Talk:Ergine
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Article LSA listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion Apr 27 to May 3 2004, consensus was not reached. Discussion:
Page exists due to a persistent myth that LSA is the active hallucinogen in seeds of certain Convolvulaceae species. Actually the active agent of these seeds has not been determined, and it is probably not LSA, but one or more of the related ergolines (see that entry for discussion). Since the topic covers multiple chemicals and multiple plant species, it should live either in the chemical family entry (ergolines) or the plant family entry (Convolvulaceae). I opted for the former, made the page with general info including info on the hallucinogenic seeds, and ended up not copying over any text from the LSA entry because it is mostly not worth keeping. For example, sentence 1 is false (see ergoline). Sentence 3 talks about species of a species (???) and fails to note that Heavenly Blues etc are varieties of I. tricolor, or that many other species are known to contain ergolines. Sentence 4 is irrelavant and untrue (isolating it from all the other stuff is complicated). Sentence 5 is false. Sentence 6 is irrelevant and will potentially attract criticism of wikipedia for inciting illegal activities. That leaves sentence 2 which is neither here nor there after considering the fact that LSA is probably not of interest anyway. So I vote deleting all the text and replacing the page with a redirect to ergoline. -- Rkundalini 13:28, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Keep, with edits. Never heard of this before. Although, if what you say is true, thats no reason to delete an article on such a significant chemical as lysergic acid amide. If the myth is so persistent (as it is noted on the Lycaeum and Erowid both as LSA being the active psychoactive ingredient is Morning glory seeds), then people are going to come here and not ergolines for information. I propose not a redirect, but rather a massive rewrite of the article. With sources that back up your data. DryGrain 13:54, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- If LSA was a redirect to ergoline, that wouldn't be a problem. But still if you (& others?) think a page especially for LSA (in addition to the coverage it gets in ergoline, seeing it is one) is worth doing to dispel the misinformation, I can go with that. --Rkundalini 09:05, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- You mean the morning glory thing is just a myth? Well, I've been had. Keep the page, though, since it is a real chemical. Right? By the way, I'd type in ololiuqui if I were searching for morning glory seeds. Don't tell me that's different from ergoline . . . or is it? Wiwaxia 04:32, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- It is a real chemical, but it is no more special (in fact, less special) than many of the other ergoline derivatives (of which it is a member) that are covered under ergoline and do not need to command their own page. Re "I've been had" maybe I've not been clear enough... the seeds are indeed hallucinogenic, they do indeed contain LSA, but LSA is seemingly not hallucinogenic, so one or more of the many other ergoline derivatives present is likely responsible for the hallucinogenic effect. Do I need to make this issue a bit clearer in the ergoline entry? -- Rkundalini 09:05, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- So LSA is in the morning glory seeds after all? Oh, you should definitely clarify this in the article. Looks like the "correlation implies causation" attitude has been active in this myth. If you write that in, people will understand EXACTLY whether the myth is true and what the actual circumstances are. Wiwaxia 12:01, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- It is a real chemical, but it is no more special (in fact, less special) than many of the other ergoline derivatives (of which it is a member) that are covered under ergoline and do not need to command their own page. Re "I've been had" maybe I've not been clear enough... the seeds are indeed hallucinogenic, they do indeed contain LSA, but LSA is seemingly not hallucinogenic, so one or more of the many other ergoline derivatives present is likely responsible for the hallucinogenic effect. Do I need to make this issue a bit clearer in the ergoline entry? -- Rkundalini 09:05, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- Since the voting period has elapsed without much interest, I'll go with DryGrain's suggestion. Rkundalini 11:47, 3 May 2004 (UTC)
End discussion
[edit] Page Moved
I moved the page to ergine, since this is the name most frequently used in literature. I could be wrong but I think the term LSA was cooked up somewhere along the line in internet / amateur literature since it sounds like "LSD". The name used by Sandoz (who named LSD) was LA-111, not LAA. The name ergine was switched to when it was first found in nature. Rkundalini 12:12, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
[edit] A myth? Please!
I suggest you read "Practical LSD Manufacture" by Uncle Fester. Also, take a look in the Erowid Vaults under LSA. I believe that it would be impossible for it to be a myth, since crystalline LSA can be (and has been) obtained from said seeds, and used for hallucinogenic purposes. If it were really another chemical (What's your mystery chemical?), it surely would have been discovered. All of the scientific information says that LSA is a hallucinogen, refer to "Psychedelic Chemistry, Third Expanded Edition" by Peter Stafford. If you still have your doubts, I suggest you follow simple extraction methods (tried and true) to get crystalline LSA, and dose yourself.
(Above stuff apparently by "Ddhix 2002")
- Regarding your statement that ergine can and has been obtained from the seeds and used for hallucinogenic purposes, and your suggestion that I (break the law and) follow simple extraction methods to get crystalline LSA, and dose myself: both of these statements are perfect illustrations of the correlation implies causation logical fallacy pointed out by Wiwaxia above. Yes, an alkaloid extract of the seeds will be predominantly composed of ergine, yes the extract will be impressively psychedelic. This does not imply that ergine is impressively psychedelic. The fact that numerous articles, especially ones on the web (e.g. the ones in the Erowid LSA vault), say that this is true, does not make it true. Only human trials of doses of pure ergine can prove or disprove the claim, and of all the trials I know of, which are all listed in part 2 of the article Mixing the kykeon are pretty unimpressive and tend to indicate that strong somatic and soporific effects are accompanied by at best a weak psychedelic action. Unless those books provide any information on further human trials of pure ergine, they have nothing to say about the matter. If they do, could you provide us with an excerpt? The idea that ergine isn't necessarily the active agent is not some thing I have made up myself. If you need to hear it from some big names, check out chapter 17 and entry 26 of TiHKAL, and part 2 of the article Mixing the kykeon. Regarding your question of what is "my mystery chemical", it could be any of the quite a few other ergolines that have been found in the seeds in lesser amounts, or it could be a result of synergies between the various ergolines present. Or it could be, after all, that ergine really does produce impressive psychedelic effects and that the previous results were unrepresentative due to e.g. the individual response of the handful of people involved, or due to the clinical setting of the experiment (this is Peter Webster's opinion on the matter), but this is yet to be proven either way. Rkundalini 12:25, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
