30:10 PM] * Daniel would like to raise a dissenting voice.
[4:30:30 PM] Natalya says: Please do :)
[4:30:38 PM] Daniel says: is going through and deciding on all the proposals a meeting thing? couldn't we all just do that on here whenever?
[4:30:50 PM] Daniel says: i mean, people are going to read this :)
[4:31:05 PM] freakofnurture says: just summarize
[4:31:09 PM] Natalya says: True, but we haven't really said anything slanderous about them, have we? [4:31:09 PM] Daniel says: feel free to delete these off-topic comments afterwards.
[4:31:14 PM] Daniel says: no..
[4:31:14 PM] FireFox says: I'd like to actually know how many people read these logs
[4:31:21 PM] Eric says: Well, I've been waiting for a good time to say this:
[4:31:25 PM] Eric says: I'd like to take this time to point out to all members that all ideas are welcome on the proposals page, and just because we archive something for the time being doesn't mean it was a horrible idea, or that your effort isn't appreciated.
[4:31:28 PM] Daniel says: but I'm thinking in terms of time and getting onto the more important thingys
[4:31:40 PM] Daniel says: Eric: well said.
[4:31:40 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:31:50 PM] * Celestianpower agrees fully with Eric
[4:31:50 PM] * FireFox puts Erics statement in flashing lights and
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[4:31:53 PM] Natalya says: Daniel: Yes, we just wanted to take care of it now because there was questioning of a backlog
[4:31:59 PM] Natalya says: Eric, I'll bold your statement
[4:32:01 PM] Eric says: Daniel: Future meetings should be shorter with a shorter backlog.
[4:32:13 PM] Daniel says: Natalya: yes, we've dealt with quite a few :)
[4:32:15 PM] Natalya says: We're almost, almost done!
[4:32:16 PM] Daniel says: which is great
[4:32:20 PM] Daniel says: ok ok
[4:32:24 PM] * Daniel stops dissenting :P
[4:32:30 PM] Eric says: Natalya: You could also put it at the top of the log as a message from the entire council.
[4:32:36 PM] Natalya says: Eric: Yes
[4:32:36 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:32:39 PM] Natalya says: Lovely idea
[4:32:42 PM] Celestianpower says: Can we move on
[4:32:42 PM] Natalya says: Wikipedia Awards!
[4:32:48 PM] Celestianpower says: My brother is pounding me
[4:32:56 PM] * Natalya glares at CPs brother
[4:32:58 PM] FireFox says: Pound him back? :D
[4:32:58 PM] freakofnurture says: this might have potential
[4:33:12 PM] Natalya says: Lots of support for it too
[4:33:23 PM] Natalya says: But a bit vague as of now
[4:33:34 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:33:37 PM] * Daniel loves it
[4:33:42 PM] Celestianpower says: "In development" for it?
[4:33:44 PM] Natalya says: In development?
[4:33:48 PM] Eric says: I'd like to note that despite good intentions, things that single out individuals could be potentially bad things.
[4:33:53 PM] freakofnurture says: have different categories, maybe a "user of the month" award for each
[4:33:56 PM] Daniel says: true
[4:34:14 PM] Natalya says: They could just be made into uber-barnstars, though, which shouldn't cause too much rucus
[4:34:17 PM] Daniel says: one thing though: "It sounds like a good idea to me, that way we can appreciate the hardworking editors who don't get me appreciation"
[4:34:29 PM] Daniel says: the BB is already covering that aspect ^
[4:34:53 PM] Eric says: True.
[4:34:54 PM] freakofnurture says: get members to focus more on improving the encyclopedia
[4:35:00 PM] Daniel says: Natalya: i think a project awarding things might not be so great
[4:35:02 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:35:12 PM] Natalya says: Freak: Was that a separate statement, or part of the idea?
[4:35:20 PM] freakofnurture says: part of the idea
[4:35:28 PM] freakofnurture says: perhaps file it next to "fix the toolserver"
[4:35:31 PM] Daniel says: Phaedriel's personal award is lovely, but if a project does it, it may look a little like the academy awards :P
[4:35:43 PM] Natalya says: Good analogy
[4:35:51 PM] Celestianpower says: Hmm, Daniel has a point
[4:35:52 PM] Natalya says: If we take Freaks' idea
[4:36:05 PM] Natalya says: and perhaps make it more editor based, though, that might alleviate some of the concern
[4:36:10 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:36:11 PM] Daniel says: or the emmy's (curse them) :P
[4:36:13 PM] Daniel says: yes
[4:36:19 PM] Natalya says: So less like "You're a nice person" and more like "You've written seventeen featured articles, wow"
[4:36:24 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:36:29 PM] Daniel says: yes
[4:36:36 PM] Natalya says: We could put it in development, and add something along those lines as a comment
[4:36:37 PM] Daniel says: we're here to create an encyclopedia :P
[4:36:42 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:36:44 PM] Daniel says: if they are nice we can also say that too.
[4:36:44 PM] freakofnurture says: or even just adminning
[4:36:45 PM] Celestianpower says: I'll do that
[4:36:47 PM] Natalya says: Always :)
[4:36:48 PM] Natalya says: Good
[4:36:52 PM] * FireFox agrees
[4:36:52 PM] Celestianpower says: Next
[4:36:56 PM] Natalya says: Next, Smile campaign
[4:36:56 PM] Celestianpower says: I ahve 10 minutes
[4:36:58 PM] Celestianpower says: *have
[4:37:04 PM] Celestianpower says: Concretely, 10 minutes
[4:37:04 PM] Natalya says: No discussion needed, I don't think
[4:37:15 PM] Eric says: That was a long saga.
[4:37:17 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: Yes, already accepted, just needs formalising
[4:37:18 PM] Natalya says: We archive the idea, but I'd like to add the image to Esperanza images
[4:37:26 PM] Natalya says: Really? Oops, then
[4:37:36 PM] Eric says: Accepted as a program?
[4:37:36 PM] Natalya says: I thought it had been frowned upon so much that we didn't want to make it official
[4:37:39 PM] Celestianpower says: That was my impression
[4:37:41 PM] Celestianpower says: Oh
[4:37:42 PM] * Daniel didn't really like how the smile thing backlashed.
[4:37:43 PM] * Eric agrees with Natalya
[4:37:44 PM] Natalya says: But if we add it to the image section, it's still there for use
[4:37:48 PM] Celestianpower says: I guess
[4:38:00 PM] Natalya says: People still use them around, just not in massive force
[4:38:01 PM] Eric says: I'd say add it to the images page and the "Good ideas" page.
[4:38:08 PM] freakofnurture says: pun intended?
[4:38:08 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:38:19 PM] Natalya says: Is that okay, CP (sorry if we rained on your parade!)
[4:38:28 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: No problem
[4:38:33 PM] Natalya says: Okay
[4:38:34 PM] Celestianpower says: It did backlash horribly
[4:38:47 PM] Natalya says: Be back in two seconds, but dicuss the hall of fame while I run
[4:38:59 PM] freakofnurture says: i've gotten a few of those "smile" templates from people had barely heard of
[4:39:10 PM] Daniel says: the whole impersonal thing again.
[4:39:12 PM] Celestianpower says: Hall of fame, right
[4:39:14 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:39:17 PM] Celestianpower says: I don't like that one
[4:39:21 PM] Daniel says: i don't either
[4:39:23 PM] Daniel says: not at all
[4:39:30 PM] Eric says: Similar to the "recognizing individuals" argument from earlier.
[4:39:30 PM] Daniel says: could turn into a bragging rights thing
[4:39:31 PM] freakofnurture says: caused a bit of paranoia
[4:39:37 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:39:52 PM] Eric says: Archived?
[4:39:55 PM] Celestianpower says: Good try, but not for us
[4:39:56 PM] freakofnurture says: err, we must have sped up at some point
[4:40:06 PM] Natalya says: Back, sorry again
[4:40:32 PM] Natalya says: It seems like a more problematic version of the awards
[4:40:36 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:40:38 PM] Natalya says: Freak: did we miss something you wanted to mention?
[4:41:18 PM] Natalya says: ... archive this one, then?
[4:41:22 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:41:22 PM] freakofnurture says: i figure the smile thing is dead anyway, so i need not comment
[4:41:33 PM] Eric says: Natalya: Yes.
[4:41:33 PM] Celestianpower says: Freak: Ok :)
[4:41:34 PM] Natalya says: And lastly (there is an end!), the Periódico Program
[4:41:37 PM] Natalya says: Freak: Gotcha
[4:41:42 PM] Celestianpower says: ODesn't have any support
[4:41:46 PM] Daniel says: i don't like that one really either
[4:41:50 PM] Natalya says: I don't really understand it
[4:41:51 PM] Celestianpower says: Too complex?
[4:42:02 PM] Daniel says: it holds us to something
[4:42:03 PM] Natalya says: It seems like it
[4:42:18 PM] Daniel says: wikipedia, besides being an encyclopedia, is also voluntary
[4:42:23 PM] Daniel says: it may cause stress
[4:42:25 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:42:27 PM] Natalya says: Yes
[4:42:28 PM] Eric says: Exactly.
[4:42:33 PM] Celestianpower says: Not an Esperanzian thing, I don't think
[4:42:40 PM] Daniel says: like bringing nothing in front of the class at "show and tell"
[4:42:49 PM] Natalya says: Shall we archive then? Or leave it for more discussion?
[4:43:07 PM] * Daniel is in favour if archiving
[4:43:10 PM] Daniel says: *of
[4:43:10 PM] Eric says: Archive for now.
[4:43:16 PM] FireFox says: archive I think
[4:43:22 PM] Natalya says: Archive it is (since people can always bring them back)
[4:43:32 PM] Natalya says: End of the list :)
[4:43:45 PM] Daniel says: w00t!
[4:43:48 PM] Eric says: Brief mention:
[4:43:50 PM] Natalya says: CP: Thanks for archiving the archive ones. Are you still good to create the "In Development" section, wehenver you get a chance?
[4:43:55 PM] Eric says: Newsletter discussion was already archived.
[4:44:00 PM] * Daniel has a question about admin coaching
[4:44:12 PM] Eric says: But I don't think it would hurt to create an opt-out list for the newsletter.
[4:44:18 PM] * Natalya would like to point out that it's not the end of the meeting, sorry!)
[4:44:35 PM] * Daniel was aware
[4:44:38 PM] Natalya says: Eric: Is that hard to do? I know we used to have one
[4:44:48 PM] freakofnurture says: admin coaching, hmm...
[4:44:50 PM] Natalya says: Daniel: don't let your question get lost in the fray, either
[4:44:52 PM] * Celestianpower was always againsthaving an opt-out
[4:45:04 PM] Eric says: CP: Why is that?
[4:45:21 PM] Eric says: There are some people who want to be members, but don't sign up because they don't want to be "spammed"
[4:45:23 PM] Natalya says: The newsletter did get frowned upon a bit, though; while I think it's really important to have, having an opt-out list might alleviate some of the concerts about it
[4:45:32 PM] Celestianpower says: Because I think people need to be reminded that a) They are still Esperanzians; b) What's going on
[4:46:05 PM] Celestianpower says: People optout and we never see them again
[4:46:05 PM] * Daniel watches his question get lost in the fray and remembers to raise it again later.
[4:46:10 PM] freakofnurture says: perhaps just spam a link to a page, rather than a copy of the page
[4:46:13 PM] Celestianpower says: Gives them new energy and vigour in the project
[4:46:28 PM] Celestianpower says: Freak: Possibly a good idea
[4:46:42 PM] Eric says: freak: I think quite a few people liked getting the whole thing.
[4:46:45 PM] Daniel says: sounds a wee bit better
[4:47:00 PM] Daniel says: but one thing, passers by read it
[4:47:05 PM] Daniel says: which is sometimes very good
[4:47:08 PM] Celestianpower says: Daniel: Yes, that too
[4:47:09 PM] Natalya says: Maybe have an option to either get it on your talk page, or get a link?
[4:47:10 PM] Celestianpower says: Publicity
[4:47:18 PM] Natalya says: I recall some Wikipedia group does that (I think)
[4:47:19 PM] freakofnurture says: and then they might be encouraged to, you know, comment on the talk page of the newsletter page
[4:47:23 PM] freakofnurture says: for that date
[4:47:24 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[4:47:27 PM] Daniel says: yeah
[4:47:31 PM] Eric says: Natalya: That could be a nice compromise.
[4:47:37 PM] Celestianpower says: How about we have the opt-out list as an opt-for-link list?
[4:47:46 PM] Natalya says: Sounds good to me
[4:47:47 PM] Eric says: Sounds good.
[4:47:56 PM] Celestianpower says: :)
[4:48:05 PM] freakofnurture says: i mean the signpost spam feed is big too, but it doesn't contain the full text, just links to it
[4:48:18 PM] Natalya says: We can spam this newlsetter to everyone, and add an adendum about the link list at the bottom, so they can opt-for-link for the next one
[4:48:20 PM] Daniel says: howabout an abridged version?
[4:48:27 PM] Natalya says: It's not that long already... :)
[4:48:28 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: Yes
[4:48:40 PM] FireFox says: yes, good idea people
[4:48:42 PM] Natalya says: Daniel: What was your question!?
[4:48:51 PM] freakofnurture says: Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome.
[4:49:04 PM] Daniel says: can i go to the bathroom miss?
[4:49:12 PM] Daniel says: no, actually, here it is...standby...
[4:49:13 PM] * Natalya laughs
[4:49:34 PM] Celestianpower says: Ok
[4:49:37 PM] Daniel says: can we up the requirements for people to list themselves as coaching candidates?
[4:49:40 PM] Celestianpower says: I have to go now
[4:49:49 PM] Natalya says: Sorry, CP!
[4:49:50 PM] Celestianpower says: I'll be back in half an hour if anyone is still here
[4:49:52 PM] freakofnurture says: i can think of a few people i'd like to see be admins, but which don't stand a chance in hell
[4:49:55 PM] Daniel says: so as to remove the less serious people who would never have a hope
[4:50:08 PM] * Natalya runs to look at what the requirments are now
[4:50:18 PM] Daniel says: there are none last i looked
[4:50:31 PM] Natalya says: CP: Would you like me to take care of the in development section, or are you okay with it (if you answered this before, sorry)
[4:51:02 PM] Daniel says: the way it is now, people are all equal in the chances of getting a coach
[4:51:05 PM] FireFox says: brb sorry
[4:51:06 PM] Daniel says: the list is a list
[4:51:13 PM] * Eric is in and out
[4:51:22 PM] Natalya says: Daniel: Were you thinking a number of edits/time on Wikipedia thing?
[4:51:29 PM] Daniel says: perhaps the "better" admin hopefuls who actually have a hope should be moved up
[4:51:30 PM] Daniel says: yes
[4:51:38 PM] Daniel says: sometimes we have really new people signing up
[4:51:45 PM] freakofnurture says: the better hopefuls won't need coaching
[4:51:47 PM] Daniel says: perhaps admin coaching isn't their thing
[4:51:55 PM] Daniel says: Freak:true
[4:52:05 PM] * Eric wishes Titoxd were here to talk about admin coaching
[4:52:05 PM] Natalya says: Personally, I'd like to see that discussed on the admin coaching talk page (and linked to from the ESP talk page), since it's a bigger decision that might offend some people
[4:52:05 PM] freakofnurture says: really, i don't like this
[4:52:15 PM] Daniel says: ok
[4:52:18 PM] * Natalya wishes Titoxd were here at all
[4:52:19 PM] * Eric agrees that larger discussion is a good idea
[4:52:52 PM] freakofnurture says: i mean unless we want to call it for what it is
[4:52:59 PM] FireFox says: back
[4:53:03 PM] freakofnurture says: maybe i shouldn't rant about it right now
[4:53:05 PM] Natalya says: Welcome again
[4:53:07 PM] Daniel says: lol
[4:53:21 PM] Natalya says: Hmmm
[4:53:27 PM] * Daniel means some sort of requirement, like 500 edits or something, but tis not important.
[4:53:46 PM] Natalya says: Daniel: Tis important! So important that more people should decide on it. :)
[4:53:51 PM] Natalya says: Are you okay bringing it up on the talk page there?
[4:54:04 PM] freakofnurture says: userfy
[4:54:19 PM] Daniel says: Natalya: sure, I'll do that. :)
[4:54:34 PM] Natalya says: Freak: You're not a fan?
[4:54:35 PM] freakofnurture says: not literally, in the sense of moving it all to somebody's userpage
[4:55:37 PM] Natalya says: It's probably a good thing to bring up during the discussion, too [4:55:45 PM] Natalya says: Or a separate discussion, for that matter
[4:55:54 PM] Natalya says: Next topic, if we're all okay with that
[4:56:02 PM] * Daniel is fine
[4:56:08 PM] Natalya says: Responsibilities of the Council
[4:56:19 PM] Natalya says: One of which we've just taken care of, dealing with proposed programs
[4:56:36 PM] Natalya says: Another, which is less definite, but was brought up and I believe agreed upon during the revamping of Esperanza
[4:57:01 PM] Natalya says: Is that we're supposed to alert Esperanza members who are acting non-Esperanzian that perhaps they should reconsider their attitude
[4:57:23 PM] Natalya says: As far as I'm aware, we haven't really had to deal with this, but I just wanted to mention it so everyone was aware of it
[4:57:42 PM] Natalya says: (This is actually mentioned in the charter too)
[4:57:43 PM] Daniel says: it isn't often neccessary
[4:57:46 PM] Natalya says: Exactly
[4:57:56 PM] Daniel says: really it's a personal thing
[4:57:56 PM] Natalya says: But now we know that if it is, we're the ones to do it :)
[4:57:57 PM] freakofnurture says: disavowal should be sufficient
[4:58:02 PM] Daniel says: between editors :)
[4:58:11 PM] Natalya says: Yep
[4:58:22 PM] Natalya says: I guess that wasn't really a topic, more like an announcement or something
[4:58:22 PM] Eric says: As long as we don't turn into an enforcement council.
[4:58:48 PM] Natalya says: It's phrased well in the charter, I think: "Additionally, it is the Council's role to remind any member of Esperanza's values, should they need reminding."
[4:58:56 PM] Daniel says: it's just that Natalya for example, as the leader of esperanza, would of course be in a better position to do a subtle and polite telling off than anyone else
[4:59:12 PM] Daniel says: which goes to my recurring point of the leadership setting an example.
[4:59:18 PM] Natalya says: Which I understand, and accept
[4:59:20 PM] Daniel says: no pot calling the kettle black scenarios.
[4:59:31 PM] Natalya says: I'll try to keep myself in check ;)
[4:59:32 PM] Eric says: Daniel: Agreed.
[4:59:38 PM] freakofnurture says: i see what you mean, heh
[5:00:04 PM] Natalya says: Next topic, then
[5:00:20 PM] Natalya says: Take a look at the election reform link at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Esperanza/Advisory_Committee_Meeting_Augus t_2006
[5:00:53 PM] Natalya says: Thoughts?
[5:01:14 PM] Daniel says: nice pageh
[5:01:23 PM] * Daniel has nothing else to add :P
[5:01:26 PM] freakofnurture says: if 2 people leave at once, we've got problems
[5:01:59 PM] freakofnurture says: which would best be dealt with before taking other action
[5:02:14 PM] Natalya says: Do we need to add this to the charter? Or is it just accepted?
[5:02:22 PM] Natalya says: (Is it even agreed upon?)
[5:02:51 PM] Eric says: Perhaps beyond the runner-up scenario, it should be up to the council to assign a temporary counciller until the term is up.
[5:03:20 PM] Eric says: And the council can use the previous election as a guideline but not a strict rule.
[5:03:49 PM] Natalya says: Does that leave us too much discretion?
[5:04:04 PM] * Daniel likes being left with discretion.
[5:04:06 PM] Daniel says: :P
[5:04:26 PM] Natalya says: That's fine
[5:04:49 PM] Natalya says: Is it worth amending the charter for? I feel like people accept the fact that the council would choose a counciler if someone resigned
[5:04:52 PM] Natalya says: But that might just be me
[5:05:15 PM] Eric says: Might be worth putting in writing.
[5:05:15 PM] Daniel says: the fewer elections the better is what the rodent running around in my head says.
[5:05:24 PM] * Eric agrees with Daniel
[5:05:27 PM] Daniel says: i don't usually trust him, but he may be right on this one.
[5:05:35 PM] * Natalya laughs
[5:05:46 PM] Natalya says: Amending it into the charter would involve another straw poll
[5:06:00 PM] Eric says: Is that what the current amending of the charter says?
[5:06:04 PM] Natalya says: Yep
[5:06:11 PM] * Daniel doesn't like it when we have too many of those, but it may be a neccessary evil
[5:06:20 PM] Natalya says: B. Amending the Charter and Polling
The Esperanza community as a whole shall decide what is needed for large events and tasks. Changes to the charter will require a straw poll on the Esperanza talk page. In addition, Esperanza will hold a poll to decide issues deemed to be either of great importance or possible causes of dissent amongst members. The entire membership of Esperanza will be able to vote in such polls.
[5:06:41 PM] freakofnurture says: who wrote that
[5:06:45 PM] * Natalya doesn't like having them, but it is in the charter, and it would take a poll to amend that section of the charter anyway...
[5:07:06 PM] Daniel says: amending to amend to poll to hold a poll to amend
[5:07:15 PM] FireFox says: lol
[5:07:17 PM] Eric says: Something like that.
[5:07:17 PM] Natalya says: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Esperanza/Charter&diff=23742723 &oldid=23652877
[5:07:21 PM] * Daniel listens to the little rat explode in his head.
[5:07:25 PM] Daniel says: sounds all complicated.
[5:07:32 PM] Natalya says: Sorry about that rat, Daniel!
[5:07:47 PM] Natalya says: Well, here's how it actually won't be too bad:
[5:07:52 PM] * FireFox listens to the clogs slowly grind to a halt in his head
[5:08:12 PM] Natalya says: Given that the poll on changing the name was rather low key, and since we have the governance page anyway, we hold the poll on the governance page, and link to it from the ESP talk page as would be expected
[5:08:21 PM] Daniel says: it's ok Natalya, I can slide another one in there another day.
[5:08:24 PM] Daniel says: sounds nice :)
[5:08:37 PM] Daniel says: the less the outside sees of it the better it is of course.
[5:08:37 PM] Eric says: I have an idea for an amendment.
[5:08:45 PM] * Natalya agrees with Daniel
[5:08:58 PM] Natalya says: Eric: Yep?
[5:09:06 PM] Daniel says: brb pizza.
[5:09:20 PM] Natalya says: Yum
[5:09:28 PM] FireFox says: ahh pizza.
[5:09:31 PM] * FireFox is jealous
[5:09:45 PM] Eric says: "The council can amend the charter, provided that they alert the rest of Esperanza. Should there be dissent in that amendment from 3 or more Esperanza members, the amendment will require a straw poll of the membership."
[5:10:25 PM] Natalya says: Nice. I like it
[5:10:40 PM] Natalya says: If we agree upon it, we'll have to add it to the straw poll, of course :)
[5:11:10 PM] Eric says: Of course, but it'll be the last non-controversial straw poll we'll have to do, assuming it passes.
[5:11:22 PM] Natalya says: So we just have the controversial ones to look forward to ;)
[5:11:47 PM] Natalya says: FireFox/Freak/Daniel when he gets back from pizza: what do you think?
[5:12:33 PM] * Daniel says "yes!" then reads up.
[5:13:03 PM] FireFox says: yes :)
[5:13:16 PM] * Daniel 's yes still stands, even after reading.
[5:13:18 PM] Natalya says: (I just want to make sure there's agreement, since it's a bigger issue)
[5:13:23 PM] Daniel says: sounds good.
[5:13:39 PM] Eric says: We have to propose it to the general membership anyway.
[5:13:45 PM] Natalya says: Providing Freak agrees (in case he's looked away), here is what it looks like we'll be proposing to amend:
[5:14:21 PM] Natalya says: "In the case that there is any dispute from a vacancy in the Council, or a rule in dispute, the Admin. General shall have the sole duty to determine the resolution. In the Case the admin. gen cannot complete that duty, then the Council will do that." will be added after the bit about if a counciler resigns
and
"The council can amend the charter, provided that they alert the rest of Esperanza. Should there be dissent in that amendment from 3 or more Esperanza members, the amendment will require a straw poll of the membership." will replace the current Amending the Charter section
[5:14:27 PM] * Daniel stikes the two hour gong solemnly
[5:14:56 PM] * Natalya does apologize for the meeting going on so long, but is glad that we're getting lots of things done
[5:14:57 PM] FireFox says: lol
[5:15:00 PM] freakofnurture says: ok
[5:15:02 PM] Daniel says: :)
[5:15:07 PM] freakofnurture says: i'm falling asleep in my chair
[5:15:10 PM] FireFox says: I have to go in 30 minutes
[5:15:18 PM] Natalya says: Then we'll be sure to finish before then
[5:15:22 PM] * Daniel needs to go before too long on account of the time.
[5:15:24 PM] Natalya says: Not too much left
[5:15:37 PM] Daniel says: the newletter contents?
[5:15:38 PM] Natalya says: Next is the Esperanza/Kindness Campaign cooperation
[5:15:46 PM] Daniel says: ah that
[5:15:52 PM] Natalya says: (Newsletter is after this)
[5:15:59 PM] Daniel says: :)
[5:16:20 PM] Daniel says: ...
[5:16:24 PM] * Eric wants to talk about one more think briefly before the newsletter
[5:16:25 PM] Natalya says: What do people think of the idea? Does it seem feasable in any sense?
[5:16:35 PM] * Natalya forgot that there is open topics time :)
[5:16:53 PM] * Daniel thinks it isn't exactly feasible or worthwhile
[5:17:02 PM] Natalya says: To me, it seems like a good idea in principal, but would really require more fleshing out rather than "This sounds cool, but I don't know how" comments
[5:17:06 PM] Daniel says: i love the KC, and i love EA, but the two are quite differnt
[5:17:17 PM] Daniel says: KC is more of a philosophy
[5:17:39 PM] * Eric thinks Esperanzans should generally be made aware of the KC
[5:17:45 PM] Daniel says: but i think, yes, if thought out very thoroughly and organized, it could be really "kewl"
[5:17:49 PM] * Daniel agrees with Eric
[5:17:51 PM] FireFox says: yes, they are different. the two will never really co-operate in my opinion
[5:17:51 PM] Natalya says: We could add it to the awareness page!! :)
[5:18:02 PM] Daniel says: yes!
[5:18:11 PM] FireFox says: there was great disagreement with merging last time it was discussed somewher
[5:18:15 PM] FireFox says: somewhere*
[5:18:24 PM] Eric says: Yeah, definitely not merging.
[5:18:32 PM] Daniel says: no merger no no
[5:18:33 PM] Natalya says: Firefox: I think there was also some misunderstanding, because the intent was not to merge, but to work together
[5:18:36 PM] Natalya says: Definitly not
[5:18:42 PM] Daniel says: but how?
[5:18:42 PM] Daniel says: which sounds better...
[5:18:57 PM] Natalya says: Not saying it was better, just what it was :)
[5:19:02 PM] Eric says: I think if the right proposal were to come along, we could definitely do KC and EA co-op programs.
[5:19:31 PM] Natalya says: I'd like to leave it on the proposals page, if that's okay; it could have possibility, someone just needs to "come along" with a good way for it to work, as Eric says
[5:19:44 PM] Daniel says: indeed
[5:19:55 PM] Eric says: Sounds good, more general discussion on logistics, etc.
[5:20:15 PM] Natalya says: We'll leave that proposed then
[5:20:16 PM] Daniel says: howabout...
[5:20:22 PM] Daniel says: a subpage kinda thing
[5:20:27 PM] Daniel says: a middle ground
[5:20:36 PM] Daniel says: where the two can work together
[5:20:39 PM] Natalya says: For discussion solely on the topic?
[5:20:44 PM] Daniel says: no
[5:20:51 PM] Daniel says: if we decide to do this
[5:20:54 PM] Natalya says: Oh!
[5:21:01 PM] Daniel says: part of the logisticicals
[5:21:02 PM] Natalya says: You should bring that up in the discussion :)
[5:21:03 PM] Eric says: Daniel: I think you should propose that at the discussion.
[5:21:06 PM] Daniel says: logistics
[5:21:07 PM] Natalya says: Ahhh yay
[5:21:20 PM] * Natalya laughs at the original spelling of logitics
[5:21:29 PM] Daniel says: lol
[5:21:31 PM] * Natalya then laughs at herself for not spelling it right
[5:21:45 PM] Natalya says: (It could be a good idea, though)
[5:21:49 PM] * Daniel is starting to type like a drukn man, which he isn't.
[5:21:55 PM] Natalya says: We're almost to the end!
[5:21:56 PM] * Daniel thinks it may just be
[5:22:05 PM] Natalya says: Eric, you said you wanted to bring something up?
[5:22:11 PM] Eric says: Yes, front page redesign.
[5:22:12 PM] * Natalya opens the floor to discussion
[5:22:13 PM] * Daniel realizes his view is influenced by the fact that it was his idea
[5:22:15 PM] Daniel says: :P
[5:22:24 PM] Natalya says: Eric: yes!
[5:22:31 PM] Celestianpower says: Hi all
[5:22:36 PM] Celestianpower says: I'm back
[5:22:41 PM] Natalya says: Hi CP!! :D
[5:22:42 PM] Daniel says: it's over CP
[5:22:43 PM] Eric says: There seemed to be some general support for this, so I think we need to have a place where people can mess around with it and kick around some ideas.
[5:22:43 PM] Celestianpower says: What happened in my absence?
[5:22:43 PM] Daniel says: too late
[5:22:46 PM] Daniel says: but wb all the same
[5:23:24 PM] Celestianpower says: Natalya: Have you summed up somewhere?
[5:23:39 PM] Daniel says: hook...line...and sinker :P
[5:23:40 PM] * Natalya is doing that right now, that you for interupting ;)
[5:23:50 PM] Celestianpower says: Sorry
[5:23:52 PM] * Daniel likes the idea of a redesign of sorts.
[5:24:00 PM] * Celestianpower thought it was already over :)
[5:24:09 PM] * Daniel points up
[5:24:20 PM] Natalya says: CP: We reminded the council that we are technically resonsible to remind members acting non-
Esperanzialy that they are Esperanza members (mostly my job), decided on two propoesd ammendments to the charter that will be brought up for straw poll on the governance page, decided to leave the Esperanza/KC as a proposal because while it has potential it needs something definite
[5:24:23 PM] Eric says: Daniel: Yes, perhaps not a complete overhaul, but a new re- arrangement and clearer discussion of what we are.
[5:24:30 PM] Daniel says: yes
[5:24:34 PM] Natalya says: Yes
[5:24:35 PM] Daniel says: tis grown a wee bit cluttered
[5:24:50 PM] Natalya says: An Esperanza-wide discussion on this would surely have some good ideas, I would imagine
[5:24:57 PM] Eric says: Definitely.
[5:25:10 PM] Natalya says: On the Esp talk page, or elsewhere?
[5:25:27 PM] Eric says: Hmmm.
[5:25:32 PM] Daniel says: since i am about as likely to do that without ruining the html as Natalya growing a beard i'd like to see who would do it?
[5:25:45 PM] Natalya says: (Eric, do you want to spearhead this, by the way?)
[5:25:50 PM] * Natalya laughs way too much
[5:26:13 PM] Eric says: I could spearhead it, but if there are any graphical changes we want to make, I'll have to recruit others to do so.
[5:26:17 PM] Natalya says: If we had a separate page for the redesign (linked to from the talk page), it might let people be more creative
[5:26:26 PM] Daniel says: like the main page
[5:26:27 PM] * Eric agrees
[5:26:31 PM] Daniel says: candidates kind of thing
[5:26:35 PM] Natalya says: Eric: You certainly wouldn't have to create anything, but if you wanted to bring up the idea and all [5:26:36 PM] Daniel says: but without the voting
[5:26:48 PM] Natalya says: And brainstorming on rephrasing, etc.
[5:26:56 PM] Eric says: Sounds good. I'd be happy to.
[5:26:59 PM] Natalya says: And then before any decisions are made, make sure all of Esperanza is aware
[5:27:04 PM] Natalya says: Thanks :)
[5:27:07 PM] Celestianpower says: What charter ammendments are these?
[5:27:22 PM] Natalya says: "In the case that there is any dispute from a vacancy in the Council, or a rule in dispute, the Admin. General shall have the sole duty to determine the resolution. In the Case the admin. gen cannot complete that duty, then the Council will do that." will be added after the bit about if a counciler resigns
and
"The council can amend the charter, provided that they alert the rest of Esperanza. Should there be dissent in that amendment from 3 or more Esperanza members, the amendment will require a straw poll of the membership." will replace the current Amending the Charter section
[5:27:31 PM] * Natalya likes to copy and paste
[5:27:37 PM] * Daniel noticed.
[5:27:46 PM] Natalya says: :P
[5:28:07 PM] * Eric thinks the first one could have more simple wording, but doesn't know what it is
[5:28:09 PM] Celestianpower says: I see
[5:28:15 PM] Celestianpower says: Sounds fair
[5:28:18 PM] * Daniel opens the *newsletter* which just arrived in his inbox.
[5:28:22 PM] Daniel says: :P
[5:28:33 PM] Natalya says: Daniel: Eh?
[5:28:46 PM] Natalya says: CP: Does that look okay? Sorry you were gone for it
[5:28:52 PM] * Daniel was making a not-so-sutble hint :P
[5:28:58 PM] Daniel says: sublte actually.
[5:29:06 PM] Daniel says: subtle
[5:29:07 PM] Natalya says: Perhaps subtle?
[5:29:13 PM] Daniel says: yeah that
[5:29:14 PM] Natalya says: Hmm.. here's a rephrasing idea
[5:29:34 PM] * Daniel is eager to hear it
[5:29:36 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes, sounds good
[5:29:50 PM] Natalya says: Actually, does it need to be solely up to the Admin Gen? A council wide decision seems less tyrranical
[5:30:00 PM] * Daniel likes tyrrany
[5:30:04 PM] Eric says: lol
[5:30:12 PM] * Eric thinks we shouldn't put so much pressure on the admin gen
[5:30:19 PM] Daniel says: oops, hang on...i'd be on the receiving end
[5:30:24 PM] Daniel says: yes i agree with Eric
[5:30:26 PM] * Natalya laughs
[5:30:28 PM] Daniel says: give us a job :)
[5:30:31 PM] Natalya says: It just seems nicer that way
[5:30:50 PM] Natalya says: "In the case that there is any dispute from a vacancy in the Council, the Admin. General and the Council will resolve the dispute."
[5:31:01 PM] Natalya says: Or perhaps *Council members
[5:31:15 PM] FireFox says: (Sorry I'm not saying much, I am still here though)
[5:31:18 PM] Daniel says: sounds fair
[5:31:20 PM] Natalya says: "In the case that there is any dispute from a vacancy in the Council, the Admin. General and the Council members will resolve the dispute."
[5:31:23 PM] Natalya says: No worries, Firefox
[5:31:24 PM] Daniel says: hi FireFox :)
[5:31:42 PM] Natalya says: Does that convey the appropriate message still?
[5:32:03 PM] Daniel says: to me it does.
[5:32:28 PM] Celestianpower says: Yes
[5:32:55 PM] Daniel says: more matter, less art
[5:33:12 PM] Natalya says: Eloquence can be used elsewhere :)
[5:33:22 PM] * Daniel needs to search for kalim's eye, will brb
[5:33:24 PM] Daniel says: yes indeed.
[5:33:32 PM] Natalya says: Is there any other open discussion, or should we decide what's going to be in the newsletter?
[5:33:39 PM] Natalya says: Kalim's eye.... Diablo II?
[5:33:51 PM] Daniel says: Diablo II of course.
[5:33:59 PM] * Natalya loves Diablo II
[5:34:00 PM] * Daniel didn't think anyone would recognize the reference
[5:34:04 PM] Natalya says: But back on topic first!
[5:34:19 PM] * Eric has no further open topics, unless someone wants to propose an EA Diablo II meeting
[5:34:25 PM] Natalya says: I take it from the silence that there is no more open discussion
[5:34:49 PM] Natalya says: Newsletter, then
[5:34:59 PM] * FireFox breaks silence
[5:35:22 PM] * Eric wonders how many unbroken silences we have left
[5:35:26 PM] Natalya says: Daniel had mentioned that the To Do list needs featuring
[5:35:37 PM] Eric says: Sounds good.
[5:35:54 PM] * Daniel feels that project can only succeed if it has loads of people in it
[5:35:56 PM] Natalya says: Instead of featuring another program, should we then feature the "In development" section of the proposals page?
[5:36:03 PM] Natalya says: In an effort to get more definite ideas from all of Esperanza
[5:36:14 PM] Daniel says: yes
[5:36:15 PM] * Eric looks for a previous newsletter to get ideas
[5:36:21 PM] Natalya says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Esperanza/Newsletter
[5:36:58 PM] Eric says: Sounds good, To Do List and In Development
[5:37:19 PM] Natalya says: And I'll summarize up the meeting and such, that should be no problem
[5:37:43 PM] Natalya says: Any everyone signs it?
[5:37:45 PM] * Eric wouldn't mind front page redesign mentioned on the newsletter
[5:37:53 PM] Natalya says: Oh! Good idea!
[5:37:55 PM] Eric says: Perhaps in that small space below the meeting.
[5:38:11 PM] Daniel says: howabout a little bar with "what's new" or something
[5:38:14 PM] Daniel says: news
[5:38:58 PM] Natalya says: Okay: Program feature (To Do list), What's New (In Development, Front Page Redesign), AC Meeting summary, and Signed
[5:39:09 PM] Daniel says: sounds great :)
[5:39:14 PM] Celestianpower says: Yep
[5:39:22 PM] Celestianpower says: See the proposals page by the way
[5:39:47 PM] Daniel says: well done CP!
[5:39:50 PM] Natalya says: Eric: As soon as you get a page for the front page redesign, drop me an email/note on my talk page so I can add a link before Misza spams it out
[5:39:52 PM] Celestianpower says: :)
[5:40:07 PM] Celestianpower says: Eric is redegigning WP:ESP?
[5:40:13 PM] Celestianpower says: *redesigning
[5:40:19 PM] Natalya says: Lovely, CP!
[5:40:32 PM] * Daniel is keeping his distance so as to avoid messing anything up :P
[5:40:36 PM] Natalya says: Starting up a separate page for people to brainstorm resdesiging things
[5:40:44 PM] Celestianpower says: ok
[5:40:53 PM] FireFox says: I'm going to have to go now, sorry! I'll read up on the rest of this tomorrow
[5:40:59 PM] Eric says: Natalya: Make it Wikipedia:Esperanza/Front page redesign
[5:41:02 PM] Natalya says: Farewell, Firefox!
[5:41:07 PM] Natalya says: Okay, Eric, sounds good
[5:41:16 PM] Daniel says: toodle doo!
[5:41:19 PM] Daniel says: tally ho and all that
[5:41:25 PM] FireFox says: bye :)
[5:41:30 PM] Celestianpower says: Bye FF
[5:41:39 PM] Eric says: Bye. :)
[5:42:02 PM] Natalya says: That looks to conclude the meeting!
