User talk:Elrith/Archive01

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Contents

[edit] Welcome!

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contribution. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! User:Zeimusu

[edit] Esa Tikkanen

Hmm. Do you think adding Esa Tikkanen's tour of duty with the Anyang Halla Winna of the Asia League Ice Hockey (See #10 here: [1]) would be useful? And isn't it 'Tikkanese'? -William McDuff 05:41, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

  • About adding stats from Asia: sure! It's sports trivia, and you can *never* have too much sports trivia. =) If you have any knowledge of Asian leagues I think it would be great if you added stuff about them to any relevant player pages. I'm trying to get Finnish league information about players onto Wikipedia myself. -Elrith

[edit] Jani Rita and so on. . .

Hi, I just noticed your improvements to Jani Rita's article, and thought I would drop you a line about Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey, which you might want to join, given your contributions. It's always good to add another Finn to the project (my grandparents immigrated to Canada, and it's always been a dream of mine to learn the language, but it's hard to find courses in northernBritish Columbia!). --Scimitar parley 18:00, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

  • Hi, and thanks! I signed up, and I'll get to work slapping the templates on the pages I've made so far. I'd appreciate it if you check out some of the player pages I've created, like Tim Thomas or Steve Kariya, and tell me what you think. If you do ever get the opportunity to learn Finnish, it's a tough ride; it really is totally unrelated to English, or anything else... I'm starting Estonian in my next university semester myself. -Elrith 01:23, 9.8.05
  • Yes, I'm told it's quite a tough language. Those player pages (especially the one on Thomas!) look quite good. You'll probably find that most hockey players don't have an entry, so even just a couple of paragraphs on one is helpful. It's true for NHL players, and there's even fewer entries for professionals in the European elite leagues. The one thing that could be added is a stats table, but I'm not really sure how to do that correctly. In any case, it isn't that important, unless you want to get an article up to featured status. --Scimitar parley 14:38, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
  • This is what happens when you give me ideas. =) I stole the table straight off the template on the Wikiproject Ice Hockey pages. I'll work on getting stats for Jani and some of the other guys up later this week. Hockeydb.com is occasionally pretty lousy about including foreign league stats, so I'm also getting stuff from the official SM-liiga website. I reckon that should be good enough. I'll keep working on the Finnish players' pages, and try to get stats up for Glen and Steve, too. Thanks for the encouragement! -Elrith 01:45, 10.8.05
    • Nice work! There aren't a whole lot of people working on the hockey articles (I do what I can, but mostly focus on the Edmonton Oilers). It's good to see Tim Thomas alnded on his feet. I never thought the Bruins ever really gave him a fair shot, even at a backup role. --Scimitar parley 17:38, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Thanks! I looked Tim's stats over when I was typing them up and I'm really surprised he never got a better shot at the NHL. With Raycroft on board I understand why he's their number one guy, but still. I have to say I'm happy we have him here, smashing records. I've watched him play a number of times and the man is a truly spectacular goalie. -Elrith 00:13 11.8.05

[edit] Conscientious Objector?

Hy, I noticed that your a conscientious objector- I was just at the funeral of a guy who went to a CO camp in Canada during WWII. Is your stand based on religious grounds or personal preference? (and just throw a rock at me if this is too personal a question :) ). On another note, TSN.ca is reporting that the Oilers have signed Rita to a one-year deal, so maybe I will get to see him play this year after all! --Scimitar parley 20:32, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

  • Yup, I noticed Rita's signing too. Turns out he had an NHL clause in his contract, and he took it. Darn. =) And the question isn't too personal at all; I'm a libertarian and I think conscription is a serious human rights violation. It's nothing more than slave labor, and I refuse to be any part of the system. I don't have anything against the military, it's just conscription. -Elrith, 00:15 11.8.05
    • Cool, on both counts. I keep hearing talk the Oilers have given up on Rita, so I was pretty happy to see that he's gonna get another shot. He really hasn't had a good oppurtunity to establish himself yet. Could be Mactavish doesn't like him, I guess. --Scimitar parley 21:45, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
  • I think Jani is an easy player to misuse. He was on the Finnish national team in this year's world championships, and came away with 0+1 after playing in nearly all the games. His NHL stats aren't exactly impressive, either. On the other hand, he led the SM-liiga playoffs in goals last season. I think he was one of a huge number of players who were totally misused on the national team, which is why he only scored that single assist. He's pretty good on the ice when given a chance to shine, so I hope he gets it next season. But a lot of Finnish players have found that you only get so many chances in the NHL, and if you don't use them, it's the AHL or back home. 17:35, 13.8.05

[edit] Finnish volunteers

Hello! Just wanted to point out that your edit to Finnish Waffen SS volunteers wasn't really a revert. A revert usually means one goes back to a earlier version of the article. Just figured I should tell you.

I also wanted to comment on that I think your comments on Talk:Winter_War seem a bit agressive. But that might just be the way I read them. Especially your first comment seemed to be aimed at me, and I just changed one word! :) Usually one gets better results by being friendly. We are not fighting a battle here, just building an encyclopedia. -- Jniemenmaa 14:09, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

The reason I made the edit was that I had indicated in the change history that I was still working on the page when you edited it. You may be correct that it wasn't technically a revert, but I had listed the items in a specific order for a reason, and you changed it without explaining why. I didn't think it was a particularly helpful edit and it wrecked the outline for the page I was building. While editing, I realized I might as well explain what I meant with the bare headlines, which was why I ended up changing it.
As for the winter war article, frankly, your edit was ridiculous. The claim that "allied with Nazi Germany" is POV while "with Nazi Germany" is not is laughable. I know my comments seem aggressive, but when I am presented with propaganda reasons for changing my edits, I don't know how to argue against them rationally. I intentionally abandoned participating in any way in the existing articles on Finland in the Second World War because of the massive bias toward the Finnish "politically correct" view of the war, which means accepting contemporary political propaganda like "co-belligerence" as fact. If Finland and Nazi Germany were not allied in the Second World War, this requires redefining "allied" to a definition by which no two countries in the war were allied. I realize that you and many of the other contributors to these articles won't accept this, and I don't have the time or energy to try to persuade you, since I would be arguing against a political belief. I won't be making any further appearances on those pages. -Elrith, 17.8.05

[edit] Jesse Niinimaki

Hey, thanks for the note. I've been meaning to do a page on him for a little while now (it was somewhere on my to-do list, although I'm not sure where). I added some links and categories. Do you know if he's going to see top-6 ice time with Jokerit?--Scimitar parley 13:46, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

  • That's good, hopefully he'll have a little more success there after an abysmal AHL season. He showed flashes, but couldn't consistently compete here, from what I saw. From what I read, part of that might have been the language barrier and culture shock, in which case this might actually be a step back in terms of NHL development. Ah well, at least he'll get to play.--Scimitar parley 15:37, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] regarding your opinion

it sucks. please remove your head from your ass.

  • Actually, adding nonsense to Wikipedia sucks. You may find I'm not the only person who feels that way. Elrith 22:37, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, you just added nonsense to wikipedia. you are an ignorant fool. pray tell which school you went to, i want to roundhouse-kick your teachers.

I did contribute in a positive way, it is of your opinion that i was "adding nonsense", please go to supermarket, buy reading glasses, and read.

  • How is that? Who is Sam John Johnston? Is it really someone who needs to have a Wikipedia article written about them? If it is, then go ahead and write the article, and then add a link to it. If they are, "a person" is not really an appropriate title for anyone. If they're important enough to be featured in an online encyclopedia, they must have some other, more sensible title. Elrith 22:55, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Who is Elrith? What is September 18th? What is wikipedia? who are you to judge what is and what isn't "nonsense"?

  • Elrith is my username on Wikipedia, and this is my user page. A user page is a personal page entirely distinct from Wikipedia articles. If you register with Wikipedia, you can have your own user page, which is where you can write about yourself. September 18th is a date, and Wikipedia has articles on calendar dates. There are Wikipedia guidelines that give an idea of what Wikipedia is and what is regarded as "nonsense", for example: Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not and Wikipedia:Welcome,_newcomers. Elrith 23:22, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

ok, here is a grand fucking question for you. What is sarcasm? What is a rhetorical question? Where do we find the line between our alternate reality and that of our day-job as a kebab salesman? Why must the weather be dull? How high is the moon? Again, yet once again my son, i ask you to read.

  • I see there's no point in continuing this discussion. Elrith 23:34, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

This is not a discussion Elrith, To me it seems to be a bit of education given from me to you, cherish it, Pray the education system will one day improve, and hapless idiots like you will no-longer be the product of a society that feeds the mouths of such idiots.

  • I really think it would be good if you read Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks before you post anything else to Wikipedia. Your behaviour here is below any standard of decency. Elrith 23:50, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

I am not a man built upon foundations of "standards", "standards" are the epiphany of the white-trash suburban-living MTV-watching youth of today. "standards" are for a mind which cannot be controlled by it's operator; "standards" are for people who cannot travel their own path, they must travel down the path taken by others, following the same mistakes of generations past.

[edit] satan

i noticed you were the only other wikipedia satanist. props on that, hail satan, and good day. --Eel 17:40, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Template:User er

I think Template:User er-1, Template:User er-2, Template:User er-3, Template:User er-4 should be moved/renamed as Template:User art-er-1 etc, as er is not an ISO-639 code. I've listed this in Wikipedia:Requested moves. --Hello World! 12:13, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hockey stats

I have some questions about the stats formatting.

  1. Why are ties a column in post-season play? There are no ties, right? In Finland, are there ties in playoff games? I know that in international play you can tie, though, right?
  2. Also, I know NHL.com does not put SOL and OTL in the T column, but how are we planning to deal with this on Wikipedia? It makes more sense to put them in the T column and have a sidenote that T represents that, but then old stats might have to be edited... Where do OTL from previous NHL seasons go in the stats? Also, the AHL puts OTL into the regular losses column. I think we should make a decision about this. It is awkward to have 20 games played, 15 wins and 1 loss (random numbers) and no ties. Obviously to us 4 OTL but to readers, they think, that information is not right. You know? If we need to add an OTL or SOL column or something, we should do that, but come up with the standard. Tell me what you think.
  3. Also, I know GAA in the SM-liiga is generated differently. I added some of the EHL stats for Antero Niittymäki and saw some GAA which seemed strange to me, but upon examination of the SM-liiga site, I saw they calculate GAA by time played (ie he was pulled in one game, and so he has 1 GP and 1.something GAA, with 1 goal let in)... Should this be explained somewhere???

Hazelorb 20:31, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Hi!

1. I have no idea. I've copied the stat tables straight from the Wikiproject pages. They're not exactly perfect, but I've gone with them for lack of anything better. Also, nhl.com has a ties column in post-season play for goaltenders. The only explanation I can think of is that if a game ends tied in regulation, they might list it as a tie. But that's just a guess. The Finnish league doesn't allow ties in playoff games, nor do international playoffs, at least at the world champs. The IIHF World Championships did away with ties altogether, and next year in Latvia all games are going to overtime and shootout.

2. OTL includes SOL, and should have a column of its own now that the NHL no longer has ties. You're right, I hadn't thought about that yet. I think it would be reasonable to go with the nhl.com format of listing only W-L-T, since they're not going to be more specific. If you want to add another column or two, I suppose it's feasible to add both an OTL and SOL column after W-L-T, and I don't think it requires any additional explanations.

3. I was under the impression that's how GAA is generated in North America, too. Goals Against Average seems to think so. But I don't really know.

Elrith 13:07, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

"Goals-Against Average: Multiply goals allowed (GA) by 60 and divide by minutes played (MIN)." [2] Never knew that. I always assumed it was by game. Guess I never saw stats for a goalie who only played one game and was pulled before.

The only concern I have about adding another column is 1) adjusting all the other stats and 2) the width of the table might be really large for some browsers (ie the one I am on now, in my high school, barely fits the table as is). I do not know why NHL.com is so stupid lol. We should propose these changes to the people who run project ice hockey, though - though last time I commented on something no one responded. Who knows. Anyways... Philly is on top of the NHL right now, though, thanks to our favorite Finnish goaltender!

Hazelorb 15:06, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

  • It is _practically_ by game, but with pulled goalies and so on the numbers can get a bit funny.

I don't think it'll be necessary to adjust past stats, but the fact that past stats are only in W-L-T makes me not want to bother with current stats, either. I think if you want to add the new columns, just start recording data that way for the current season and leave the previous ones as they are, unless you can find data for them, too. I don't think one more column will make the tables too big. The page is, however, getting a bit long, but I don't know whether there's anything there that should be deleted. And as for the Wikiproject, hey, this is Wikipedia, and no-one runs anything here. If you can make a better table, just do it.

Overall I think you're doing a fantastic job with it. I've seen quite a few of Antero's games (although we've taken to calling him Frank now), and he's been great. The Flyers deserve the top spot with Ottawa's ongoing nosedive. The Finnish Olympic lineup is a goaltender short with Kiprusoff calling off, and if Frank doesn't make it, it'll be a crime.

I'll try to get Timo Pärssinen's page done so we can get that ugly red link off the succession box.

Elrith 15:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Yea, I figured it would be a lot of work for nothing unless it was redoing everything, and I am lazy... There's a game tonight, in a few minutes. The page is getting long, I tried to start getting rid of things which are not necessary for the reader to grasp the concept (like specific scores or something like that). I am also considering making a section for "NHL firsts" to get rid of a lot of the commentary, but we will see. The references add quite a bit to the page as well, but this is an encyclopedia. It is important that a person be able to see where the information comes from without a scavenger hunt. I think it is funny how you actually call him Frank. My mom says that now she wants to call him Steve (after Steve Miller, the gangster of love). ;)

Hazelorb 00:03, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

  • I don't think you need to shorten the page, at least not yet. You're right, it is an encyclopedia, and I think you've done a great job with the page. As for the man himself, the Finnish national team coach confirmed today that they're making their goaltender selections by next week, and with Hannu Toivonen injured, he almost said it's going to be Frank. But they haven't decided yet, so we'll see...

Elrith 19:10, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Right now, Esche's injury report says he is out indefinitely, but Hitchcock says Esche will play next week perhaps. Still no news from Finland on the Olympics, right? Antsu completely deserves to be on the team.

(edit January 13, 2006 10 am ET) The Finland team page cites him as having been called to the team, but does not list a reference and I have not seen it on NHL/Flyers sites. Last night was so sad... Antsu was the one keeping the Flyers in the game and then the Flyers defense decided not to play and most of Detroit's goals were two on one, impossible saves for a goalie. He really deserved a win and not another 6 goals on his GAA.

Hazelorb 01:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Yeah, I saw the game. It was lousy how the team let him down in the defensive zone. I was sorry they had to finish the road trip that way, since it was a great trip. We're also getting Flyers-Avs on Saturday, and we hope it goes better.

Frank is definitely on the Olympic team; the head coach confirmed it for the Finnish media today. Finnish government news agency report here. There shouldn't have been any way it could have gone differently, but with our national team, you can never tell...

Elrith 16:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Player Names

In seeing your edits, I suggest you check out Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Player pages format on the discussion of accents and other things in player names. Croat Canuck 03:00, 15 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Don't sweat it

Don't let them get you down. Just keep editing and making people's names spelled right. Hazelorb 03:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Thanks. I guess I haven't really run into such a full-blown case of "the Internet is American" before. It's just weird. I'm going to stay on Wikibreak for a good while, but when I get back, I'll keep working on hockey pages. It's the Olympics soon, after all. Thanks again for the support! Elrith 04:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Apology

I apologize if any of my actions on the language discussion was part of the reason that caused you to break away from Wiki-hockey, and although we hold different viewpoints on that particular matter, I hope you can continue to do strong edits on hockey articles. Croat Canuck 23:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Not at all; it's the views of some of the other participants which I find incomprehensible. The reason I walked away is that I think I've spent enough years on the Internet to recognize when people aren't going to respond to an opinion different from theirs. I hope I didn't offend anyone myself. Thanks for your message! Elrith 02:22, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia ice hockey

After giving it some time, I decided not to participate in any of the Wikipedia ice hockey pages until the dispute about "foreign" letters and diacritics is resolved in some way. I'm thoroughly offended by the way the discussion was started and the direction and attitude it has taken, and as long as there is a prospect of getting into an edit war over spelling a player's name the way they spell it themselves, I'm going to stay away from the whole issue.

Simply put, I myself didn't know that Jaromir Jagr's name is properly spelt Jaromír Jágr. My reaction to seeing it spelt with diacritics was "Wow, I didn't know that." The Wikiproject:Ice Hockey discussion was started by a user whose reaction was: "All these foreign accents are really starting to piss me off." His point of view is supported by people who think that Wikipedia needs to spell European proper names the way North American publications spell them, not the way the European people in question spell them themselves. To me, living in Europe, this is pure chauvinism and a total lack of respect for other nationalities and languages. Because the dominant attitude in the discussion seems to be condescending and bigoted, I'm simply not going to make any more ice hockey edits until some kind of consensus exists, except for minor status and stat updates where I'm unlikely to insult someone by adding something "foreign" to Wikipedia. Elrith 09:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Olympics

Antero Niittymäki is going to start! [3] So excited. This is gonna be like when the Finnish team made it to the finals in the 2004 World Cup of Hockey, but even better. I can't help cheering for Antsu....

In the meantime, Antsu's page has been moved, and it is kind of funny - references that are titled as Niittymäki have been changed. So he is referencing those sources wrong... Dunno about that. I am just sad it came to this for them.

Hazelorb 18:54, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Ah well. I've removed all ice hockey pages from my watchlist, because I just can't be bothered. If they want to go about things this stupidly, I'm not interested enough to try to challenge it. I have to say I love how their "consensus and convention" means one guy shows up and says they're now doing things this way (the most recent entry). It's astonishing how stupid people can be. But like I said, I don't have the time or energy to try to convince someone who gets pissed off if someone spells Thomas Pöck with an umlaut.
As for the Olympics, well, I'm just worried that with the amount of playing Frank has had to do for Philly he won't exactly be fresh for the Olympics. I hope he does well, although I can't say I have much faith in Team Finland... They'll spend so much time in the penalty box that any netminder can look forward to around 20 minutes of PK time each game. Poor Frank. But I'm rooting for him! Elrith 20:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Olympics

How are you liking the Olympics? TWO SHUTOUTS for Antsu! Three for Team Finland! In the meantime someone put all the ä's back on his page (couldn't help cracking up when I saw that...- it wasn't me) but it was promptly reverted, of course. I think it is just so comforting, after all of this, to see his jersey with his name spelled right when I turn on the TV. Now how hard would that be for the NHL? Hazelorb 01:32, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi! Oh, just fine; Switzerland is doing great! =) I can't believe Team Canada played so badly against Finland; the way Team USA is doing, I'm sure Finland will beat them at the quarterfinals, and will probably face Russia at the semis. I can't quite believe it, but I think we have to start talking medals for Frank... He's been good, but holy crap, Teemu's on FIRE.
By the way, there's a discussion at the Village Pump on the ä/ö/å thing, and it's become obvious that there is no consensus on how to use diacritics and national letters, apart from the one old vote. I said that until there's a new vote or something, I'm going to do all the hockey edits I want, with the f*cking ä and ö if I want to. Ha! Elrith 04:36, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I saw you put back in the ä and got excited and read the discussion. There is definitely no consensus, AND there are two people who have read the Antero page and said it needs to have the ä in it. That is just two that bothered to comment! Can we move the page back to Antero Niittymäki yet?

I am watching the FIN/RUS game right now. Of course Finland is winning. Finland beat the US at the WCH 2004, no reason why they wouldn't beat them again. I feel bad for my national team but what can you do but root for the best goalie? ;) Canada WAS horrible. Shut out twice!! FINLAND JUST GOT ANOTHER GOAL. Sorry. This whole typing/watching thing never works quite too well...

Hazelorb 21:11, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh boy. Gold medal game against Sweden. I can't believe it, and neither can 5 million other people... Seeing how Team Finland has been doing worse and worse over the years, I don't think anyone here can quite believe that we're headed into the finals. And against Sweden. This is amazing! And Frank is brilliant. Dare I say it? Gold! For the first time ever! Although even silver is great. It's been unbelievable watching Teemu, Saku and Jere at the top of their game again, and even Ville Peltonen. It's like the 1995 World Champs all over again; I remember that like it was yesterday now that I'm watching this stuff. Peltonen scored a hat trick against Sweden in the 1995 World Champs finals; the first line, Peltonen-Koivu-Lehtinen, was the tournament all-stars line. I wish they'd start with those guys on the ice Sunday, just to mess with the Swedes...
I'm loving these Olympics.
Oh, I moved the Niittymäki page. This really is the way I should have gone about the whole thing from the get-go, but I was too distracted trying to connect with a person who gets angry when someone writes Thomas Pöck. Some gaps just can't be bridged. Elrith 03:46, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Compliment

As a huge fan of Finland hockey, it's nice to see someone contribute so much to the entries. :) Though I've gone through and added to Lauri Tukonen's entry (possibly to the point of OVER-thorough), it was nice to see that someone created one - he's my favorite player! Saradanger 08:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! And congratulations for some nice work on Lauri's article. I went and corrected the team names; although a lot of web sites list them that way, Finnish teams just use the name, not their name and their location; i.e. Ahmat, not Ahmat Hyvinkää. I know that hockeydb.com does this, and it leads to silly situations, for example their "TPS Turku", which is like saying the Toronto Toronto Maple Leafs. Similarly, although Blues is often called "Espoon Blues" in Finland, it's listed on tables and referred to simply as Blues (e.g. the SM-liiga website).
Sorry for the lecture. =) Thanks again for the compliment; it's nice to get positive feedback on Wikipedia for a change! Elrith 03:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oops

Sorry about reverting your changes... that guy who keeps changing the pics around and showing canada first bugs me! WookMuff 03:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English spelling

Just because you don't like the English spelling doesn't mean that it is vandalism. Also, if you know anything about wikipedia, when there is a disagreement, the original author's version is held until the dispute is solved. See, just so you know, there was a consensus reached for hockey player names. There were a few people (a minority) who didn't like the consensus, so they ignored it. You can't go around forcing your POV and then calling the other POV vandalism. yesterday, i reverted most of your edits because your edits didn't improve the articles and were useless edits. Your edits moved away from the original author's version that was not incorrect. There was nothing wrong with the article before you edited it. I reverted today because you had the gull to call my edits that restored to the orginal version "vandalism". I am sorry that the English language removes those characters, but that isn't my fault. The vast majority of English publications do not use foreign characters. Only a small percentage include them. Wikipedia follows the most common way of doing things and makes note of the other ways (according to the MoS, this is the way it should work). Masterhatch 16:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

You have what I would call a unique viewpoint in this. The way I saw the discussions, there is a small minority, namely you and your friends, who want to delete the letters ä, ö and å from Wikipedia ice hockey articles. If you call putting up a proposal, having it opposed and then deciding it's what you're going to do anyway consensus, then I seriously question you have any grasp of the English language at all. You might note that no-one on Wikipedia had any problem with Teemu Selänne's name being spelled with an ä before you and your friends decided to purge Wikipedia of "foreign letters". You and your friends are the ones who are trying to change Wikipedia, and you do not have the support of any kind of consensus.
Secondly, Teemu Selänne's name is spelled Teemu Selänne. His name is no more Teemu Selanne than it is Bob Geldof or Rob Niedermayer. There are rules that govern translating from Finnish to English, and they specifically state that you are not allowed to change the spelling of personal names between Finnish and English. The fact that you can quote North American publications that misspell his name doesn't mean that they're not misspelling it. Under your standards, if I could find enough English-language books that say Governor Schwarzenegger is a six-foot reptile in disguise, I should start fighting to get the article changed to call him a reptile. If you think correcting spelling is forcing POV, then I can't possibly understand what you think NPOV means. I think any article that misspells names does, in fact, have something wrong with it.
Since I don't believe for a minute that you're going to accept any of my arguments, I'll have to quote one of your fellow anti-foreign crusaders: If you think it's vandalism, then report me. Elrith 09:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia works by using popular media and reliable sources. Almost every single hockey source out there in the English speaking world drops the foreign characters. Until that changes, i see no reason why wikipedia should go against the main stream usage. Wikipedia isn't here to "correct" things, but to show things how they are in modern, everyday English.
"Under your standards, if I could find enough English-language books that say Governor Schwarzenegger is a six-foot reptile in disguise, I should start fighting to get the article changed to call him a reptile." If enough reliable sources said that, then the article about him should reflect that.
"If you think it's vandalism, then report me." you are the one that called my edits "rvv" Masterhatch 02:42, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
So basically you think that if enough media sources make a mistake, Wikipedia has to duplicate that mistake? It's a plain fact of the Finnish language and of Finnish-English translation that you cannot change Selänne to Selanne. Ä and A are different letters; Selanne is just as much a misspelling of Selänne as Niedermayer would be. By your standards, if I found enough articles that call Brett Hull Brett Hall, I should change every mention of Brett Hull to Brett Hall and start a fight on Wikiproject:Ice Hockey to stop anyone from ever writing Brett Hall. It wouldn't matter that the man's name is Brett Hull, because obviously facts are secondary.
The plain fact of the matter is that the mainstream media in all countries is lazy and often incompetent. They will consistently misstate facts and figures. Basically, by your standards it would be impossible to correct them on Wikipedia, even if you had professional sources that claimed otherwise. Is this really your approach to Wikipedia? And don't you see a problem with it?
Overall, I just can't understand where you people are coming from on this issue. No-one had any problem with diacritics or Finnish/Scandinavian letters until ccwaters brought them up on Wikiproject:Ice Hockey. I can't for the life of me understand why two dots over the letter a make all of you so angry that you're willing to start edit wars over it. Elrith 05:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
It wasn't me that brought this on. I just became the most vocal at the same point as you. ccwaters 13:59, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Simple: in english, those two dots don't exist. And i ask you the same question: "I can't for the life of me understand why two dots over the letter a make all of you so angry that you're willing to start edit wars over it." Masterhatch 05:58, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I like how you've completely ignored my questions. The reason I'm involved in this at all is because there was nothing wrong with the English Wikipedia pages on Finnish hockey players until you and three other people started vandalizing them. It's difficult for me to understand where you get your sudden bias against "foreign letters" or whatever you want to call them, or the fantastically high-handed and arrogant way you go about this thing.
However, since you're obviously not interested in actually discussing this matter any more than your fellow crusaders, I'm done here. If you have any more "witty" rejoinders, feel free to place them below. Elrith 06:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
As i recall, until you and your "friends" came along, those "foreign characters" were rare in hockey articles and definately weren't on the player lists for the teams. It baffles me how you keep calling the English spelling a misspelling when in English, we don't have those characters. The vast majority of publications both on the internet and on real paper do not include foreign characters. Why? because they are not part of the English alphabet. Publishers have the ability to add those characters to their publications, but they don't. Me and my "crusaders" cite numerous publications for our edits while you just keep saying "misspelt". And it is not a "sudden" bias, nor is it a "bias" towards foreign characters; I am just interested in the correct, and most common, English spelling. Masterhatch 06:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
You're still totally ignoring everything I write. If you really are baffled as to why I call the "English spelling" a misspelling, then I suggest you work on reading comprehension because I've explained it twice on this page alone. I've also questioned the basis of your "English alphabet" argument several times, and you've refused to answer. If you're going to keep repeating the same things over and over again and ignore what I say, then why are you wasting your time typing here? Once again, I don't see much prospect of any kind of worthwhile conversation with you or your co-partisans because you simply refuse to address any arguments posed against you. Elrith 06:37, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I am not ignoring what you are writing. I am saying that it isn't misspelt in English! it is you who is ignoring the simple fact that it isn't misspelt in English. Virtually every publication in English regarding hockey will agree with me. I haven't seen any sources to back up your stance. Masterhatch 14:39, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
You are still confusing the English language with North American publications. See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Anglo-American focus. I wish I'd come across that before, as it's very much what I've been trying to say all along. This isn't a North American Wikipedia, and Finnish ice hockey players are Finns, not North Americans, so your "English" publications don't matter. I'm off for a Wikibreak, so I won't be continuing this discussion for a while now. Happy editing! Elrith 14:36, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
If you read that a little closer, you will note that it is making a suggestion, not a rule. Anyways, it still doesn't fit this situation. What i mean is that it is suggesting view points from other cultures, not the inclusion of nonEnglish characters. Also, you keep saying that all these English publications are misspelling the names and you are saying that you are right. So, let me get this straight, you say that thousands upon thousands of publishers are wrong and you are right. That sounds awfully arogant to me. Masterhatch 23:15, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Very typical, though, because while he's waving the nationalist card, he never quite gets around to reconciling that we're not fiddling with the spelling in the articles of any European teams, nor gets around to sourcing any English-language links supporting his spelling, nor gets around to explaining why it's alright for the Finnish Wikipedia to ignore English spelling of English proper names, nor dares to admit that the Finnish diacriticals aren't in use in England, Australia or India either (based on fifteen minutes perusal of links from the national Googles). It's time we stopped debating him over his obsession. Wikipedia has rules for dealing with vindictive serial vandals. RGTraynor 18:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] vandalism

Just to clear up the edit about The Hills Have eyes (2006 film), what happened was some person vandalized it adding in sexual words and so on, but the next person reverted them and removed the word "porn" from a quote in which the person actually said it. So, I was not sure what to write as an edit summary and wrote "rv wrong edit". Is there something I should have used instead?

[edit] Bodom

You violated WP:CITE and WP:NPOV. Thus i reverted you on that basis. Your view is already mentioned in the Genre Controversy section, trying to push your view over others is a violation of core policys. Ley Shade 15:26, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Bullshit. I quoted and referenced the band's website, where they refer to themselves as extreme metal. If that isn't good enough for you, then I don't really care. It isn't a violation of WP:NPOV to quote a source. Try actually reading the guidelines you link to before accusing people of violating them. Also, that's no reason to make unexplained reverts. Elrith 15:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English names vs. non-Englsh names for cities

Hello! Right now there is a poll at Talk:Plzeň to decide if the English name should be used or the czech name. You seem like a reasonable guy who has a good handle on the ins and outs of wikipedia. Could you chime your thoughts there? (i am not saying support me, i am just asking you to look at the article) Thanks!!! Masterhatch 02:46, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Now that I've cooled off a bit...

...I'm hoping there's some way we can resolve the issue at Talk:Teemu Selänne over diacritics in names without more WP:ATTACKs. I've provided a couple of examples (very bottom of the section) of what Masterhatch and I are getting at, as I believe they're representative of the current naming policies, even setting aside the admittedly contentious proposed guidelines that were linked at the start of the argument.

I've had my fun shouting at people I've never met, and now I'm ready for it to just end. Let's see if we can work this out. Doogie2K (talk) 21:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I hope you have cooled down a bit, because I have to say that I highly resent your remarks and tone at Talk:Teemu Selänne. I haven't had much fun with this whole debate, and the fact that you have the nerve to accuse me of not having good faith when your own comments have been offensive, attacking and totally non-constructive simply makes me unable to take you seriously. When you grow up a little, maybe I can talk Wikipedia with you. Your conduct on that talk page is at such a level that it's better for both of us if we just don't communicate. Elrith 17:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, that's a bit of a rude answer. But I really am ticked off. To be constructive, what I don't understand is how the ä in Selänne can hurt anyone. It's puzzled me from the very beginning of this debate and I still don't understand it. This is the post by Masterhatch that started this whole debate. I quote: "Those non english accents are driving me nuts." I can't understand this attitude at all, and given that this is how we got started, I have a fairly short fuse about being accused of pushing my personal POV. As near as I can understand any of this, Masterhatch is personally offended by the letter ä. I don't get it. Elrith 17:50, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
See, now, this is why I flew off the handle in the first place: patronizing attitudes like yours that try to imply that we English-speakers are too stupid to spell foreign names correctly. You're not the only one with a short fuse when accused of pushing PoV, especially when you're just trying to follow policy. I can perfectly see why non-English characters would drive Masterhatch nuts in names that are commonly spelled without them in the English-speaking world. Not only is it a WP:NAME violation, but it's also a pain to try to work with it when you only have a standard North American keyboard, which I have to say, most of the English-speaking world has. Technical limitations are beyond nearly everyone's control, and indeed, WP policy (maybe even WP:NAME) says that articles should be written with the masses in mind, not a certain group of editors. Clearly, the masses in most English-speaking countries are more apt to recognize "Selanne" and not "Selänne", given its prevalence in every form of hockey media in existence; I cite hockey media specifically because that's all we've got to represent the English language, in this case. And yes, you can clearly see they're the same name, but if you were to poll 1,000 random people in Anaheim or Denver or Winnipeg, how many of them even know that the ä is there? That's the kind of thing you have to consider when deciding whether to use the non-English characters: are they commonly used/heard of in the English-speaking world? Hell, even Quebec Nordiques lost its diacritic, and I would argue the French names with diacritics are just as prevalent – in Canada, anyway – as without, at least for common names like Montreal and Quebec. Doogie2K (talk) 16:27, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but your idea that I think English speakers are too stupid to spell is entirely your idea. I've never, over this entire debate, said anything of the sort. This kind of thing is exactly what inflames debates and leads to everyone losing their temper.
As for the rest of your argument, Selänne is just as easily recognizable to an English speaker than Selanne. You can't seriously be telling me that when you see the Teemu Selänne page, you can't tell who it's about, but could if it was called Teemu Selanne. So I think this argument is ridiculous. Similarly, the idea that Wikipedia articles have to conform to the level of knowledge of 1,000 random North Americans is totally ludicrous. I'll bet you none of them have ever heard of a Markov algorithm, so under your line of reasoning, that article needs to be deleted. I'm perfectly aware that most North American hockey publications don't know or care that his name is spelled Selänne instead of Selanne. Finnish publications always spell Simon Gagné's name Gagne, and omit the diacritics from Czech names. That's laziness and ignorance as well. I'd never make an argument on Finnish Wikipedia that the diacritics need to be removed because Finnish hockey publications omit them.
However, I'm going back on my Wikibreak; this debate still isn't going anywhere, and your antagonistic attitude leads me to believe this particular discussion isn't going anywhere, either. I've posted something of a closing statement on Talk:Teemu Selänne; if you want to remove diacritics and Finnish/Scandinavian letters from Wikipedia, you want to change Wikipedia, and that is best handled through the Wikipedia channels for creating a policy, instead of edit wars and random votes on moving single articles. I hope you and "your side", like Masterhatch says, take this issue there and try to form a Wikipedia-wide consensus. If Wikipedia as a whole comes around to not using Finnish letters, then I'll accept Teemu Selanne. Until then, I'll keep using them and reverting changes that remove them as often as I can be bothered.
To end on a positive note: thank you for making an effort to resolve this dispute by talking here. I hope we can talk about this and reach some kind of conclusion over a Wikipedia-wide policy that would end this debate. I hope you drop me a note if someone starts a policy proposal over this, and we can discuss it there. Elrith 16:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I have to laugh at your blatant stretching of my logic into a straw man about the Markov algorithm. Anyway, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, and I've already apologized for getting pissy. Others started this edit war long ago by moving pages without discussion, adding these special characters. Without proper consensus, I believe the pages should be put back where they were, and usually, that's without special characters, and usually, that's where they should stay, because of how the average English speaker knows the name. As I said, the names are still recognizable, but it's obviously not representative of how the average English speaker would use them, which, I believe, is how we have to work. If you feel it's lazy or shortsighted, that's fine, but I don't see how that can really be changed. It's not like we're completely disregarding the native spelling and pronunciation -- I like the idea of adding IPA pronunciation guides to non-English names -- we're simply listing by the best-known form of the name in English. Again, see Quebec Nordiques and Marian Gaborik, which were both settled by consensus (though the Nords one was kinda thin).
Enjoy your Wikibreak, and I hope we can find a way to settle this as a community at a later date. Doogie2K (talk) 06:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Laugh all you want; your original argument is still ridiculous. You can't possibly mean that Wikipedia needs to be dumbed down to the level of knowledge of a hypothetical "average" reader. And your account of how this edit war started is simply untrue. I've given you a reference to when this was first brought up. I still have to say that I very strongly feel that your attitude is completely unconstructive and I object to your tone on Talk:Teemu Selänne and here, especially your rudeness and exaggerations of things I've said, most blatantly your claim that I think "English speakers are too stupid to spell", and your total refusal to assume either good faith or even basic intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you. But as I said, I'm off on a Wikibreak, and I hope I won't be returning to this any time soon. Elrith 11:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, so much for the Wikibreak. Please comment on my policy proposal, to which I've linked below! Elrith 14:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Finnish letters and proper names

For anyone's information who comes to this page on the topic of Finnish letters and proper names, I've created a policy proposal dealing with Finnish proper names at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Finnish). Elrith 14:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

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