Talk:Empire

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[edit] Really Empires?

I don't know if the following states should be considered empires.

[edit] American Empire

The U.S. is a empire today?

Bullshit. Sure, it did stuff like a empire, and maybe was one.

Its not ruled by an emperor. Every state invades. Its got no colonies. What kind of an empire would that be then? The US is also a democracy and doesn't force beliefs of Religion or Culture like the Arab empire, or any empire tried.


Does not force beliefs of religion and culture? (no idea why YOU, Mr. O'reilly, used big letters) Get fucking real.

[edit] A TIMELINE, dammit

I think there done oughter be a timeline of Empires. We can start by timelisting the below list:

Historical empires (with approximate dates)
Early empires
First millennium AD
Early Second millenium AD
Late 2nd millenum AD
20th

* The United Kingdom still has many overseas territories, and also the commonwealth realms are considered to be completely self governing colonies as they recognise the British monarch as their head of state.

** De facto, The British Empire ended in the 1960s

Why does an empire have to exist as a "multi-etnic state"? A large collection of similiar states might still be an empire, might it not? Avalon 11:15, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

  • That would look a lot better. Just make sure to include all of the empires listed. 12.220.47.145 19:30, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Oh, and when it means "multi-ethnic" that would include similar states. Otherwise the Akkadians for example wouldn't be considered an empire. 12.220.47.145 19:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] THIRD REICH

Why isnt the third reich considered an empire? Mrdthree 19:49, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the third reich does fit the deffention of an Empire. It did invade and control countries.--Scott3 12:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cleanup

I added the cleanup tag because this article is disorganized and could use wikification. see my edit as of 20:29 11/28/05 to see what I mean by reorganizing. --Phil 01:33, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Evil Empire

Perhaps including something along the lines of "Although Ronald Reagan once referred to the Soviet Union as the 'Evil Empire', it is, in fact, not an empire, and he was just being the alliterate phrase-spewing anthropomorphic raisin he is known as today".

[edit] Definition of Empire

It is tough to define exactly what is meant by "Empire", although what is present on this page seems sufficient. The problem is that a timeline of Empires cannot be completely objective under these circumstances. I offer the example of the inclusion of "American Empire", which is definately a debateable point (i.e. yes the states do have an enormous range of influence, but does that really mean they are an "empire"?).

It's a very disambiguations term,
firstly an empire can have a metroploe and land overseas which is clearly the kind of empire many imagine looking at European colonial powers. this gets very confusing when one looks at land based sprawling empires like Russia/USSR, austor-Hungarian, etc - can these be compared with the previous category?
secondly do we really suppose that "empire" is based solely upon land ownership, think about informal influence (UK in Egypt, Iran, Argentina, etc) and more recently the USA.... Similarly empire is often an expression of the very vague concept of power (be it political, military, diplomatic, economic, religious, etc, etc)
IMHO it all a load of very vague notions, with no proper defining that is clear and decisive, making it very hard to compare "empire" across time and various regions. Pickle 05:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] American Empire ???

In reference to the list of empires on this talk page, I feel it must be made clear that while America may be a de facto empire, it is not a de jure empire, and has never styled itself an empire, nor has it ever had an emperor. Although it is certainly powerful enough to be termed 'imperial', and could be described as 'multi-ethnic' because of its sovereignty over Guam, Puerto Rico and Hawaii, I think that we should restrict this article to the de jure definition of empires. (Arguably, under this definition, the British Empire was not an empire either, but Queen Victoria was styled Empress of India, and the term British Empire was in common use among British people until after WWII.) Walton monarchist89 12:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

See American Empire (term). It's a debate as old as the sun. Well, not quite that old. Interestingly, the same thing was said by a Dutchman about Dutch Empire. Note that in the course of the Spanish-American War, the USA attacked and took over what was left of the Spanish Empire - Guam, Philippines, Cuba and Puerto Rico. These were Spanish imperial possessions that then became American possessions. Did they suddenly cease to be "imperial"? There were certainly many in the US at that time that looked enviously on European empires and believed that it was time for the USA to have a piece of the cake too. There were also many that looked down on America acting like Old Europe. In the Penguin History of the United States by High Brogan (arguably a "bread and butter" history book, not controversial), "imperialism (American)" appears in the index with several entries. If American imperialism can be talked of, then one can arguably talk of an American Empire, even if the United States did not relabel itself as such, or the common folk use it in every day conversation. Gsd2000 12:51, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
That couldn't have been better expressed. Indeed, the very usage is controversial among us. --Wetman 01:08, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Is manifest destiny imperial, is then acquiring Alaska and Hawaii imperial ?, certainly the acquisition of the former Spanish colonies is colonial. the more important thing, especially today is the informal empire, the non formal control over various areas. in the context of the study of the British empire we refer to places like Argentina (just a massive investor), and Iran (formal treaty over oil rights) as informal empire. thus this term can be transfered across to the US, but this highlights the problem of what on earth is empire, imperialism, et al, as no one can agree one common definition. Pickle 21:47, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
America became an Empire after the Spanish-American War in 1898. After it acquired Guam, the Philippines, Cuba and Puerto Rico, it became an Imperial power to match those in Europe and was being recognized by those powers as a powerful country. In the Spanish-American War article it even says in the Aftermath section that America became an Imperial power. Also all Empires do not have to have emperors. Certainly the Spanish Empire did not have an Emperor/Empress, right? Lord Vader 4:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Few people other than the Chamorro, Puerto Ricans, possibly Samoans, Hawaiians, and native Americans could really care if America is an empire or not Isaac Crumm 09:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Unbelievably, this article contains no central discussion of imperial systems other than European/Western empires. This is ethnocentric, culturally biased, and fundamentally incomplete. There have been empires and imperial systems for centuries before the crusades, or the European colonial empires, or the discussion of whether or not American hegemony constituthttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Empire&action=edit&section=6es empire. Without a substantial discussion of the many many empires of the past, this article remains irretrievably one-sided.—thames 19:23, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Your criticism doesn't make it sound so irretrievable; all you need do is add content on non-European empires. siafu 19:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree. If you really want to see loads of info about other empires, add it yourself. Isaac Crumm 09:01, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm removing the POV tag as this is a misuse of it. The article does mention non-Western empires - just because the largest section happens to be on Western imperialism doesn't mean that it's POV, it just means that as Siafu says, it needs to be beefed up for non-European empires. This article is not arguing that imperialism equals Western imperialism, so it's not POV. Just incomplete. Gsd2000 21:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Just to add to my comment above - the article begins: "An empire ... comprises a set of regions locally ruled by governors, viceroys or client kings in the name of an emperor." What is POV or culturally biased about that? It goes on to say "The actual political concept predates the Romans by several hundred years: empires began to appear soon after the first cities made the necessary administrative structures possible. The Akkadian Empire of Sargon of Akkad furnishes one of the earliest known examples." This is saying exactly what you said in your criticism: "There have been empires and imperial systems for centuries before the crusades". Gsd2000 21:35, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
It contains a handful of sentences on imperial systems other than European/Western. It has multiple long sections on European/Western/United States imperialism. According to WP:NPOV#Undue_weight, that is precisely a violation of NPOV. The tag ought to remain until the balance is restored.—thames 21:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
That section, which I already read before posting above, is about viewpoints. This article is not expressing competing views! Again, this article is not arguing that imperialism equals Western imperialism - that would be a viewpoint. Gsd2000 22:01, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Alternately, instead of insisting on NPOV and putting a tag in place, you could just expand the article as needed. siafu 22:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
WP:NPOV#Anglo-American_focus is also an NPOV problem with this page. It's not NPOV by commission, it's NPOV by omission. I would love to expand the article, discussing the major imperial systems, but that takes time, and until that time, the NPOV tag serves as a warning to the reader.—thames 22:07, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Apparently you have plenty of time for berating this article here on the talk page, but not on actually improving the content. This is curious, as I was under the impression that the purpose of editting wikipedia was to spend time on improving the encyclopedia. siafu 17:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Hold on, you are complaining about Empires that existed before the Crusades. How can a failure to adequately mention them be cultural bias when those cultures have been non-existent for centuries?!! I really believe that you are misunderstanding what the NPOV should be used for. Gsd2000 22:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

The more I read about NPOV the more I think it is crazy to tag this article NPOV. "The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these are fairly presented, but not asserted. All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It is not asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions." There are no conflicting views here!!! Each historical era of empire is not a "view", absolutely nowhere on this article does it espouse the view that empire equals Western empire, and a failure to have enough words on non-European empires does not equal a "biased" view let alone any view at all. This article clearly states that there were empires other than European ones. Gsd2000 22:24, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted the NPOV tag again. The "expand" tags that you have added correctly address the concern that you are raising. Tagging this as NPOV is misleading in itself. Gsd2000 22:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
It's POV because by omitting any substantive discussion of non-Western imperialism, this article has implicit anti-Western or Euro-centric focus. The implication is that only the West has imperialism notable enough to warrant discussion, which is clearly not the case. That's one-sided and reflects the bias of the editors up to this point.—thames 03:07, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
The fact that non-European empires existed is mentioned already mentioned several times. There are several references to non-European empires in the first two paragraphs and in the list of empires at the end. If all editors held your opinion about NPOV, Wikipedia would be strewn with NPOV tags for factual articles that are incomplete, with one set of facts discussed more than another set. Now, if there was absolutely no mention of an empire other than European ones then I would agree that this article was biased - but it does mention it, several times, so it's not biased, just needs fleshing out with the expand tags that you put in. By labelling it NPOV you are indicating to the user that it is advocating a particular point of view - but it's patently not. Gsd2000 11:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
It remains NPOV. A few trifling sentences to represent several thousand years of empires from Akkad to China to India to Africa, and then several thousand words on European empire and how American hegemony "might" be empire is a complete misrepresentation of the concept of Empire. It is NPOV by omission not commission.—thames 13:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gerrymandering

Although the phenomenon discussed is very real, and great source of turmoil to the empires/colonies, I don't think gerrymandering is the right term to describe it. Perhaps a term that means something much more arbitrary than gerrymander. It was also a big problem in the Middle East and in Africa.Isaac Crumm 09:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I also thought "gerrymandering" was inappropriate when reading the article, so I took the liberty of rewording the sentence to remove the term. Equendil Talk 10:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English use

Why does empire not have 'the' before it? Skinnyweed 12:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you talking about the name of the article ? If so it would imply the article is about one empire in particular, which it isn't, in addition, it's contrary to naming conventions on Wikipedia, see WP:NAME#General conventions Equendil Talk 10:28, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modern "empires"

I removed the last paragraph of this section:

This is the usual US-bashing that characterizes Wikipedia. It should not be re-added unless the weasel words ("may be known", "many suggest") are removed or re-worded and cited. This whole paragraph is one big [citation needed] tag.

Also the superfluous comparison of the civil war with the definition of empire needs to go - if nothing else because it clashes with the friggin' definition given at the start of the article, not to mention it's a lame attempt at a lead-in from thin air.

European Union seems to qualify for a modern empire see European Union gets its military fist, European Defense Agency, European Rapid Reaction Force.Mrdthree 13:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

That's a pretty weak argument, just because the E.U has a developing united Military Force does not make it an Empire. To be an Empire it must Dominate some other territories against their will, all the Territory of the E.U has entered into it totally voluntarily and Democratically. You might call the E.U a superpower, but it is not an Empire. Because of this I've removed the European Union from the List of Empires, again. --Hibernian 16:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
The EU is exerting its hegemony on people in the former Yugoslavia. Mrdthree 16:38, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

And are you going to present any evidence of this? The only thing I can think of to make sense of your claim in the E.U's peace-keeping mission in Bosnia EUFOR, and that mission is recognized by the U.N and is willingly accepted by the Bosnian Government, so to call it a "Military Hegemony" is very strange. It's not like the E.U invaded Bosnia and started dictating to them or something. So unless you can come up with a good argument (or even a source that calls the E.U and Empire) I'll be removing it again from the list. If the E.U is to be mentioned on this page there will first have to be a section explaining why it is believed that the E.U is an Empire, you cannot just blatantly put it in a list of Empires without some discussion. --Hibernian 01:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Haitian Empire

I removed the "haitian empire" entry (that linked to history of Haiti) from the list of empires, while rulers named themselves "emperors" on two occasions, I don't think Haiti could qualify as an "empire" during any period of its history. Equendil Talk 10:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roman Impire date

According to this link it is debated when the roman impire rise. I'll be putting somthing the article. I'll also put both dates of the collapse of the eastern and western impire.--Scott3 17:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Empires

The list section of this article is becoming very long; it's already longer than the entire rest of the article. It's also, IMO, the contentious part of the whole thing as editors passing by have often added or removed entries without discussion. If there are no objections to the split, I'll go ahead and do it myself tomorrow. siafu 22:09, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

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