Talk:Epic of Gilgamesh
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[edit] time-frame Troubles
For the entire history of the Epic, there is: Old Babylonian, Middle Assyrian, and Neo-Assyrian; to pick a 'number', we are dealing with about 1000 to 1500+ (plus) years of a Re-worked, and re-read Epic. The various "tablet notes", (footnotes etc), have the sparse variations in Syllables, phrases, and even additions/ deletions of lines(paragraphs). I still think the "Meteorite" stanzas of Chapter 1 and 2, (the word used 10 times), are the more profound, with their implications to human history. (See Kovacs, reference and translation.) (kisru played against Zikru; the three s's, s, ş and š(sh) and z are all interchangeable in this, basically "No vowel used" language.)
[edit] old talk
This bit about an untranslated tablet believed to be the twelfth tablet of Gilgamesh... where does the information come from? How come the tablet is "believed to contain" something when it's untranslated? Can anyone provide a link to a more informative news story? _________________________________________________________
I read that the 12th tablet had been translated and does not contain the 12th chapter of the epic. It contains a separate poem about Gilgamesh. In contrast to the first 11 tablets it includes both Shumerian and Akkadian texts.
Moved the passage about the Akkadian versions to the main part, as it did not belong to the 'Sumerian legends'. --Oop 11:15, Sep 26, 2004 (UTC)
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Although the epic itself was lost for millennia, Hittite versions of it existed. Some people think that it has had an indirect impact on Western literature through the Biblical story of Noah and the flood, a suspected retelling of a portion of the Gilgamesh epic.
I'm a bit confused about the Hittite referrence since the most complete version we have of the Gilgamesh epic comes from the 7th century BC, long after the Hittite empire but also contemporary with the writing of the Bible. I'm going to go ahead and delete that part for now (someone may wish to revert and provide clarification). Grice 06:32, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Some serious criticism is needed to find out which versions of Gilgamesh epic have influenced the Old Testament the most. So, I would not dare to claim a special status for the Hittite version. While it may have been an important source for the Greek loans, I also would not say the genuine epic was lost for the time whilst Hittite version would have been dominant, as the passage above seems to suggest. Maybe it is only a question of bad wording, of course. --Oop 21:30, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] removed relevant bit
this got tossed out with the "trivia" section and could later be re-introduced into a more detailed version (if correct):
- The Great flood from the Epic of Gilgamesh describes a cube-shaped vessel some 60 meters long on each side that was built in only seven days.
dab 19:22, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The purpose of mentioning this is to claim that the bible account is entirely different.
It is important to note that the trivia section failed to mention the similarities.
If the description goes back in then the similarities must be added as well. To fail to do so is not applying NPOV.
There is an article Great Flood which discusses the details of the flood account in the Epic of Gilgamesh. That article is where such detail belongs, if anywhere. And addition to that article also requires the addition of details of the similarities to be an NPOV addition. CheeseDreams 19:34, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- and your point is? the "trivia" section was not mine, and I considered deleting it before. You will note that I only cite the Gilgamesh bit, not the Genesis bit that was there also. Since this article is about the Epic of Gilgamesh, a more detailed summary of the action could eventually include this information. At the moment though, it was, I agree, just trivia. dab 19:48, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Dubious deletions concerning Gilgamesh
Please refrain from your habitual deletions on the Gilgamesh articles regarding homosexuality. I am sure this is a misunderstanding. If you view the Epic of Gilgamesh entry and click on the link entitled "Is gay marriage older than the Bible?" you will see all requested information and sources. If you have any questions be sure to bring them up. Thanks. 67.41.186.237 02:42, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Please refrain from adding dubious information to wikipedia. The link is dead. In general, websites are not reliable source if info and in absense of more solid data are disregarded. On my website I may post an article that Gilgamesh is my grandfather and send you to hell. I am perfectly aware that homosexuality was widesplead in ancient world, e.g., in Greece and East, but this is the case that requires solid confirmation, not some sensationalist article circulating in blogs. thank you. mikka (t) 02:50, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[1] This is hardly sensationalist. Not some personal blog but an acclaimed scholar. Here is a new link since the old one is out of use. 67.41.186.237 02:52, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The key phrases in a review are he admits he doesn't know Akkadian and Given the incomplete condition of the original, he has not hesitated to fill in some gaps. Feel free to write a wikipedia article about this book. mikka (t)
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- that review is by a person not a scholar, that fact still stands that a previously untranslated portion of the 12 tablet contained male homosexuality, that is undisputed 67.41.186.237 02:59, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
and the ref. to he filled in the gaps is concerning story line not sexuality, you should read the book 67.41.186.237 03:00, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Please stop adding unverified information, otherwise you will be blocked from editing. Feel free to write an article about the controversial book. mikka (t)
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- this information is verified, you will be blocked for persistent vandalism. it is ibviously verified, a source is given, and this scholar is acclaimed, your edits are contraversial 67.41.186.237 03:05, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The scholar does not know the language, he cannot be acclaimed as translator. You are violating the 3-revert rule. You may be blocked for this. mikka (t) 03:10, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Mikkalai is an arrogantly vapid twat who needs to check his facts. Try actually reading the book, dipshit. 131.111.195.8 18:37, 6 June 2005 (GMT)
- The scholar does not know the language, he cannot be acclaimed as translator. You are violating the 3-revert rule. You may be blocked for this. mikka (t) 03:10, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- this information is verified, you will be blocked for persistent vandalism. it is ibviously verified, a source is given, and this scholar is acclaimed, your edits are contraversial 67.41.186.237 03:05, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] homosexuality claims
"Some claim" will not do at all. By a long way. What exactly are the claims, and who published them, when and where? I would be interested to have even oblique references to homosexuality in Gilgamesh, but let's keep this up to academic standards. The more outlandish your claim, the better references you will need. Also, anon, at the stage when you think it necessary to begin calling people names like "dipshit", you probably need to sign up so people have a username to respond to. dab (ᛏ) 16:26, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- It is in the reference Mitchell, Stephen (2004). Gilgamesh: A New English Version.
- The guy decided that traditional academic translations are very dry, and he decided to translate it into "modern English" (BTW, he confessed he does not know Akkadian. So you may imagine what academic quality this book is.) It amounted to spreading erotism and sex all over the text AFAIK. the rumors that Tablet 12 was suppressed because of homosexy in it is bull. Ancient pederasty has been pretty well known; and it was not suppressed in academia; rather it was not brandished at every possible occasion. mikka (t) 01:51, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- no, no, I mean a publication where the text is actually discussed, word by word, so that we can quote the actual phrase, with competing reconstructed readings, and their translations, so that we can judge what the allegations are based on. Just saying "there was homosexuality in tablet 12" without discussing the actual text is worthless of course. dab (ᛏ) 08:18, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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- The LGBT Mythology category seems dubious. Having read three different translations, I can't imagine why anyone would conclude that it has any explicitly-stated homosexual themes in it. By applying these types of a loose standards, one could easily classify the Christian Bible as "Incestuous Mythology" based on Gen.19:30-38 and 2S.13:29. I say lose the category until actual text is cited. Most of the text is lost in translation, in my opinion. "Soulmate" citation with regards to Enkidu's relationship with Gilgamesh is archaic is doesn't necessarily imply homosexuality.
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- no, no, I mean a publication where the text is actually discussed, word by word, so that we can quote the actual phrase, with competing reconstructed readings, and their translations, so that we can judge what the allegations are based on. Just saying "there was homosexuality in tablet 12" without discussing the actual text is worthless of course. dab (ᛏ) 08:18, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Should be merged with Gilgamesh page?
Yes. And if there's not going to be any mention of the influence (or "possible influence") on the Bible (and subsequently the Avesta, Qur'an, etc.), than at least put the link to the Great Flood article here. Otherwise it looks suspiciously POV. Khirad 08:28, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
- I agree that there should be some mention of the relationship between the flood story in the epic and other flood myths, including the biblical version. However, as far as the merge is concerned, as yourself one question; would you want to merge The Odyssey and Odysseus? Filiocht | Talk 13:45, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Some more New Talk - The 11/12 "Chapters"
Some common lengths of the Chapters, is about 315 lines. For a 3-column tablet, with say, 52 lines per column, that gives 2 (3-Column) "tablets" per Chapter.( The pictured Tablet has about 50 lines, but represents probably 56-60 lines, some doubled)
I do not know the facts about the Ashurbanipal archives. However, the 1997, Parpola, "Computerized" work, (with a couple of typos only, that I saw), list all the tablets, in all the Museums, collections, etc. The average, with duplication, is about 5 tablets per chapter, about 65 tablets, and probably another 15-20 "pieces". ( 80 % are 3-Column )
I don't have anything against calling the 12 Chapters, 12 Tablets. Parpola's, "Archives of Assyria", work does list everything as Tablet 1, through Tablet 12. So that is consistent with this Wiki page. I just wanted to point out that the Sumerians to the Neo-Assyrians called their Chapter = Tablet. That is the ultimate reasoning why it is Tablet 1 thru Tablet 12. It is really the naming that the Neo-Assyrians stuck with. The chapters, (the 12 'tablets') are really, composed of multiple, mostly 3-Column tablets, 2-Column, as well as some 1-column, and etc.,.. including school tablets.....
Sorry, reread some things; Chapter 12 has 155 lines, 29/30 line columns, up to column VI. 6 times the 30 gives or 29 gives, 174,slightly different than the 155. There are 4 tablets listed for Parpola Standard Babylonian version, tablets A,B,C,D, also e. e is NB Neo-Babylonian, A-D are NA, or Neo-Assyrian (Ashurbanipal's time). (The last ( of the 155 )2 lines are Title Page lines and are separted by spaces.)..(All the 12 Tablets, have an item on the last two lines ( the "colophon"?), which states "Ending, and the title of the next chapter coming up". ) ( The Colophon is also used as a "signature", line or lines. }..M McAnnis
The whole topic could be confusing to one who knows nothing of the 12 Tablets. They really are 12 Chapters, but originally called 12 Tablets. .....Michael McAnnis,YumaAZ
The reason for 'Chapter' discussion. I read a little of the above discussions, and it is not as easy as just grabbing ( 1 ) "tablet" and translating it. It just sounded like every body was talking about one "tablet" to study for chapter 12, or whatever. That's not the reality of it. MMcAnnis
[edit] Note on Tablet 11?
This seems to be very technical and somewhat out-of-place. Is it worth having in the article?--Rob117 19:07, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
- Seconded. I had a hard time trying to figure out what it is saying. At the very least it needs to be rewritten in a less technical format. --71.242.182.172 04:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Trivial?
Though oft pic w a bow, he didn't actually carry 1, but a battleax called Might of Heroism (or so I've read...) Trekphiler 17:37, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Noah's ark page
I'd be grateful if any experts on the subject could have a look at the Noah's ark page, other flood accounts section, which I've just revised. Please note that I'm only after fact-checking - explicit parallels with the Genesis account are not encouraged, being of a highly inflammatory nature. Thanks. PiCo 02:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Oldest work of literature
Let's talk here about how we should phrase the first sentence, i.e., is it "The oldest known" work of literature, "one of the oldest known", "arguable the oldest known", etc. Given the possibility of other texts, I think it should read "is arguable the oldest work of literature" with a [1] at the bottom of the page explaining the uncertainty. AdamBiswanger1 00:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- Works for me. Change it to "arguably," though for grammatical correctness. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk • E 20:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Influence on later Epic Literature
The source cited for influence on the Odyssey (Kakridis) is rather old, and also unavailable in English. It should be replaced by a reference to something more recent and in English. I'd suggest e.g. M.L. West 1997, The East Face of Helicon. I don't have a copy to hand so can't do it myself. Petrouchka 22:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Disambiguation
this should be included in the gilgamesh disabiguation page