Talk:Endgame
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The books that I have listed as "looks elementry/introductory" are books that I don't have, but I think that they are elementry or introductory based on sample pages or reviews. Bubba73
The paragraph under "queen endings" that begins "Endings with asymmetric piece possession ..." seems misplaced since it doesn't refer to queen endings, but I don't know where it should go. It was in this location before I expanded "endings without pawns" and moved knight endings and bishop endings above rook endings. Also, I'm not sure that the comment about asymetrical material arangements being less common. Does someone have an idea about where this paragraph should go, and if it should be changed? Bubba73
I added the Misc Books section and moved some of the ones I marked as "looks elementry/introductory" there. I don't have those books, so if anyone has them, please feel free to make a comment about them and move them to one of the other sections, if appropriate. Bubba73
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[edit] "All rook endings are drawn"
"All rook endings are drawn" - most sources say this quote was from Tarrasch, but Korchnoi says Tartakower instead. I don't know which is right, but I'm inclined to think that the majority (Tarrasch) is probably right. Also, though, most sources say "All rook endings are drawn" instead of "All rook AND PAWN endings are drawn", but I didn't make note of that. Again, I'm inclined to go with the majority and leave out "and pawn". --Bubba73 03:52, 21 May 2005 (UTC)
[edit] asymmetrical positions
The article says "Endings with asymmetric piece possession are less common". Is this really true? I think I read somewhere that the most common endgame was a rook versus a minor piece, with pawns. Bubba73 20:37, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
- I removed this sentence since the table doesn't seem to bear that out. PErhaps a rephrasing of it should be restored. Bubba73 (talk), 21:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Table of most common endings
I added a table of the most common endgames in actualgames, based on data in Muller & Lamprecht. However, they have "pawn endings" and then "K+P vs. K". I don't know whether the second is included in the first. Also, they have "R vs R" and then "R+P vs. R" and "R+2P vs R", and I don't know if "R vs R" includes the second and third category. Bubba73 (talk), 20:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
- I put in the table based on Muller & Lamprecht, then I added the second table, breaking down the "rook & minor piece" vs "rook & minor piece" category into its components, based on other data in M&L. A recent edit removed the first table as being redundant. It is to an extent, but M&L saw fit to remove the first table. I'm not going to argue about it, but I would like to hear some comments about whether what was the first table should be in there or not. Thanks. Bubba73 (talk), 03:21, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Longest Wins
I added the number of moves for the NNNN vs. Q win (85).
For the 290 move win, I removed the references to the mate in a further 6 moves, since the 6 moves is really the shorted distance to mate or capture. Indeed, the distance to mate from the position after the rook capture on move 290 would be 8. However, that does not mean that the starting position for the 290 move win is a mate in 298. Some confusion has been caused in some circles by the inappropriate mixing of distance to win and distance to mate concepts. -Marc Bourzutschky, 12/18/2005.
- Yes, thanks, I believe you're right. It is easy (for me at least) to get confused between shortest path to mate and shortest path to conversion. Bubba73 (talk), 03:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Diagrams
The diagrams in the "endings with pawns" need to be closer to the text that discusses them, and I don't know how to do that. Bubba73 (talk), 01:05, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Drawn games
I think that section shouldn't be there, because everything is already covered in draw (chess). That being said, I'm not removing it because I'd like to know if there's any chance of fixing that into the scope of endgame draws, principally stalemate and the fifty-move rule. fetofs Hello! 18:34, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- That's what I said in the comment to my edit a few hours ago. I also doubt that it needs to be here, for the same reason as you mentioned. But I didn't see fit to remove it just yet. Perhaps what you are talking about is giving examples of endgames that are stalemates and draws under the 50-move rule? There is probably already an example at stalemate. Bubba73 (talk), 23:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
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- That's fine with me. I think it could be removed, though (with a link to draw (chess) left in). Bubba73 (talk), 14:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
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- Thinking about it some more, I think it should be removed. It is a way games can end, but not necessarily an "ending", as we usually use the term. A draw by agreement certainly doesn't have to come in an ending and 3-fold doesn't either. 50-move probably does, but not necessarily; same with stalemate. Bubba73 (talk), 14:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
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- A draw is a common resolution, and may often occur in the endgame, so it should remain in, but a link should also be present. --GW_Simulations|User Page | Talk | Contribs | E-mail 19:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
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- Yes, but a draw is not specific to the endgame, and there is already an artticle on draws. Also, the section says that the most common reasons for a draw are stalemate, 50-moves, and insufficient material; and that others are agreement and 3-fold. Draws by agreement are the most common in the endgame, probably followed by insufficient material. 50-move is quite rare. Bubba73 (talk), 20:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- That has changed since I last checked. It used to say that the 50-move rule was uncommon. --GW_Simulations|User Page | Talk | Contribs | E-mail 20:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, but a draw is not specific to the endgame, and there is already an artticle on draws. Also, the section says that the most common reasons for a draw are stalemate, 50-moves, and insufficient material; and that others are agreement and 3-fold. Draws by agreement are the most common in the endgame, probably followed by insufficient material. 50-move is quite rare. Bubba73 (talk), 20:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
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- From above "A draw is a common resolution, and may often occur in the endgame". Resignations, some time forfeits, and sometimes checkmates occur in the endgame too. But all of these (including draws) cn occur in any phase of the game, so surely this is mentioned elsewhere, such as the main chess article. I'm not seeing much significance of the section of draws in this article. Bubba73 (talk), 03:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
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- Besides being in draw (chess), it is in the main chess article as well as rules of chess. I think it is suffucient to mention that an endgame may end in a draw or a win for one of the players. But that seems obvious. Bubba73 (talk), 03:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] For other uses of the word...
Has anybody noticed that the article suggests that for other uses of the word Endgame, we look at the article for... Endgame? Is this a leftover from when there were multiple articles on the subject, or what?--Raguleader 06:08, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- Your observation is correct. It probably is a left over from something, I'm not sure though. Perhaps this should be moved to Endgame (chess) and this page could have links to it and other uses, but I don't know of a pages of other uses. Bubba73 (talk), 03:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
- I fixed the "other uses", but do you think the article should be moved to Endgame (chess)? Bubba73 (talk), 03:12, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
- Similar related articles are named middlegame and chess opening. Bubba73 (talk), 03:15, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] white/black -> attacking/defending
I replaced the assumption that white is the attacking side and replaced "black" and "white" with "defender" and "attacker", resp. Does anyone have any thoughts? Bubba73 (talk), 03:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Your defender/attacker terminology is obviously more precise. I don't have strong feelings about it either way. Krakatoa 04:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
