Talk:Eric Lindros
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[edit] Lindros and Quebec
Please stop deleting the comments about how Eric Lindros is represented in Quebec. Lindros is a very polarizing figure in Canada and it is important that this be kept in mind in an encyclopedic entry about the man. The people on Wikipedia who delete the entry about Lindros's role as a prototypical White Protestant ghost in the minds of Quebeckers are themselves American and do not fully appreciate this nuanced but important aspect of the Canadian sociopolitical scene. This important point is not inaccurate on its face and does not represent a POV. It is common knowledge in Canada that Lindros is loathed in Quebec - partly for shunning the Nordiques and partly for embodying the tall White Protestant male. Quebeckers' fear and loathing of Lindros is both rational and irrational. Let the point stand. Hanes3777.
- "As well, Lindros is seen to represent the epitome of White Protestant Ontario-based manliness, with its attendant arrogance towards the wishes of the more culturally sensitive Quebecois population." Really, you can't see why I'm editting that??? ccwaters 03:25, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
I edited my paragraph to meet some of your POV concerns. I hardly, however, characterize my discussion about Lindros as hate speech. It is true that Lindros epitomizes certain negative stereotypes of the White Protestant male as he is portrayed in the consciousness of Quebec. Quebeckers have a certain place for Lindros in their psyche and the bottled up angst towards WASPs in general are displayed in large force whenever Lindros plays in Montreal or Quebec City (before they moved in 1995). This phenonenum is not discussed much in the politically correct Canadian media, although you hear mention of it in the Quebec press. Lindros is both loathed and envied for being a successful WASP who shunned Quebec by refusing to play for the Nordiques. He epitomizes all the distasteful Canadian WASP's who have "denied" Quebec over the years and have prevented it from achieving its cultural destiny.
I attended a Leaf game in Montreal this year. Whenever Lindros touched the puck, the boos were loud, intense and defeaning! Keep in mind, the Lindros-Nordiques fiasco took place over 14 years ago! Lindros represents more than just a whiney draft pick who wanted a better deal. Lindros represents a cleavage that runs deep within the Quebec people. Lindros is
an important symbol of the awkward issue of the English-French divide which both mars and spices up Canadian history. Let those three or four sentences stay in the article. From a Canadian perspective, this may end up being Lindros's most important legacy.
Hanes3777
- This is an encyclopedia article about a hockey player. If you concerned about Quebec's "cultural destiny" I'd advise you to find another outlet to express it. ccwaters 11:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- As CCW said, find another outlet to express Quebecois' manifest destiny in attempting to further separate themselves from Anglophone Canada; if you want to provide a viable, non-biased source who agrees with what you're saying that's one thing, but what you're currently adding is culturally biased and unverifiable. RasputinAXP c 15:29, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
Please stop calling my entries about Lindros "hate speech". You don't know the meaning of the term if you use it so loosely. I'm simply stating how Lindros is represented within the Quebecois consciousness as a prototypical White Protestant Canadian male who shunned Quebec. I don't badmouth Canadian White Protestant males nor do I badmouth the Quebecois people. You purposely use the term "hate" simply because I am discussing a sensitive issue. That doesn't make it "hate"! If were to discuss Sammy Sosa, and how he is represent in the Latino consciousness within the United States, would that also constitute hatred? Or if I wrote how sometimes George W. Bush is portrayed as the "prototypical arrogant gringo" in Latin America, would that also constitute hate speech? Perhaps my entry lacked some verficiation and was tinged with subjectivity, but it sure didn't constitute hatred. I await an apology. Hanes3777
- These edits are POV. For example, can you provide a reliable source that can substantiate your sentance, "The people of Quebec never forgot Lindros's stark refusal to play in Quebec." -- JamesTeterenko 22:55, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- Make those proposed edits at Sammy Sosa and George W. Bush and report back if your results differ. ccwaters 14:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
It is NOT wrong to indicate the Quebec controversy in this article, but it isn't vital to understanding Lindros' life and career outside of Quebec, and should only be mentioned in passing, while a article on, say the Culture of Quebec or the National Question could explore it further in depth. The other thing is that the article should mention a) that Lindros is disliked in Quebec, and b) why, c) where to go to find out more, and that's it. It shouldn't go into a lengthy description of him a stereotype of an evil WASP opressor. Kevlar67 07:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- Alright, let's take the phrase "hate speech" off the table as being just as polarizing as the comments it decries. That being said, remarks about "oppression" and "White Protestant Ontario Man" are extremely uncalled for and out of place in a NPOV encyclopedia, all based on a single incident where a teenager who (correctly) figured he could dictate where he could play did so. Considering that the Lindros trade was one of the most overwhelmingly one-sided deals in hockey history, you'd think that Quebecois still boiling over this fifteen years after the fact should be snickering instead. Give it a rest. RGTraynor 20:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
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- Yeah but a) the team left just before they won the cup (the would boil my but too) and b) it's more about deep-seated cultural and political questions that hockey. Which is precisely why it should be briefly mentioned. But that's it. And leave it up to people who actually want to write Quebec-themed articles to explain it. Kevlar67 10:46, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
I would just like to add that I never portrayed Lindros as an evil WASP oppressor. He made his decision in 1991 based primarily on his self-interest. However, because of his actions, Lindros represents the negatively stereotypical White Protestant English Canadian in the hearts of Quebeckers. He's a big sturdy alpha male from Ontario who took one look at Quebec and said "No thank you". The implications from his decision abounded. 'Quebec isn't good enough for the prototypical White Protestant Canadian male?' people asked. It really was a proverbial slap in the face. White Protestant domination, which in the minds of most Quebeckers led to their second rate status both economically and politically within Canada, rendered the Nordiques organization too impotent to acquire the best stock that English Canada had to offer. It was a double whammy! Lindros, inadvertedly, but assuredly, occupies a role in the sociopolitical divide that permeates Canada. I have included a source to back up this assertion.
I realize that Lindros's legacy includes more than this issue. He was a hockey player of the Mark Messier style who never quite lived up to his potential, riddled with injuries throughout his career, the source of a lopsided trade, but still a decent hockey man at the end of the day. But the Lindros-Nordiques saga offers an opportunity for a hockey player to transcend the mundane and have his legacy fuse into the fabric of a cultural and political debate. We, as Wikipedia editors, should show a little intellectual courage and present this important aspect of Lindros's legacy. We must ask ourselves: how will Lindros be remembered in 50 years? This is an encyclopedia - not a weekly 'Hockey News' segment. So please stop deleting this important contribution. Hanes3777
- I reverted your edit again. You still haven't provided a reliable source for your statements; the reference you tried to use just said that Quebeckers were angry at him back when he was drafted. It contained no reference to the following statements you continue to add:
- he is incessantly booed by the crowd.
- It's because of his "Anglican sturdiness and lack of respect for French Canadian culture"
- that he "epitomize(s) all the negative stereotypes of the White Protestant Ontario man"
- Pardon the pun, but you're skating on really thin ice, here. Please at least sign with ~~~~ next time, and you might want to get yourself an account. RasputinAXP c 09:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
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The fact that he is booed should be included - because it's true. It may not be sourced on the internet -yet - but anyone who watched a Montreal / Philly game or Montreal / Rangers game in the last decade can attest to this. As for the fact that he is booed because he is a white Ontario Protestant stereotype.... I dont think it gets much more POV than that.
Lindros had a bad reputation among Ontario Alliance and OMHA before and during his tenure in the OHL because he was known for running the smallest guy on the ice. Bad form in the old days before the instigator rule - he made quite a few enemies on the ice.... (its also the reason why I remember everyone cheering when Scott Stevens hammered him - the general feeling was "couldnt have happened to a better guy")
Refusal to play for two teams - one of them the Nordiques only added to the animosity.
That much is true... but I have a hard time believing that French-Canadian fans are booing him because he is Protestant and white.
And no - I haven't found a source even for the boos yet.... but Im looking... the CBC archives have to be good for something.
American fans might find it all hard to believe... but hockey gets taken pretty seriously North of the border.. even more so in those days when the rules hadnt been quite as watered down and the honour system was enforced more than it is today.
CanadianPhaedrus 15:44, 11 March 2006 (UTC)CanadianPhaedrus
- I know Canadian fans may find it hard to believe, but a lot of us Americans take hockey pretty seriously too. The issue isn't that we're dirty Americans not understanding the Canadian national pastime, but that you're adding unsourced, unverifiable information to the article. I could talk til I'm blue in the face of "Buy a Porsche, Hextall, Buy a Porsche! *CLAP*CLAP*" and "PELLE'S DEAAAAAAAAAAD! PELLE'S DEAAAAAAD!" chants at MSG, but I don't have a solid source for it, it's just what I've seen, heard and talked about. RasputinAXP c 16:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I meant no offense.... just to me the talk page read as if people were incredulous of hockey fans booing a player over something that seems trivial!
Nor was I implying that American players are dirty - players of all nationalities are taking liberties because of the instigator rule and the most recent no fighting in the last 5 minutes..... dont get me started!!
I know the Northern U.S. knows hockey - its nothing new. My comments were more directed to the Southern U.S. where 5 years ago hockey was nothing more than a strange sport played by damaged people.... the Nashville and Phoenix fans!
Yeah yeah its unsourced... hence the reason for me spending more time than usual looking on CBC... I'll find it somewhere... I love to see Lindros booed!
CanadianPhaedrus 21:16, 11 March 2006 (UTC)CanadianPhaedrus
- Okay, I know how to fix this. Both sides have to agree to two points, and no edits (none!) should be made until we resolve these two points: A) Is Lindros' bad reputation in Quebec and the underlying cultural and political baggage that goes with it worthy of inclusion? I say it is. What do others think? B) Can we agree to source all comments, and not attempt to "read in" what we think the people of Quebec may or may not think? Can we agree to try out all new edits on this topic in the Talk section before messing with the Main Page?(Haine3777 I'm looking at you!) Let's agree to solve those two areas first, and then we can work on the details. Kevlar67 08:36, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
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- Should I edit the laundry list of sport figures that Philadelphia booes at? Should I make contrived statements that "X player's whiney Y religous/ethnic background was incompatible with the hard working blue collar Catholic Philadelphians"? Lindros was a spoiled kid who refused to play for 2 horrible teams : one in Quebec, one in Ontario. To imply ethnic motivations is ridiculous. ccwaters 13:39, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
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- Depends, will they still be booing at them 15 years from now? I don't understand your "contrived statement" argument. To imply "ethnic motivations" by whom is ridiculous? Lindros? Or Quebeckers? I don't get it. Here are the facts: Lindros didn't want to play in Quebec for whatever reason (we don't know). People in Quebec interpreted that as a slight against their society and culture. Now whether that was Lindros' intention at this point is irrelevant!!! At this point it has gone into Quebec's national psyche, and that's what the article should mention: that Quebeckers feel slighted by Lindros. It shouldn't say that he's an evil WASP, and it shouldn't say that Quebeckers are whiney because those are POVs. The mention of the public feeling of grievance against Lindros in Quebec isn't POV, it's a well known fact in Canada (English Canada too). It doesn't matter if you think that is rediculous, that's your own POV, which you are entitled to, but that has no bearing on the truth as hand. By mentioning this public feeling we are not endorsing it, we are simply reporting the facts, because that's what we are supposed to do. Kevlar67 14:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
- Sourcing anything with something that's usable as a source is fine. Find me a CBC report, or Sports Illustrated, or the Hockey News, not a random webpage, webboard or blog that says what you're trying to add that's contentious, and at least we have SOME way of accounting for it. I'd think the "Quebec National Psyche" is more hurt over the loss of the Nordiques than Lindros. RasputinAXP c 17:31, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Elvis Stojko
Over the years I've read varying reports (possibly an urban legend) that Lindros engaged figure staker Elvis Stojko in a barroom fight and lost (Stojko is reportedly a black belt martial artist), however I've never seen any actual conclusive evidence to support the story. Does anyone know if it's true? Avalyn 03:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
The Stojko fight rumours are completely false.
True or not, the idea that a hockey player, especially one with Lindros' size and skills, could lose a fight to a male figure skater... let's just say it doesn't make Number 88 look too good. And if he denies it, it makes him look like a sore loser. And is Stojko denies it, who's gonna believe him? It's one of those stories that too good to not want it to be true.
[edit] Question
On ESPN's "SportsCentury" -- a good one, although it could have been expanded to a full hour, such has been Lindros' career -- someone was shown saying, because of the injuries, head cases (figurative and literal/medical) and dashed expectations, "This wasn't the next Gretzky, this wasn't even the first Lindros." Does anyone remember who said it? If anyone knows, I think the line should be included in the entry. If I had remembered, I would've entered it myself, but I don't.
[edit] Sources
I won't even get into the whole Quebec debate, but other than that there are quite a few different places that I believe need sources:
- Lindros's father wrote the Flyers a letter in which he stated that if the trainer had followed team orders, Eric would be dead (a statement supported by the doctors who treated him in Nashville).
- He was given permission by a doctor to resume training; however, two doctors (who have never examined or treated him) have suggested Lindros retire. - This line also doesn't seem to follow nPOV; sounds as if the author is saying that the doctors don't know what they're talking about because they havent examined him.
If anyone can find any links validating these statements, that would be helpful. I'm not gonna bother adding citation needed tags, personally I hate those things, but as an encyclopedic article, citations should be included.--J.a.f.a.c. 05:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Hold on...
TSN is reporting as of 6:20 EST on July 16th 2006 that Lindros is NOT actually on the Dallas Stars. Secondly, he was drafted first overall by Quebec, and held out on them, causing him to be traded to the Flyers, not what is represented on the main page.