Talk:Elizabeth Charlotte, Princess Palatine

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"...she became known as the First Lady of the Kingdom" Is this good history? Or an Americanization of her position? And do we really mean "costumes" instead of "customs"? --Wetman 29 June 2005 18:24 (UTC)

This is quite right. I believe the user who wrote that meant to say "customs". As for First Lady, I don't know who wrote that. What's true is that when her son became regent her position in France increased a lot. She had sort of fallen out of favor at the court of Versailles. Louis XIV did not talk to her anymore, she was not in the inner circle of the king anymore, and so courtiers considered her sort of fallen from rank. But when her son became regent she found herself at the center of all attentions again. A comeback in the limelight in her old age... although she had no influence on her son's policies. She writes about that unexpected comeback in her letters, with a lot of humour and irony. If I remember correctly, during the Regency the regent paid her visit everyday. She was living in Paris, but I can't remember where. Whether she received an informal title or not, I don't know. Première Dame du Royaume? I don't know if she was ever called that way during the Regency, although this is not totally impossible. Before the Regency, she was known as "Madame", become she was the wife of "Monsieur", the brother of the king. In Louis XIV's days, a courtier asking another courtier: "Savez-vous comment se porte Madame?" would have been specifically understood as inquiring about the Princess Palatine's health. During the Regency, I don't know if she was still called Madame. Hardouin 2 July 2005 20:17 (UTC)

Why not just put most of that right into the article? Much more evocative and accurate a representation of her position. How does does Saint-Simon style her? Was she still simply "Madame" as a widow? We may follow his usage and never err. --Wetman

No one else was going to, so I deleted this. Première Dame de France: that would be the title. A fantasy. --Wetman 05:13, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] titles

A brief comment: the duchy of Montpensier by no means passed to Liselotte by inheritance. This should be investigated. Her husband Monsieur was La Grande Mademoiselle's heir (one of them).

As for the other discussion thread, I would only add that Madame did signify roughly First Lady of the kingdom, but implied that this was one step down from the Queen. After 1682 the Queen was dead, and the Dauphine became the primary woman at court. After 1690 she too was dead and so Madame was indeed the first lady at the court in terms of rank, until 1697 when the Duchesse de Bourgogne arrived.

Agreed that Elisabeth Charlotte did not inherit the dukedom or revenues of the duchy of Montpensier, but the article's text claims, rather, that she was the heiress of the duchesse de Montpensier. But I don't see how that is possible either, as she was only very distantly related to La Grande Mademoiselle, who had several younger half-sisters. It is, of course, possible that the revenues of Liselotte's household as a dowager were paid out of her late husband's inheritance from La Grande Mademoiselle, but that would have been an administrative detail hardly worth noting.

I disagree that the title "Madame" implied first lady of the court in any sense except, now and then, coincidentally. In fact, this Madame never enjoyed that position. The title simply meant "wife of the King's eldest brother". True, she should have ranked as la première dame between 1690 and 1697, but did not becaue the King's morganatic wife, madame de Maintenon, held that position de facto. In fact, IIRC, Madame was so offended by the elevation of "a former governess" to the rank of France's first lady that she dared refuse La Maintenon's offer of an armchair when she was obliged to pay her a visit, since in the proper scheme of things Mme de Maintenon should not have even been allowed to sit in the presence of Madame at all!

Finally, the title "Princess Palatine", while commonly accorded in France to Elisabeth Charlotte during her betrothal was not used in that form, and was not used after her marriage. The reason is quite simple: "The Princess Palatine" was, in France, the title accorded to Anna Gonzaga (1616-84, of the French Nevers branch of the Dukes of Mantua), wife of Liselotte's uncle, the Prince Palatine Edward. This aunt, a famous Parisian hostess, conceived and negotiated Liselotte's 1671 marriage to Monsieur and was the couple's close friend in France umtil her death. Usually, therefore, prior to her marriage Liselotte was referred to in France as "the Princess Palatine Elisabeth Charlotte", and after marriage as "Madame" (the style, once obtained, was retained for life, like the title Princess Royal in Britain; even if a new king acceded to the throne, his sister-in-law could not become Madame until the previous one died, although during the lifetime of Liselotte, no one else ever qualified for her style). Lethiere 20:47, 22 September 2006 (UTC)