Talk:Erast Fandorin

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[edit] Dolgorutski

well, I checked the text, too, and it's; Dolgorukoi [1]

Такими словами приветствовал принаряженного коллежского асессора всемогущий хозяин матушки-Москвы князь Владимир Андреевич Долгорукой.

"Dolgorutski" must be an artefact of some translation (this is different from Sobolev, who is actually so named in the original. dab (ᛏ) 21:59, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

The name of Moscow's governor in the novels should indeed be Dolgorukoi, after Yuri Dolgoruky (Grand Prince George I of Russia), who founded Moscow. Kazak 04:35, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

As far as I can judge, B. Akunin gives "Fandorine", not "Fandorin", as the proper English version of the surname "Фандорин": Erast's grandson, being a British citizen, is "Sir Nicholas А. Fandorine, M.A., Bt." (see [2]) -- Alexander Gerashchenko 10:44, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

that's a fictional anglicization of the name, Sir Nicholas' father emigrated to Britain and adopted that spelling. It is not the transliteration used for Erast's surname (otherwise the anglicization of Nicholas' surname would be lost to English readers): Erast's surname is transliterated Fandorin in English [3], but Fandorine in French. dab (ᛏ) 11:14, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree that the form "Fandorin" is more correct than "Fandorine" according to the English-language standards of transliteration. But this spelling can cause certain problems. E.g., Akunin in his "Altyn-Tolobas" (the book that I provided a link to) mentions the case of incorrect pronunciation of this surname: "Фэндорайн (Fendorain)", caused by reading the French-like transliteration ("Fandorine") according to the English rules. I wonder, how would they translate this passage into English, having the surname spelt as "Fandorin"... -- Alexander Gerashchenko 14:18, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

no, no, Erast (in the 19th century) is called Fandorin (a Russification of German von Dorn). His grandson Nicholas, who lives in England, is called Fandorine. As Nicholas moves back to Russia, his (originally Russian (still more originally German)) name is mispronounced by Russians because of hyper-English pronunciation of its Latin alphabet spelling. This is all irrelevant to Erast, who never anglicized his name and is simply called Fandorin. Does that make sense? I further imagine that the English mispronunciation has its stress on the a while the Russian name has it on the o. dab (ᛏ) 22:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I absolutely agree. Errabee 22:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps I am being stupid here, but, as an American who does not speak Russian but has read all the existing English translations of the Fandorin novels, I can tell you that the correct English spelling is "Fandorin", because that is, in point of fact, the way Erast Fandorin's name is spelled in all four of the currently available English-language Fandorin novels. That's definitive, is it not? Vidor 07:52, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
no that's not the point, but see Russian_transliteration#Transliteration_table: Фандорин transliterates to Fandorin in every single transliteration scheme. That's because each of the name's letter has a straightforward Roman counterpart. Фэндорайн otoh (the 'mispronunciation') can be rendered Fèndorajn, Fėndoraĭn etc., depending on your preferred scheme (but since it is a Cyrillic rendition of English phonology, it will of course be spelled simply Fandorine in an English translation). dab (ᛏ) 08:59, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
@Vidor, thank you for your additions. Unfortunately I had to revert part of it, as it messed up the headers. I hope you can agree with what's written now. Errabee 10:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I think I will add a little more about "Special Assignments" being the English version of two Russian novels. Otherwise it looks just fine. When I checked back on this article last night, the list of Fandorin novels had the title, "Special Assignments", and no text whatsoever underneath. Am chomping at the bit for Special Assignments to come out, BTW. If only I spoke Russian. Vidor 20:17, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree, this stuff is addictive :) disclaimer, my Russian isn't good enough to read them in the original either. But I am grateful for the online text for the occasional comparison of a turn of phrase. dab (ᛏ) 21:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, I can read them in the original, but it takes an ungodly amount of time with my knowledge of the Russian language ;) So I prefer to read them in translation as well (but I do have all the Russian copies in print). Errabee 21:15, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translations

After writing the note above I thought further about this article. I think the listing for "Special Assignments" should say that it's an English translation of two novels and that it's not out in print yet. However, that makes the "Translations" section below redundant, as it says the same thing. Here are my suggestions: 1) Take out the redundant "Translations" section, and perhaps put a line of text somewhere in the main body about the Fandorin novels being translated into several languages. 2) Expand the "Translations" section to include a comprehensive list of which Fandorin novels have been translated into French, German, Spanish, Mandarin Chinese, and other important world languages. Unfortunately I would have no idea where to find this information. Maybe someone who speaks Russian could ask Boris Akunin or his publishers. But we really should do one or the other rather than leave the "Translations" section dangling redundantly. Vidor 20:39, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

How's this? The info from Germany and Italy I got from the German and Italian Wikipedia, respectively, and because I'm Dutch, I'm very aware of the situation in the Netherlands. Errabee 21:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
That is excellent. Hopefully Fandorin fans from other countries will stumble upon this article and add further info, but what you put is excellent. Vidor 21:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Another user deleted the list entry for "Special Assignments". Therefore I decided to go ahead and take the notes out of the list entries for "The Jack of Spades" and "The Decorator" and leave the "Special Assignments" info in the Translations section, as before. Vidor 06:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I just realized that the two books were published together also in Russian, sorry. (ᛎ) qɐp 10:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Wow, so they are. If you look at the section of Akunin's website that includes the texts of the first six Fandorin books, "The Jack of Spades" and "The Decorator" have the same covers. Perhaps someone who speaks Russian can give us more info about the manner in which those books were published. Were they published together under a different title, a-la "Special Assignments"? Or simply bound together under their own titles? Vidor 08:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
They were bound together as Special Assignments. Errabee 09:10, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
In Russian as well as in English? All righty then. Here I've been thinking the whole time that "Special Assignments" was organized in that form specifically for us Anglophones. Vidor 10:10, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, I have pretty much answered my own question. Let me say that it's damn hard to research this when one doesn't speak Russian. Here is a Russian website advertising the Russian version of "Special Assignments". Also, the Erast Fandorin website linked to on the main page of this article, www.fandorin.ru, has an option that lets you translate it to English. Here is the English translation of the FAQ page, and here is the same page in the original Russian, confirming that "The Jack of Spades" and "The Decorator" were indeed originally published together, in Russian, under the single title "Special Assignments".

I'd like to apologize to user Errabee. It was my mistaken notion that "Special Assignments" was only published that way in English translation that led to confusion. I will try and re-edit the main article again to accurately indicate such. Vidor 07:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I thought your question was already answered. My apologies if that wasn't quite clear. Errabee 07:56, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you did answer it above. I just had to find it for myself to make sure. Vidor 08:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Comics

Anyone have any info on the comic adaptation of Azazel? I own it, but my copy's in another country.

Thanks for the heads up. I was able to find some info. Errabee 10:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copied from WP:RFF

With the help of Vidor and dab, I transformed the article about the fictional detective Erast Fandorin from this starting point.

Right now, I'm a bit out of inspiration as to what needs to be done next. I'd really like to get this article to at least GA-grade, but I think some work needs to be done first. Any comments are welcome. (P.S. English is not my mother tongue, so any comments on that are also very welcome). Errabee 12:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

If English is your second language, you can be extremely proud of this work.
I'd suggest you focus on the criterion that an article be broad in its coverage. In this respect make sure it addresses all major aspects of the topic (this requirement is slightly weaker than the "comprehensiveness" required by WP:FAC) while staying focused on the main topic (no non-notable trivia). I'd suggest you put the detective novel in Russia into context:
  • Who were Boris Akunin's Russian mystery predecessors?
  • Where mysteries commonly written by Russians in Russia in the period Boris Akunin wrote or was Fandorin a trend setter for the period?
  • Who were Boris Akunin contemporaries on the international scene?
  • And similar context points...
Well done - Williamborg (Bill) 13:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll look into it (but have to do some additional research). Errabee 14:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
  • It's interesting enough to make me want to read the novels, but it needs some context as mentioned above (although his period is now): such things as critical reception, style, how the novels fit in with his other works. I've given the beginning a bit of a copyedit - the English is generally good, but there are were some movements between past and present tense.
    • The section: "Personal life" is written from an "in-universe" perspective (i.e. as if the character is a real person). Wikipedia articles should be written from an "out-of-universe" perspective. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction). I haven't copyedited this section as a result.
    • Some of the literal Russian translations of the book subtitles are probably a little too literal
    • The translations sections could do with some work. Why are no more editions to be translated into Dutch? Who are the publishers? How have the translations been received?
    • Same goes for the adaptations sections. Are all the adaptations in Russian? Where have they been shown? How were they received? There is more information on the adaptations and awards in the Boris Akunin article than there is here.
Hope this helps Yomanganitalk 15:29, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
It does :) Thanks a lot Errabee 16:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
All the television, film and stage adaptations have all been in Russian. Incidentally, I changed the verbiage of the Paul Verhoeven section a little bit. If Verhoeven's IMDb page is any evidence, there doesn't seem to be an English-language version of The Winter Queen in the making at this time. I mentioned that Random House is the American publisher of Fandorin novels. I also edited the "Personal life" section somewhat, putting it all in present tense. Incidentally, I've seen nothing to indicate that Special Assignments will be published in the USA in 2007--the Amazon.uk link has been up for some time but there is still no listing at amazon.com. I hope that doesn't have any significance. Vidor 15:31, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Russian titles?

What was the thinking behind deleting the Russian titles of some of the Fandorin novels? Vidor 15:02, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

they were not deleted, they were exported to the various sub-articles. I agree that for all the recent expansion, the article is now lacking a clean overview list of novels (title, original title, year, ISBN). How about adding one back? dab (ᛏ) 17:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
They were deleted from the main article, for no reason I can see. Vidor 18:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I exported them to the subarticles, because I felt that they were a distraction from the flow of the text. If you want to read about Fandorin, and some Russian characters pop in every paragraph, this does not allow for easy reading for readers who are not familiar with cyrillic. Furthermore, the subtitles are difficult to translate, and it was a comment from the WP:RFF that got me thinking. I'm planning to create stubs for the other novels as well, so all the Russian titles can be moved there. I'm sympathetic to adding an overview, but think it should all be concentrated in one area, so the cyrillic can easily be skipped for readers not familiar with it. Errabee 23:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, I disagree completely. First, in at least two cases--"The Winter Queen" and "Murder on the Leviathan"--the English book title is DIFFERENT than the Russian book title. In the first case, completely different. That should be reflected in the main article. Secondly, I don't think it's too distracting to have one line saying "Russian Азазель, Azazel" or "Russian Турецкий гамбит". These are, after all, books from Russia originally published in Russian. Leaving out the subtitles is OK, I guess, but all the articles really, really should have one line with the Russian title in the original Cyrillic. I will put them back if no one objects. Vidor 13:26, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
How about adding a table as an overview? Put everything not related to the story in one separate paragraph, that's easier to read. Errabee 22:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
How about this solution? Errabee 02:59, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

nice list! thanks for your efforts, Errabee. dab (ᛏ) 07:31, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Love the table. Great job, Errabee. Vidor 13:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
You're now okay with removing the Cyrillic from the lower sections? If so, I'll continue to create the individual articles and moving the info to those pages. Errabee 14:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Yup. Sure am. Vidor 00:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] translations

Is it an idea to list only information about the English translation, and create a page Erast Fandorin in translation in which all languages and countries are mentioned? I think that the current section is either not complete, or going to get very long. Errabee 11:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

An excellent idea. But leave the pictures of the translations in the main article, as they do make the page look nicer, unless you can substitute film stills. BTW, I have a sneaking, and very depressing, suspiction that "Special Assignments" isn't going to be published in the USA. I can't find anything about it at the Random House website, and the American version of Amazon.com doesn't have a listing, despite the fact that Amazon.uk has had a listing for several months, with the Jan. '07 publication date. Does anybody have info? Vidor 13:29, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Very sorry to hear that. Unfortunately I don't have any additional info. Why don't you try e-mailing Random House? Errabee 22:14, 10 September 2006 (UTC) BTW, it's indeed very unfortunate, because my two favorites are The Jack of Spades and Coronation (due to the person who tells the story). Errabee 22:25, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I think premature fragmentation of a topic is unwise. Erast Fandorin in translation may become necessary in the future, but as of now, until this article becomes over-long (more than 50k or so), I see no reason to branch out sub-topics. dab (ᛏ) 07:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paul Verhoeven still wants to make a film out of The Winter Queen

Paul Verhoeven had a 1-hour interview on Dutch radio today. He briefly mentioned The Winter Queen as a film he wanted to make next year, but nothing was certain yet. Errabee 02:51, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UK versus US titles

I'm getting a little confused here. Which titles should we use, UK or US titles? In at least two cases they are different: Leviathan (Weidenfeld and Nicolson, UK) vs Murder on the Leviathan (Phoenix Press, Random House) and Turkish Gambit (W&N, UK and Phoenix Press) vs The Turkish Gambit (Random House) Errabee 17:37, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Speaking as an American, I'd say use the American, because there are more of us.  :) Plus, both of those novels already have their own articles, under the American titles. But if you want to change to the British titles, that's fine. This won't be a problem for future novels in the series, as the bastards at Random House apparently aren't publishing any more Fandorin novels in the USA. Vidor 04:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Top importance?

Is this really of top importance among novels? More important than The Great Gatsby? john k 17:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

it's slightly over-enthusiastic, I tend to agree :) dab (ᛏ) 19:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, it marks the revival of literature in the Post-Soviet era. I could live with High as well, but several other entries were rated Top important with which Fandorin compared positively, imho. And in the High category, things are even worse, I think. Errabee 21:34, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Passing

Very well written, well sourced and set out, images appear to be OK. 3 suggestions prehaps cite the Russian spelling, and you have to Italicise Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, but I think that's not enough to warrant failing the GA or eveb holding it, i've gone and done it myself, good work everyone

†he Bread 07:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UK publication order

Does anyone know why Murder on the Leviathan was published as the second Fandorin bok in the UK, and The Turkish Gambit as the third?

I certainly don't. But one can speculate that this is simply a marketing strategy. The Turkish Gambit is far more difficult to read, because western readers are not familiar with the background of the Russo-Turkish War of 1777-1778. Errabee 10:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More comments

Copied from my talk page:

It's much improved since I last looked at it. Some comments:
  • It needs a copyedit - I didn't want to storm in there, but just ask if you want me to go through it
  • It is overlinked - the book titles only need linking once, not every time they are used
  • I'd move the table on the titles to the end, as it breaks the flow of the article where it is now
  • The section on the individual titles is somewhat stilted and listy - you can expand on the details slightly even if they have their own articles, and I'd also expand the date/location at the beginning of each to be a complete sentence rather than a fragment.
  • The awards section would be better rewritten as prose rather than presented as a small list
  • There are too many images used under a fair use rationale - this will be looked at very closely if you put it forward for FA - you'd be pushing it with four and there are nine currently.
Hope this helps and congratulations on the GA. Yomanganitalk 21:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I've removed some links, and moved the table to the bottom. Still working on other points. Errabee 08:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
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