Talk:Enki

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[edit] Name origin

As far as I know, in spite of Ea being the Babylonian incarnation of the sumerian Enki, the word "Ea" is itself a Sumerian name; it seems that the word "Enki" was more of a title for whichever one of the gods was responsible for the day-to-day administration of the Earth realm, and that Ea/Enki held such a position.

There are some tales that support this concept; in one of the tellings of the Confusion of Languages (originating the Biblical story of the Tower of Babel), Enki differentiated all the languages because he was jealous of the fact that Enlil took all the glory while he was stuck with most of the menial administrative work; and the fact that he held and dispensed the Me, the edicts of civilization. -- Wtrmute

[edit] Merge suggestion

As Enki and Ea are the same diety and much of this information overlaps, I feel that they should be merged into one article, with Ea redirecting to Enki. Any peculiarities specific to the Babylonian incarnation could be addressed in a section of the Enki page. Opinions? -- Krishva 03:22, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Quite appeal. Ea is known as sumerian name of the swampy water that, once divided from plains, didn't carry pestilence from mud. Enki is the man, consider it as a myth, that worked to inhabit these muddy places with water engineering, as terraforming, so sites that were seen as negative was turned to useful camps. Enki is the engineer, as the class of technician workers that contribute to obtain this peculiar process for Sumerian people. --Phunster 10:30, 14 Dec 2005 (UTC)
My instinct is to say no. I think Enki should be derived only from Sumerian accounts while Ea should be derived from Babylonian/Akkadian. One distinct reason for this is that, while there may not be any contraditions between the surviving accounts of both gods, there may be lost information about Enki that does not agree with that of Ea. In a parallel issue, some desire has been expressed to split Inanna from Ishtar. --Tydaj 00:56, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
If there is a substantial amount of information separating Ea from Enki, I would tend to say it should be added to the articles to differentiate them. Right now, they contain much of the same information, and they tend to admit Ea as a derivation from Enki without much differentiation.
If there is in fact little to no differentiation between Ea and Enki (as was my impression), maybe the articles could be merged until such information is brought to light? It doesn't seem to me like the structure of Wikipedia articles should reflect a speculation about future discoveries. --Krishva 06:12, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Theories

According to Sumarian Mythology, the 'physical' god-being Lord Enki (as opposed to the personified archetype) was a propenent of allowing humanity survive the Flood that caused the Great Collapse in 12,000 BCE. After Enlil, Anu and the rest of the apparent Council of Heaven decided that Man would undergo total annihilation and rebirth, he covertly rescued the human man Ziusudra by either instructing him to build some kind of an ark for his family, or by bringing him into the heavens in a magic boat. This is apparently the source for the Noah's Ark myth, though the Ziusudra myth in itself may be rooted in yet older myths dating back as far as 11,000 BCE (but there is no way of proving it at present, due to the apparent nonexistence of writing during the time that these myths presumably existed--they are generally reverse-engineered to some degree from the oral traditions of indigenous peoples).

The above was written by User:Khranus, who was well-known for trying to add ridiculous crank theories to Wikipedia before he eventually got banned. However, unlike the stuff he'd tried adding directly to this article about some entity called LULU, the stuff here in talk looks vaguely plausible to me. Would anyone familiar with Sumerian mythology please comment? Bryan 08:14, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
There is no mention of anything happening in the region 11,000 BCE or 12,000 BCE. Nor anything about humans surviving the flood. The Flandrian transgression, in which oceas rose with the meltwater after the Glacial maximum saw sea levels rise at about 1 milimeter per year (if that) - hardly likely to Cause a flood. The only exception to that are the three semi-landlocked Seas of the Middle East - the Persian Gulf (through the Straits of Hormuz), the Black Sea (through the Bosphorus) and the Red Sea (through the Bab el Mandib). They flooded at different times, and there was a "breach of the dam wall" effect in each case. The Black Sea was the last to flood (circa 5,600 BCE).
The Noah Story relates to Ubar Tutu (or his son) King of Sharrupak. He may have organised the evacuation of the people of Sharrupak to higher ground circa 3,100 BCE or thereabouts, perhaps using river barges, during a flood that lasted 7 days, and went from horizon to horizon. The flood sediments at Sharrupak have been found.
  • The flood happened around 4000 BC. I heard there was archeological proof about it. Igor Skoglund

[edit] proto-hacker

what is a proto-hacker?

prototype of a modern hacker. Yes the above text about enki is quite true. --Konrads 20:31, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "Great Collapse"

Ah, yes: the 'Great Collapse' of 12,000 B.C. The Barley Market Crash. This entry requires Adult attention. (I'm not the most competent in this area...)--Wetman 13:27, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] article partly wrong !


Enki was a young son of Nammu and An.
Enki was married to Ninhursag.
Enki made love with his daughter : Ninsar and got a baby-girl : Ninkurra.
Later, he made love with Ninkurra and got a baby-girl : Uttu.
Great Collapse in 12,000 BCE is false. There was no great collapse, but a flood which happened in about 3150 BC.
The given dates are wrong : sumerians exist only since 4000 BC !
LU.LU didnt exist.
After his death, Enki became the God of the water and Magic.
Zecharia Sitchin and "The Lost Book of Enki" : this book is full of false things. The theory is false and contains science-fiction. This has nothing to do in Wikipedia...how sad.

Indeed, this article seems an utter hodge-podge of historical mythological info and New Age conjecture. I do what I can to clean it up, and I going to assume that your points are correct in my editing. If anyone wants to refute them, go ahead. -Tydaj 3 July 2005 00:57 (UTC)
It would seem the only way to prevent Sitchin's views from leaking into the concept of the actual historical view is to have a seperate section for Sitchin. Otherwise these problems would probably repeat themselves. -Tydaj 3 July 2005 02:13 (UTC)
Could you please point me to the story of Enki's death. I don't believe he did die. Enki was God of water and magic from the start.
Regards
John D. Croft 07:00, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inky?

Why does Inky redirect here? I wanted the packman ghost. -Jubeanation

[edit] Merge suggestion

I think Ea should be merged with this article due to overlapping info. See Talk:Ea for discussion. --Krishva 03:28, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

I agree Ea Should be merged with the Enki article being they are both the same deity.Khaosinfire 04:42, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Apzu changed to Apsu

The first reference to the Abyss was spelled Apzu and the second Apsu. They both redirect to Apsû, so i changed the spelling of the first reference to Absu for consistency. -- divine.androgyne

In fact Apsu was the Akkadian version of the earlier Sumerian Abzu (where Ab = water, Zu = far (or deep)) I have added this to the article.
Regards John D. Croft 08:07, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] jessica simpson?

Someone should probably remove the Jessica Simpson picture in the 'His portayal' section. Is there an actual picture that goes with the caption or should the whole thing be removed?

[edit] Jessica Simpson

The original photo of Enki.jpg showed the Jessica Simpson album cover. If you guys want your photo, then make a new file instead of overriting the old one.--CyberGhostface 21:11, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gratuitous Connecting of Sumerian and Biblical Mythoi

Let me first say that I would freely grant the historical connection between the ancient Hebrews and other, older Semitic peoples of Mesopotamia. That their mythology should contain rough parallels with the mythology of other groups in the area is to be expected, and can indeed be clearly supported by historical research and textual criticism.

That said, this theme is simply done to death in this article. If you are talking about the Gilgamesh flood myth, a reference to Noah would not be untoward. When the Tower of Babel comes up, it is certainly proper to mention the Lament for Ur. But what about the following?

The Gods gather in terror, but Enlil (his place in the Enuma Elish is later taken by Enki's son Marduk) subdues and slays Tiamat with the arrows of his winds which he shoots down her throat. The Bible refers indirectly to this in Genesis 1:3 "And the breath of God moved across the face of the waters".

What on earth does this mean? I am not an expert on this subject, so perhaps there is some commonly-understood connection that is simply not being properly referenced here, but I see no connection between these two things. The biblical passage quoted is very obscure and must have been intended as a further indication of the chaotic state of the universe at the time. I mean, at this point in the narrative the ocean and sky haven't even been separated - light had not yet been created and separated from the darkness. But somehow some ancient Hebrew storyteller thought it was appropriate to reference Marduk's battle with Tiamat here? This is absurd. Reference the often-proposed connection between Nimrod and Marduk, if you really want to do something like that, but this just doesn't make sense.

Then,

The pool of the Abzu at the front of his temple, was adopted also at the temple to Nanna (Akkadian Sin) the Moon, at Ur, and spread throughout the Middle East. It remains, as the sacred pool at Mosques, and as the Baptismal font in Christian Churches.

I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous. We somehow need to explain why the religions of desert-dwelling people feature water as a significant, sacred substance? It's not enough that it is the basis of all life on earth? And rather scarce in the desert? It has to be because of some past precedent? Has the author of this passage heard of Occam's Razor?

I see no way around the simple deletion of the sentences quoted above. I also personally feel the need (since this is a pervasive theme in this article) to go through and tone it down just a tad, to make the article a little more scholarly. Since this will involve a decently major revision, I wanted to announce my intentions before I went and did anything (just in case I'm missing something huge that someone wants to talk to me about).

As the author of much of this material - there are clear links between the 'deep' (Biblical Tehwom and Babylonian Tiamat). The spirit of God (Hebrew ruach = breath) is liked to the wind or air God Enlil (later called El-lil, God of air, and linked to the Biblical El = God). Regarding the Abzu, there is clear links in sacred architecture throughout the Middle East from Sumerian temples to Mosques and churches of today. Finally can you please sign your name John D. Croft 16:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] some more infos !

Enki (young boy), lord of the sea and the magic, He was son of Nammu and An.

One day, Enlil and Enki will fight about Cattle and Grain. We dont know the end of the story ! It may be the same story than of Abel and Cain.

We can only suppose that Enki killed his older brother Enlil. And after that, his parents made him leave the isle of Bahrain. He had to exile in Sumer (Iraq).

Enki fell in love and made love with his sister Ninhursag . They got one daughter Ninsar. Enki was sex-obsessed and full of lust. He made love to his daughter Ninsar and got a baby-girl : Ninkurra, goddess of Mountain Pastures. Enki left Dilmun to Sumer with a boat and created the city of Eridug. Some years later, Enki made love with Ninkurra and got a baby-girl : Uttu , goddess of weaving and clothing. One day, he was very curious, so he ate Ninhursag's plants and became very ill. Ninhursag healed him. After his death, Enki became the God of the water and Magic. Ninhursag became the earth Goddess also called Nintu (the lady who gave birth) and Ki (Earth) and Ninmah (the exalted lady).

Enki and Ninhursag had many children : - Ninsar , the Mistress of Vegetation, - Dumuzi (rightful son in sumerian), King-God of Bad-tibira , stables, milk and fertility (Tamuz in Akkadian), - Geshtinanna the Mistress of wine.

Source : http://persocite.francite.com/saggiga/

This source is highly suspect. I know of no story of Enlil being killed by Enki. The author is confusing this story with another referring to a struggle between farmers and herders, that in fact relates to the seasonal changes in Southern Iraq and lies possibly behind the story of Cain and Abel. As a result I have deleted this from the article. John D. Croft 17:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I will come up with sources.Saggiga


I think references to Ea should be removed because it is not good to mix sumerian and semitic mythologies, it mixes all up !.

Paragraph "Ea" and West Semitic deities should be removed.



And also this article should be made much shorter ....

[edit] questions

Hi, John D. Croft

Could you please explain me what this has to do with Enki ?? Yoiu added many stuff with Babylonian and chrisitan religion, but it has nothing to do with Enki and Sumer.

[edit] some comments about the article

1/ why did you remove the part I added about the fight of Enki and Enlil ? One source for this : http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/sumer-faq.html "The Dispute between Cattle and Grain" Enlil and Enki, at Enki's urging, create farms and fields for the grain goddess Ashnan and the cattle goddess Lahar. This area has places for Lahar to take care of the animals and Ashnan to grow the crops. The two agricultural deities get drunk and begin fighting, so it falls to Enlil and Enki to resolve their conflict - how they do so has not been recovered. (Kramer 1961 pp. 53-54; Kramer 1963 pp. 220-223)

2/ Mixing sumerian and assyro-babylonian Mythology is not correct. Why are you talking about Ea here when this god replaced Enki 1000 years later and took all its attributes ? You can find sumerian stories of Enki at : http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/sumer-faq.html

3/ There are some errors like "Eridu, (Uru = City, Idug = Good) ." In fact, Eridug comes from Eri.dugga means "City" + "Good, sweet". Those errors are hard to find because the article is much too long.

4/ This article should be made much shorter and clearer : -Keep only facts that are agreed. -Divide this article in clearer topics : origins, translation, attributes, story 1, story 2, story 3, conclusion etc. -Remove babylonian myths talking about Ea (like Atrahasis,six generations of Gods etc.) and move them to article about Ea.

As you are updating this often, please could you do it John D. Croft ;).

Regards

Saggiga

you are welcome to improve the article, but note that there is no separate article about Ea. Both Ea and Enki are treated in this article. They can still be divided into separate sections I suppose. dab (ᛏ) 23:17, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Well I have updated the article but unfortunately , John D. Croft deleted all that.
I hope he will do updates because this article doesnt belong to him or to anyone.
I also hope he will kindly take my comments into account.
If not, other people should do it.
Regards
Saggiga
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