Talk:Elfen Lied/Archive 1

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Contents

Episode list

Hello. Does anybody own the DVDs and know what ADV's official titles for the episodes are? I made the english episode titles correspond with tv.com's listing (here) but I see somebody has reverted to the old titles. I think it would be most accurate to list the titles as they appear on the dvd, rathing than from some website's that may just be fansubber's translations of the japanese or german. - Phorque 05:34, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Unanswered Questions

At the conclusion of Elfen Lied, there are a number of unanswered aspects about the story:

  1. What are the origins and purpose of the Diclonius?
  2. Was Lucy the first Diclonius? Several characters refer to Lucy as the queen, but whether or not this is true, and what implications it has for the early history of the Diclonius are left obscure.
  3. Why do the president of the secret organization and his son both have horns on their head?
Secret organization? Can we give it a name?

Hi, Phorque here. Firstly: not all of these are unanswered. Make sure you've read the manga AND watched the anime before labling these as loose ends in the plot. There's also the chance you may have misunderstood. I myself have watched the anime, but only read up to chapter 19 of the manga. I don't even know if loose ends in the plot have a place in the article, at least, not as an entire section unto themselves.

Here are some things I do know:

  1. The diclonius are a "genetic defect" of sorts (some kind of next step in evolution) that usually dies out after one generation. This defect, however, can be passed on like a virus to affect somebody else's offspring (for example: Director Kurama).
  2. Lucy is the first diclonius with the ability to reproduce, thus making her "their queen" (meaning she could populate the earth with reproduction capable diclonius).
  3. The president and his son (i think) somehow infected themselves with the Diclonius virus in order to become the "kings" of the diclonius or something to that effect.

I, SwordKirby537, have not read the complete manga but I have heard that from people who have read it a few answers to those questions. The manga continues quite aways past where the anime ends, thus expanding on the story quite a bit. NOTE: Please forgive me if my answers are off, since I have never read it myself and don't have anyway of proving these statements, other than that I have heard them multiple times from those who have completed the manga. If any of these answers are off, then please, do correct them.

  1. I have heard that the Diclonius came to be about 1000 years ago when aliens did experiments or bred with humans (can't remember which). I have infact read in the manga that Kurama states that "Diclonius are a new species chosen by God", which implies that thier purpose is, infact, to replace humans.
  2. Lucy is not the first Diclonius, but I think she is the first one that can reproduce, like Phorque said.
  3. I think that the Director and his son have horns as a genetic triat found in their family's bloodline that dates back to some time during the samurai era. I am unaware of why their family has this trait and how its connected to traditional Diclonius.
Hi Phorque here. I have read up to chapter 40 of the manga and discovered that the Director and his son are both from a long line of Diclonius whose potency has been watered down over generations by interbreeding with humans. The director's son explains this before he is beheaded by Lucy (this is omitted in the anime). The manga seems to explain everything but we'll need some japanese-speaking person to explain it all to us as only 40 chapters have been scanlated into english. -Phorque 18:05, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

How is nobody mentioning the ending? The symbolism of the broken clock that they keep showing throughout, starting up again, and the music box stopping. Also, the shadow at the doorway (Lucy?) AshTM 07:37, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I can answer about diclonius one they are not a different species from humans they are humans just like us just slightly different two neither god nor aliens had nothing to do with them it was all nature. Kuramas little chosen by god quote is merely xenophobia acting not the facts. Lucy in the manga said to kakuzawa after she killed him that he was delusional and living in a self fabricated fantasy world that diclonius are not a different species they are humans only born with horns and a unique power like x mens mutants in a way most people due to xenophobia cannot accept them as human when they are human same with diclonius. That word diclonius was probably invented by kakuzawa in order to segregate them form there fellow man. The institutions and the cruel treatment was probably kakuzawas way of conditioning them as killing machines and so they have no hope of existing together with there fellow man.

Images

We don't really need three images for this article. I think just a description is fine, so we should keep just one.

— Kieff | Talk 07:28, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

Hi Do we have a burning need not to have three images? They don't float down past the text, and they all illustrate something different. I wanted to show that Nyuu/Lucy is rendered differently when a different personality is dominant, and what the vectors look like. I think all three of the pictures add something. --grendel|khan 09:51, 2004 Dec 25 (UTC)
Well, guess not. Let them there then. I fixed the images, btw. — Kieff | Talk
I must agree that the article is a bit cluttered with images, several of which really aren't necessary to illustrate any points in the article. At the very least, I think someone should consider alternating which sides the images appear on, so they're not just in a huge column. --InShaneee 20:52, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
You can probably just create one image and combine the 3 faces together to show all 3 in one, eliminating the clutter and retaining what you want from them. you can photoshop them in like 5 minutes, I'll do it soon.Tik 16:20, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


Lyrics

The lyric to the opening theme song seems to be not original. [1] ← seems to indicate that the lyrics come from a different source. Also, the first part: "Os iusti meditabitur sapientiam, Et lingua eius loquetur indicium" seems to be Psalm 37:30 in Latin after some Google searching. Would be nice if someone could help identify where the lyric comes from (or maybe it's mentioned on the OST CD album credits). In an earlier edit, a reference to "Beatus Vir" was erased, but I'm not sure why. --69.214.227.51 09:36, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Update: apparently this guy seems to know much more what he's talking about → [2]
Update 2 by 69.214.227.51 19:06, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC): The original soundtrack album booklet states that Lilium was made just for the album (lyric and melody), which makes the one posting at the first link I gave a liar.
Update by PS4FA: The various pieces from which the lyrics are drawn are apparently all to be found on the album 'Chant' by the monks of the Santo Domingo de Silos Monastery.
That Cebuano 'translation' really does not look like a translation at all. AFAICT, those are lyrics (with a few modifications) to a song titled "original sigbin". See http://www.juniorkilat.com/music/lyrics/sigbin.htm. While I am not fluent in Latin and cannot make any comments on the validity of the cebuano words as a translation of the Latin text, I am fairly fluent in both English and Cebuano and the Cebuano words do not match the English words at all. --Deranged Coder 22:47:23, 2005-08-02 (UTC)

Is it even legal to post the entire lyrics here? These songs are copyrighted and so are their lyrics. --129.97.84.62 20:42, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

It might be. Fair use is a tricky thing. --maru (talk) contribs 22:06, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Since they copied these psalms, I think it's okay. They can hardly have any claims to those now, can they? On the other hand, if we were to include the music, we'd probably not be in the clear. Shinobu 07:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Elfen Lied (revision)

I moved this from my talk page, where Sir Louis made a comment about my removal of his comments.

I added a few other valid points to the sub-topics line of this definition, state what you feel was not objective about it. (?)
Objectivity is not the issue, but presenting one opinion as fact and no contrary opinions, or needlessly noting subjective appreciations. A copy of the paragraphs you modified, with bold indicating your changes/additions that I find objectionable:
"Elfen Lied is unpleasant to watch. The moral, if there is one - deals with human evolution, which doesn't offer much room for character building, with the constant merry go round of shallow and senseless moments, and tragedy, brutality and resolve. The main drive of the dicloniuses is the propagation of their superior traits through the destruction of the human race. This homicidal drive manifests around the 3rd year of the diclonius's life. It seems that dicloniuses do not consider normal Homo sapiens "human", and most of the time they show a complete lack of empathy towards non-mutants.
The story also deals with the issues of psychological trauma and repressed memories, as well as moral insanity (psychopathy) as a result of absent unconditional, parental love."
"Is unpleasant to watch", I'm sure you see this, is completely subjective. I don't find it pleasant to see little girls being torn apart, even if they're just animated characters, but I didn't Elfen Lied unpleasant (except in the same sense I found it "unpleasant" to watch Schindler's List, for example — also full of senseless killing). I see you've reverted my revert and inserted "can". Of course, objectively, anything "can be unpleasant to watch". But this is not the place for subjective appreciation, and the modal verb only barely masks the POV (it works as a weasel word).
Then also, "the moral - if there is one" makes it obvious that you don't think there's one, and that you think there should be a (constructive) morale. I'm wondering what your views are about human evolution, but I won't open that can of worms here.
Likewise, if you believe character building is lacking, state a source or discuss criticism here in this talk page with at least a few viewers. Compare Elfen Lied's character development with that of other anime/manga, with other similar stories, etc.
The "constant merry go round of..." is plainly personal POV and, if I may say so, reads like a movie trailer ad.
PS I just saw you changed that. Reads better, but go on.
Then, what is "moral insanity"? Does parental love have to be present and unconditional for people not to turn into psychopaths? And how does that follow from the series? If character building is so lacking, how can you analyze the behavior of characters and not only diagnose a mental disorder but also its cause? Again, I'd suggest to get some knowledgeable viewers and discuss the issue here.
Opinionated criticism can be found elsewhere. You are free to look for reviews and link to them from the External links section. You can even write a review yourself.
I'm reverting the article again. If you don't agree, I suggest requesting comments from other users before doing anything else. I understand you're new to WP and hope you don't take offense from my comments and opinions. That's what discussion pages are for.
It's OK to do multiple edits. You can sign your posts here using four tildes ~~~~. --Pablo D. Flores 10:54, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
That was indeed opinionated, instead of making another revision, as this is my first go at highly interpretive definitions, a few comments: The series does in fact touch on the link between dsy-social psychopathy and parental influences, (note Nyu/Lucy's relationship to Kouta, Mariko and Nana's relationship to Kurama and their homicidal tendencies evaporating in his presence). This implies a historical - or at least predominantly historically (mistakenly attributed to ingrained instinct) rooted cause for their hatred of humans. Note that in episode 13, it is revealed that Lucy did in fact possess the ability to introspect and empathize all along - in other words, have a conscience.
As for "is unpleasant to watch". Well, this is of course, technically, subjective, but the nauseating, constant roller-coaster of physical and psychological violence, tearful resolve, and odd quiet moments of reason and conversation between the characters deserves to be touched on as well. Done once, this is digestible, but it is constant throughout the series, and is genuinely nauseating. This is more of an observation about story direction and plot writing, rather than the actual themes and story themselves. It is very good Sci-Fi otherwise.
So, unless you feel I am somehow incorrect about any of this for inclusion into a definition, then I'd suggest having you write the revision making light of these things, or I can have a more dedicated go at it again.
PS: As a side note, something of a logical error, why did they arm their guards with submachine guns instead of high-powered assault rifles (seen in one scene making short work of a dyclonius), surely they were aware low-powered pistol cartridges were totally ineffective against them from tests? Also, in later episodes guards are seen fruitlessly shooting at them again. --Louis
I highly recommend reading NPOV as this should clear up where Pablo-Flores is coming from. In fact, the first paragraph in the sub-topics section of the article is bordering on speculative, and could possibly be flagged as not being of a NPOV. Observations, such as your comment about the elements of the show being nauseating are very subjective, and subjective material does not make a good encyclopedia article. If you read a lot of reviews of this show on the web, you'll find that people are very divided in terms of their opinion of this show. The majority of opinions is that it is brilliant and one of the (if not the) best anime to have debuted in 2004. Once again, that last statement I made is subjective and should not be included in the article. --Js2756 13:41, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
Replying to Louis (backwards)... Well yes, it is obviously a mistake to employ machine guns. Besides assault rifles, I'm wondering why they didn't have electric shock weapons or something like that (unless Lucy can manipulate electromagnetic fields too). The massacre at the very beginning is truly senseless for this reason. Bando is a bit exaggerated too.
I didn't feel the series as a roller coaster. For me it was more like a typical "everything seems fine but something horrible's going on" plot. Again, it was not nauseating for me, in the sense that I never wanted to turn it off and leave. I could go on and on about how my opinion differs from yours, but that's precisely why I didn't like the inclusion of such emotional language in the article. The very first paragraph says the series is full of gore and psychological violence, and then expands on it. I think that's enough. Would you describe World War II as "a bloody struggle that took countless innocent lives", when it is obvious from any accurate historical description that it was precisely that? A story about children being abused, maimed, killed, and turned into test subjects may obviously be nauseating for some, of morbid interest for others, anthropologically interesting for others, and many other things. That's why I'd like to link to plot reviews, if there are any.
You are absolutely right that the series touches on parental influence; in fact, it's a recurring theme. I'd rather describe the facts, though, and avoid psychiatric diagnoses. Unless you're in that field, of course.
Hm. "I'm wondering why they didn't have electric shock weapons or something like that"- but don't electric shock weapons require close range contact, exactly the domain Lucy excelled in? I personally found myself thinking, "Grenades! Grenades and flamethrowers! Her arms can't block being roasted alive or gassed!" --Maru (talk) Contribs 16:46, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Some ideas (to be discussed):
  • The series jumps quickly from moments of relative peace, dialogue and normal interaction between characters, to sequences of gruesome physical violence or psychological torture, sometimes alternating with flashbacks.
  • The diclonius characters show, at times, an ability to empathize with normal humans, though they seem to respect only the lives of certain people. (describe parental relationships)
I have to go now. I'll be back soon... --Pablo D. Flores 14:03, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Great points all around. I understand that this is an encyclopedia article, and the goal should be to describe it as objectively possible, but I definitely propose some kind of sub-section with "Observations" or "Logical Errors" or something of the sort.
It is hailed as being a very good anime probably because of the resolve that underlies the constant shift between sense and senselessness, humanity and inhumanity, which all characters seem to inwardly understand but instead act like monsters with an internal logic that isn't developed by the writers, tasking the viewer to guess what that is. So it draws people in to figure these distorted characters out. The problem is the show is otherwise filled with so many contradictions it loses credibility.
If Lucy isn't carelessly butchering anyone in her path, Nana is bursting into tears every three minutes. Why they do this is supposedly instinct, but it isn't, as evidenced later in the show. Even the clearly twisted Mariko is fully developed psychologically, yet requires being wired with explosives in order to prevent her from killing everyone around her. On top of this we are expected to - which inevitably we do, given the strong human/inhuman contrasts and because the main characters are not (somehow) inwardly the monsters they have made themselves to be through their actions, the viewer becomes frustrated trying to make any sense of it. So are they creators of the series intending to confound and confuse here? Is this simply an exploitation film? Or are the creators just trying to drive anyone insane who tries to understand it? :-) --Louis
As much as I would like to discuss the ins and outs of various topics, Wikipedia just isn't the place to do it. I can't imagine what a lot of articles would be like if everybody put their two cents into the article. Elfen Lied is just one show that has a lot of people divided, but other articles like Neon Genesis Evangelion would, in all likelihood, turn into all out chaos if people were allowed to post what they thought on the show in the article. --Js2756 13:11, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
Louis, honestly I didn't experience any of the confusions you're going through here, as other people have pointed out. Anything as inherently flammable as 'observations', or even worse, 'logical errors' should most likely be kept out of wikipedia. This isn't anything as simple as two plus two equals five. There are plenty of other forums to discuss subjectuve flaws of the show.

--Tarranon 07:05, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


Logical errors are still subjective. Through my experience with humans, I've learned that we operate on a few basic rules heavily influenced by instinct. As you may know, even a basic set of instructions could create unimaginable complexity. Take for example Langton's Ant. We start of random and chaotic until we find a pattern in a single direction. For Diclonii, it's killing people. And just when you think things make sense... well, go to the Langton's Ant page and see what happens when you put three together. As Socrates said, "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." The only time logical errors should be put in an article is if the errors had some sort of major influence, such as death threats to the director (like the ending of Neon Genesis Evangelion). Or maybe in a special category like Trivia. ElijahD 13:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

'Nyuu' or 'Nyu'?

Ok, I changed "Nyuu" to "Nyu", and added more context as discussed here, I hope it's a good, objective, compromise. --Louis

I just edited the above for format. Louis, you can (should) sign your posts using four tildes (~~~~). You write those in the edit window, and they are turned into your username and date-time. The indenting is done using colons (:), one per indent level. See the editing help for details.
I believe the Japanese transcription was にゅう, usually romanized nyuu or nyū (with a long u sound), but it may be simply pedantic to reproduce such nuances given that we're talking about a random, nonsense word. I say let's keep "Nyu" throughout the article, unless someone objects... --Pablo D. Flores 20:17, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Most fansubbers subbed it as "nyuu" so I'd say we should have "nyū" to emphasize the long u. not just "nyu". Phorque 11:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Phorque. There is an actual pronunciation difference between "Nyu" and "Nyū." I suppose the biggest problem with this, however, is having to specify the diacritic. "uu" is a way to specify the long-u sound in regular ASCII text, though "ū" is preferred when diacritics are available such as in Unicode. --Kuronekoyama 18:22, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Lilium

I added some information to the section dealing with the opening song, but for some reason that was removed. Why is that? My information is accurate. Lilium is not released in a full-version, only a short 1 minute 30 second version is officially available. DarkJedi2 on the Rizon IRC network proved how incomplete it is by making several extended versions using parts of the song he obtained in various ways. His mixes are flawless, and prove how much of the song is actually missing from the version we all know. His last version (his 8th release) is 5 minutes and 38 seconds long, and is titled "Lilium ~Extended DarkJedi Edition - Final Mix~", which he describes as a tweaked version of his 7th mix. I believe this is important information. If people want to hear what the near-complete version sounds like, this is the only person who's worth talking to about this. He is often available in #elfenlied on Rizon, he is an op there. Please add this information back in. Thanks. -- (posted by anonymous IP user)

You might try reading the article history for a change:
13:00, August 18, 2005 Pablo-flores m (rv edits by 219.89.91.177 to last version by Voievod (unsourced, non-notable, possibly vanity))
  • Non-notable: it's got quite next to nothing to do with the series. It's like giving an extra section or the "Ride of the Valkyries" as played in Apocalypse now, or elaborating that various uses of parts of Beethoven's 9th Symphony are actually only excerpts from an hour-long symphony.
  • Vanity: For all we know, you could be this "DarkJedi2" person you speak of. Especially with that sweet-talking.
  • Unsourced: Let's face it, saying that some nick on IRC did something is dubious at best. "DarkJedi2" as the name of a source is slightly better than "hansolo42". --towo 09:20, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

It's worth noting that the Elfen Lied OST does indeed include an extended version of Lilium, entitled Lilium ~saint version~. This one is sung by the GRIFFIN Chorus, an all-male ensemble. I'm unable to find a listing for the OST itself, but from what I can piece together from the official Japanese website, it seems to have shipped as a part of the Limited Edition volume 1 in Japan. ADV makes no mention of it on their series page, but several enthusiast groups, most notably Nipponsei, have offered up a digital version of the CD over various P2P networks. -- Halbyrd 09:51, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

This DarkJedi figure didn't try to produce a full version or anything... he just made a remix of several separate versions. Shinobu 07:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Kill or Reproduce?

I was thinking that perhaps, given that we've already established a spoiler warning, we should discuss this series' one unfortunately damning loop-hole. I'm not very good at modifying these articles, so it'd probably be better for someone else to take over it however. Of course, if someone could explain this to me, I'd be delighted as well.

It seems to me, that in the series, Diclonius are supposed to become homicidal around age 3. To indulge, seems like a genetic defect as a result of radical mutation, that they become predisposed to psychopathy. Anyways, here's the point. If they have a natural drive to kill humans, but they need to infect humans to reproduce, then which is it? It seems if they're driven to kill humans constantly, they eliminate their breeding stock, but if they merely spread the virus, I could understand xenophobia being a motivator into containing them, but it certainly wouldn't lead to the "demise of the human race" any more than simply evolving would. The way they speak of it, Diclonius would simply kill everyone they could, but then how do they reproduce? But if they simply reproduce, why would they need to kill so much and be such a threat? As they mature, do they become selective about who they kill and who they infect? Is it on a whim? This seems to be such a large contradiction in the storyline, I'm surprised a bigger issue hasn't been made of it.

They make a big deal in the series both that Diclonius are natural murderers, and that they need to use people to spread, and the points cancel each other out. Should this be made a point of? Or am I simply making a geeky rambling? I apologize if I'm merely cluttering the discussion page with my confusion.


The way I saw it was that the diclonius aren't inherently murderous excepting for the fact that they possess supernatural powers from an age where reason or value of human life isn't naturally inherent. Almost every single diclonius that showed sadistic tendencies was psychologically tortured from a very early age. The researchers, in justification for their inhumane treatment of them, probably put forth the information that the diclonius would kill them, if given the chance. At least, that is my take on it. --Tarranon 06:50, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
The above sounds just OK. Besides, normal human children before a given age are, as everybody knows, rather sadistic in their treatment of animals; they don't recognize them as living, suffering beings, but tend to treat them as toys. I can see the same thing when it comes to the relationship between young dicloniuses and humans. There's also the possibility that dicloniuses are a case of dead-end evolution. Most mutations are lethal, and maybe this is one. They could be ultimately destined to exterminate the human race and then die off due their own competitive success. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:07, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Also note that Lucy is able to reproduce naturally. Hence, it isn't out of the question for her to kill most humans, as she only really needs a male to reproduce (ie. Kouta). Also, Nana does not have a homocidal streak to her. She never actually kills anybody, and is only after Lucy because Kurama wanted her to go after her and because of their history. Nana is a case in point that diclonius are not inherently hostile towards humans. -Js2756 20:46, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I suppose this all makes sense. Still, whether it's a predisposition or not, I can imagine the terrible danger of a child with such lethal abilities. It would seem nearly impossible for a normal relationship. Virtually all relationships between a parent and a child involve some anger towards the parent for whatever reason. This is normally merely a tantrum or something to be dealt with, but what if upsetting the child could result in death or dismemberment? Or even if the child simply begins to do so out of amusement. By the time the child has killed or torn the limbs off someone, it would seem that the time for discipline and chastising has been well passed. People just wouldn't accept a death or two as part of a child's development. This alone would seem justification for special treatment of these children, though certainly not like the researchers had done, although precautions would obviously be needed. I suppose in the end, there's no ethical conclusion, it's just a mutation introduced into a species, possibly a terminal one(since they are typically sterile and possibly prone to mental disturbances, perhaps due to the enlarged pineal gland?), and the violent period in which one species or the other attempts to assert dominance as it becomes difficult for them to co-exist. -Original "Kill or Reproduce" poster
Lucy had plenty of chances (and reasons) to kill Kouta. She shows her affection towards Kouta by sparing his life on more than one occasions: as children on the train; when she has one vector inside Kouta's head and is ready to kill him but pulls her vecotr out instead; when she walked while angry instead of killing Kouta after slipping on a wet floor; and possibly others not shown (I'm speaking of the anime, I haven't read the manga). As Nyuu, she clearly shows affection towards Kouta. This could mean she care about Kouta enough to resist the instinct kill him, even though she was the cause of serious mental damage. Piroteknix 02:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
If the Diclonii are so damn deadly, why aren't humans extinct already? It's not too puzzling, really. Just as mankind used to hunt wolves relentlessly to protect themselves and their livestock, but now protect the wolves from poaching. I also dont think referring to it as a genetic mutation is the best point of view. In truth, we all carry genetic mutations. Perhaps a better term would be adaptation due to the positive effects of the Vectors. The words mutation, virus, murderer, and instinct are dehumanizing terms, similar to what the Nazis did to the Jewish community. Simply convince yourself they are animals and they're easier to kill. On the flip side, the Diclonii convinced themselves that certain people weren't human. It may not seem to make sense, but that's the exact point. To label another as inhuman and then kill him or her is truely inhuman. Live is cruelly ironic. Also, the Diclonii are psychologiaclly traumatized because of what they are. Imagine a dolphin being tortured in a bathtub its whole life. I would be suprised if that dolphin didnt kill anyone it saw. In a hostil environment, an organism has two options: destroy yourself or destroy everything else. ElijahD 14:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Similarities to Chobits

I've heard this series borrows heavily from Chobits. If someone familiar with both could add a section talking about this, i think it'd be interesting. --Brian Kendig 21:57, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the only real similarity is that the main character starts the show wearing no clothes and repeating a single nonsense word. --Shiroi Hane 02:24, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I've watched all of Chobits and only the first episode of Elfen Lied, but I see a few more similarities: the main character (a beautiful woman) was created for a specific purpose and contains a terrible power, but hides that behind an artificial personality which is an unaware innocent - she has a dual personality; the darker side only manifests itself under certain circumstances. The people who take in this beautiful woman are unaware of her power and work to teach her language and behavior skills, while the people who know her secret are out to find her. --Brian Kendig 15:32, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
They are thematicaly similar, and there are specific elements in common, but I don't know that it "borrows heavily". There are many many anime series that focus on destructively testing the human psyche in attempt to approach an answer to the identity question (who/what are we, what is human, etc). --Ashmedai 18:40, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Is it just me, or are girls that can only say one word and keep repeating a new fad in anime? Look at Yumelia, for instance. -Iopq 10:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
When I first heard Lucy say "nyu" I thought "Oh no, not another Chobits." Not that Chobits was a bad show, but I wasn't in the mood for listening to a high pitched voice chant the same line over and over. But the way in which she changed personalities suprised me. At first she would be a cute and innocent girl in odd clothes, but would suddenly turn into a lethal and sexy badass. Her angry face and voice has that mature woman charm to it, but she was still capable of that cute and happy aura that makes you want to hug her. My ex was like that. Only instead of sexy badass, she was a fat angry witch when she was upset. ElijahD 14:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The Inn

I was reading the article just now, and I noticed that Kouta (the guy who finds Nyu, right?) is described thusly:

"Kouta enters the story when he inherits an inn and comes to live there."

Now, I didn't watch the series too carefully, but wasn't he being allowed to live there at the sufferance of Yuki's family as long as he took care of the place? --Maru (talk) Contribs 16:46, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

In the version that I saw, it is heavily implied that ownership of the inn was originally bestowed to Yuka because her family wasn't using it. She then says to Kouta when he is moving in that it is his, as long as he cleans the place, so according to my version, it is his based on a verbal contract. --Js2756 22:13, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
That would be a contract for use of the house, not for ownership, and in that version, it still isn't inherited by Kouta. --Maru (talk) Contribs 22:27, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I'll just post how it was translated in the version I saw, and let you do the interpretation:
Kouta: This is...the home they left you?
Yuka: Yea, they weren't using it. Now it's yours. Mom said it was enough to just clean it.
If someone has the official release and can officially verify/discredit, this conversation takes place in episode 1, just over 10 minutes into the episode. It would be good for the sake of accuracy.-Js2756 03:56, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
The translation I've seen seems to imply that it's under the ownership or rental of Yuka's family, and it's being "rented" to Kouta as long as he keeps it clean in the absense of the owners. Either way, "inherit" typically makes one think that Kouta recieved the Inn from a deceased family member. I feel perhaps that even if ownership was given to him, it might be better to say that the Inn was "granted" or "given" to him.


Capitalization

Is "diclonius" a proper noun or an adjective or what? Should it be capitalized or not? --Maru (talk) Contribs 18:18, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

It refers to a species so usually it would be a common noun. You could also use it as a proper noun or an adjective but the construction could be awkward. --Ashmedai 18:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Diclonius isnt defined as a species, really. It's treated as both a disease and a genetic mutation. A new species must be able to procreate with its own. If it is infact a species, then perhaps the correct term would be Homo diclonius, by standards of binomial nomenclature. I think using Diclonius as both a proper noune and adjective works as it can be used to describe a very specific type of people. ElijahD 14:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Why?

If they know that they can't control what they create, Why were they created in the first place? I mean they do have the to kill those scintist because the were abuse by them and treated like dogs. That's the one i don't like about this anime. Because of the lack of love and understand they kill. --Anon

I don't think that the Diclonius were created through artificial means. Although there is no indication either way, it seems like the diclonius are a natural evolution of humans. However they (except Lucy) lack the means of natural reproduction (they propagate through infecting other humans). It can be argued that they are not created since nobody seems to understand much about them or their powers. I think you're missing one of the points of the show, which is to show the two sides of the nature (Lucy and Mariko) vs nurture (Nana) argument. -Js2756 02:51, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
You dont the lack of love and understanding? Neither do they. That's why they kill. Why do humans go so far just to destroy themselves? Nobody knows. There seems to be some sort of human reflex to become self destructive. ElijahD 14:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler warning in the main article

I'm moving the spoiler section down. There are no spoilers in the introduction. (Nor should there ever be, in any article. ^_^) If someone thinks there's a spoiler in the intro, that information should be relocated. --Starwed 07:02, 28 January 2006 (UTC)


Unspecified Links

Well, I only have one right now, but there might be others:

-The link to "Mayhem" in the characters section (talking about Nana being dismembered)leads to a disambiguation page (in which I couldn't find a link pertaining to elfen lied)

That should probably link to Wiktionary. It's not well-known, but mayhem is actually derived from Middle English, and is a variant of "maim"- meaning to lose limbs. --maru (talk) contribs 18:06, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Translation errors?

"In most English translations there was a mistake made with "close friend" being replaced with "cousin". This is the cause of much confusion among English fans, who believe that she is in an incestuous relationship with Kouta, when in fact, she is just a close friend."

States that 'Close-Friend' was mixed up with 'Cousin', but during a flash back in the last DVD, Yuka clearly calls Kouta's Dad 'Uncle'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Erufen (talk • contribs).

That may or may not mean anything; I know that as a kid, I often called people Uncles and Aunts even if they were simply family friends. Haven't we all seen an anime in which a young kid addressed an older male as "Onee-san"? --maru (talk) contribs 17:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm familiar with customs like that. Dunno about Japan, but at least here in South Africa it's not uncommon to call older family friends "Aunty" or "Uncle" and some people even use "my cousin" as an informal "my friend". So it's plausible that it's a mis-translation but we'd need a citation to make it concrete. - Phorque 20:43, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I just thought that Yuka and Kouta being cousins added alot to the storyline, well what i saw it as, and have read, it shows the flaws of humans. Is there any sources stating that it has been a mistranslation? i'm just wondering is all. --Erufen 09:58, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I thought that them beign cousins made sense. In the first episode, I dont think someone would go up to someone and say "Im your childhood friend". Then again Ill have to check the original Japanese dialogue. -- Psi edit 12:31, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
It's not like incest never happens in anime in the first place. I'm beginning to doubt this "error" more and more. - Phorque (talk • contribs) 10:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, i watched that last night and thought the same thing, also, why would Kouta's whole family go to visit a best friend in another town, if there just 'best friends' how did they even meet? Erufen 01:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I can't check right now, but Yuka probably calls Kouta's dad "O-ji-san" which both means "Uncle" and "middle-age man". Just like onisan or oneesan can be used for one's brother and sister, or for a young man or woman Freon 08:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, they are cousins, so it is incest (depending on your definition). I'm removing this "translation error" bit and changing the description to list her as Kohta's cousin. In the first episode, when meeting him, she tells him: "床です。　従妹の。 (Yuka desu. Itoko no.)" "Itoko" is, very specifically, cousin. Note--incest is a very popular subject in anime, and around the world it isn't looked upon with the same sort of disdain as in the majority of English-speaking countries. --Kuronekoyama 02:43, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I will add a footnote with this being explained. Some anonymous just reverted it to the childhood friend story again. - Phorque (talk • contribs) 10:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for footnoting it. --70.127.189.112 18:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Prof. Kazukawa picture

Proposed new image for Professor Kazukawa.
Enlarge
Proposed new image for Professor Kazukawa.

I've uploaded a new picture for Professor Kazukawa I screencapped from episode 10 of the anime, shown here. Because it's a screencap instead of a scan, the quality is slightly less than what's already there, but I think the camera angle and overall mood of the image is closer to that used in the front-view dossier-like pictures for all the other characters. Anybody have feelings on this either way, would prefer to see this or what's already there?

Yeah, it's a pity he's at an odd angle in the pic, but that's all the official character images had of him. I'm kind of against the loss of quality in this one but if everyone prefers it over the other, go ahead. - Phorque 05:43, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I like the one in the article better. -Iopq 10:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Hand Symbols

In several parts of the opening credits, Lucy is shown with one of her hands forming a specific sign/symbol (whatever you want to call it). Does anyone know if there is accually any symbolism behind this? Or am i just seeing things? They do it a lot though so i assumed that it must mean something. The closest thing i can think of would be a gang hand-sign that symbolized the "West Side" in the united states, but its not quite the same i think, and im sure thats not what it represents in this case...Anyway just wondered if anyone had any ideas. --Aaronsjet 19:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC) (this was me too, forgot to sign lol)

Your right. I knew I had seen that before. I look into it when I can. -- Psi edit 11:03, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, i have noticed this as well, also in the last episode, where Kouta and Lucy hug, she also has the same symbol on her back, and im pretty sure i've seen it other various times throughout the anime! Erufen 13:22, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Humm, really? I've been looking into it some more lately since i made this post, and I was starting to think it was just something they invented for this series. It wouldnt make sense to make something like that up though with out explaining it...so it has to have roots somewhere. Perhaps it's related to something in old latin history, like during roman times or something. --Aaronsjet 19:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

The hand symbol is also imitated by Tupac Shakur in his album "All Eyez on Me". It could be a reference to something... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Eyez_on_Me --Puzk 14:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes, see thats a perfect example of the "west side" hand symbol. If you look close you can see that his thumb is tucked back inside the palm of his hand to form a "W" look. Lucy keeps her thumb outstretched with her other fingers, and her middle and ring fingers are not crossed over, so im guessing that they are most likely not related. I wont deny the are similar though heh. --Aaronsjet 21:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I can explain the cryptic ending (put it in the article but written better?)

At first I thought the ending was a total mindfuck, but now I have figured it out, and who it was that was at the door... Lucy's horns were both shot off, they most likely had this happen so you wouldn't be able to immediatley guess that it was her at the door, and it's also probably symbolic. The last thing Lucy said to Bandoh was something like "This is the last time you'll ever see me." and she walks away from him (presumably after beating his ass again.) So we all know that Lucy/Nyuu has split personalities, I think it must be Nyuu at the door. Lucy dies, Nyuu lives, and she returns home. So she doesn't "die" per se but one of her persoanilites does, if you follow. The music box stops playing lilium to signify the death of Lucy, as she loved that song so much, and the old broken clock starts because Nyuu was always playing with it and interested in it. AshTM 21:20, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Well my take on the ending was a bit different. I would argue that Lucy actually has 3 personalities: Nyū, and then a murderous Lucy and the Lucy she was as a child. She reverted to Nyū after getting shot as a result of the trauma and the sniper rifle bullet. At the end she is the less murderous Lucy. She hasn't been Nyū for a while and is unlikely to go back because she has sorted out many of her problems and apologized to Kouta about what happened. She has moved on and doesn't :need to "hide" behind Nyū anymore.
As well as that she has lost her horns, which are a symbol of being a demon (I intend to write a section on this and biblical references in Elfen Lied over the next week or two and submit it). You don't see her fight back at the soldiers at the end where she lost her second horn because she has changed and no longer kills when she can avoid it. This is also shown when she lets Bandō live after beating him.
The clock is just to let you know it's her I think, regardless of what personality she is in. As for the music box... it's a symbol of the end of that part of the story I think, and the death of part of her.Mors sum 04:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Just remember, as "figured out" as you may think you have it, there's still chapters and chapters of the manga after the conclusion of the anime, so don't post any speculation without actually knowing how the manga ends. The main problem here is that most of us can't read the manga because it isn't available in English, and hasn't even been fully scanlated (oishii-manga is only on Ch46 and they're the furthest ahead I think). Any statements that go beyond the anime should probably have an indication that they are "manga-only" developments on the plot. The anime was obviously left ambiguous/unresolved for some other reason (intentional, budget, just plain evil, who knows?). - Phorque 05:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
True, I forgot to mention that. Has anyone here read the manga, or know someone who has? If so it would be nice if you could tell us what happens....and would the Elfen Lied page then be split into a maga page and an anime page or left as a combination?Mors sum 07:05, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I've read as far as the fan-scanlations have gone (ch46) and it's not past the anime plot, but has introduced Sozomi-chan... people seem to drop statements seemingly referenced from the manga chapters after the conclusion of the anime but don't ever stop to say whether they read it themselves, came to their own conclusions or got it from another source. Personally, I'd rather read the manga myself as it is scanlated than spoil it for myself, and I'll add info as it makes itself apparent there. - Phorque 08:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Part of the reason for the ambiguity of the anime ending is because the ending few episodes of the anime differ drastically from what happens in the manga. I won't get into details because I don't want to spoil it for anyone, but had the anime stayed faithful to the manga, it would have had a much different ending. The ending of the manga is much more conclusive than that of the anime, and a lot happens between Lucy's first encounter with Mariko in the manga, unlike the anime. -Js2756 15:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
So you've read the whole thing? If you've read the Japanese original, please don't hesitate to update this article. I can only vouch for my info up to chapter 47 (as of today). - Phorque (talk • contribs) 18:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I haven't read all of the manga, but I used to frequent a message board where they discussed the manga right up until the final volume was released (then the message board server was hacked and lost a year's worth of posts). It was awhile back since I was there, so my memory is a bit fuzzy on details. -Js2756 16:41, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

If you're brave and don't mind spoilers, read the babelfish translation of the japanese article It'd probably be easier if you can just read japanese. ^^

Please note that i cannot read or understand Japanese. The following is a mixture of what i read at the Elfen Lied fan sites, several viweings of the last volumes of the manga, and my own wishful thinking :D. But i do belive it should be useful to fans of Lucy, like myself, should they wish to know how the series/manga ends. Serveral details have been ommited :D


Achtung spoilers:

Spoiler warning: Plot and/or ending details follow.

well going by the manga story line AshTM is correct. Lucy fights and defeats mariko, loses both her horns, but survives the fight. Also, when she gets back to maple inn, she reverts to her 'Nyuu' personaliy and stays that way for a while. Unfortunately, the institute sends fresh and even more sadistic ppl after Lucy. when maple inn is attacked, nyuu reverts to Lucy, with much bigger horns that appear suddenly, also she gets much longer and more powerful vectors than before <<long enough to take down a helicopter in the sky>>, but still gets one of her horns shot off and faints, ending up being captured. The President of the institute warns lucy that over using her vectors is harmful to her body and could end up destroying her. Still, Lucy manages to escape, meets up with kouta and promises him that she will never kill again, and as she leaves, she is attacked by kurama, but kouta throws himself between them and takes the bullet for Lucy. After seeing kouta get hurt, poor Lucy goes beserk and develops super long vectors <<several Kilometers long>> and smashes several buildings in the city, and still kurama gets rescued by nana. on the other han, Lucy contiues destroy the city whilst cradling kouta. unexpectedly, her left hand *falls off* as if her wrist suddenly rotted away. Lucy savs kouta by healing his bullet wound with her tisue, and meanwhile her body continues to rot/liquefy til shes reduced to a limbless torso. At this point they are attacked again by the people from the lab and they explain that Lucys condition is due to her over use of vectors which "destabilise" her body tissues. they try to take back Lucy, but she chooses freedom and kills off the lab people. By this time most of her body has rotted away and all thats left of Lucy is her head <<with half her face roted off>> and just a skeleton and a mass off purtified flesh below her neck. The other girls from the inn show up at this point and Lucy reverts briefly to Nyuu to bid them farewell. For some reason she chooses to attack them again, but suddely the images of Lucy and Nyuu appear before the gang, shielding them from Lucy. <<speculation: as if the personas of Lucy and Nyuu gained seperate conciousness and have come to terms weith their short and tragic life. More importantly, they forgive the brutal cruelty inflicted on them and wish to end it all>>. Lucy then picks up a gun and hands it to kouta and asks him to end her misery. The manga ends with a tearful kouta crying that "he had killed NYUU".

DAS ENDE

Epilogue: all the other charecters seem to survive. Mayu gets adopted by bandou, nana gets adopted by the bastard kurama, whom she still loves tho he performed brutal experiments on her, and yuka and kouta get married and have a daughter. every year during the summer fetival, Kouta visits the place where he first met Lucy, ie at the grave of Lucys dog. he continues to visit this sopt year after year, as if waiting for someone. Fifteen years after the ending of Elfen Lied, <<not sure here, counting the frames its like 11 years. but judging by the age of his daughter, more than 15 years>> kouta visits the same sopt with his daughter <<who looks just like Yuka>> and explins to her about his "very special" friend. His daughter surprisingly, knows about it and locates a bottle half buried in he grave << this is the same bottle that little Lucy buried about 20 years ago, with a mesage and the jade that kouta gave her as a kid>>

Kouta rushes to the bottle and reads the leter from the distant past... the child hood Lucy's message from twenty years ago reads "If you are reading this, you have fulfilled your promise to me". Kouta breaks into tears at this message of forgivenes from his childhood friend decades ago <<perhaps finally realising his true love for Lucy>>

Suddenly two girls appear<< their hair is in ribbons, just as nyuus hair was, as if to conceal horns>>, and koutas daughter introduces them as her friends. on seeing them, Kota inexplicably becomes joyous and the story ends with a smile :D

<<wild speculation: these two are the Reincarnations of Lucy and Nyuu. their age makes it probable that they wer born around the time of Lucys death. Also the fact that kouta is inexplicably happy at seeing them means he some how recognised Lucy and Nyuu in these two girls. At least I personally hope so my self, because after all she has been through, Lucy deserved a chance at happiness. Nyuu also got reicarnated <<something to do with Lucy/nyuus images which appeard just before Lucys death 15 year ago??>>, It appears they are twins who have had loving parents <<more wild speculation :D , Lragely cos lucy was abandoned at birth and this time she gets loving parents to compensate>>. Probably they have the good memories of their past life, the love they got from kouta, without the bitter memories of horrible child hood :end wild speculation>>

Title errors?

In the article I've read that Elfen Lied would be slightly misspelled German for Elf Song. However, if you would consider it might be Dutch instead of German, then there is no problem with the spelling, and the meaning is not altered.

Are we certain there were translation errors?

I removed that small notice. From looking at the Lied article. There doesnt seem to a translation error. -- Psi edit 21:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Both in German and in Dutch it should be spelled "Elfenlied". Considering the reference to the poem, it's probably German. Shinobu 08:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
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