Talk:Edgbaston Waterworks
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<<photoreq>> --12:32, 2006 May 6 Francisco Valverde
- I have provided a photo but the sun was in the wrong position to get a good photo of just the tower. Needs a sunny afternoon visit. Oosoom 15:44, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Weasel
This article needs concrete sources. Local lore has long held that tower are just weasel words. See Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words
- The first time I heard of the Perrot's Folly and Waterworks tower theory was about five years ago. So far as I know this page is the sole source from which it has been spread throughout the web. Note that the site in question lists it only as something which 'is said' - they also list the wrong set of towers as being the 'Two Towers' mentioned in the title. However, a few Birmingham residents have told me that they had heard the story previously. Thus, I don't believe there are any concrete sources. At best it is a local story. The source of that could be anything from an offhand remark by Tolkien or just someone's guess or assumption that has been magnified in the retelling. --CBDunkerson 14:28, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
- It is possible there are no concrete sources. I copied the paragraph from the Perrott's Folly article having heard the claim many times as a local. However it is impossible to imagine that these two towers so close to Tolkien's house did not influence his imagination. Oosoom 15:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
- In any case, I am sorry, it is still considered Original Research. See Wikipedia:No original research. If you could find a citation by Tolkien, or anything that claims such a fact, it would be best. --Francisco Valverde 16:05, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
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- I've seen and heard the claim on many occasions over many years, including the 1992 Birmingham City Council "Tolkein Trail" leaflet mentioned here [1] and largely reproduced here [2], and included the information myself in the John Henry Chamberlain article several months ago. Oosoom definitely isn't making it up and equally, if it turned out to be true, neither Oosoom nor I could claim any credit for discovering it. This therefore definitely isn't original research: whether it is right or wrong it is neither an "unpublished theory" nor a "new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts, or arguments".
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- At the same time I'm not sure that this is completely provable - I'm not aware of any direct quote from Tolkein saying "I was inspired by Edgbaston Waterworks". It's basically a hypothesis: a very credible and widely held one but, like many claims of artistic influence, still a hypothesis.
- Under those circumstances is the correct and encyclopedic thing to do not to convey the facts as facts (Tolkein did live a few hundred yards away, his sketches of Middle Earth towers do look strangely simillar to the waterworks tower) and the widely-held hypothesis as a widely-held hypothesis (it therefore seems likely that the two towers near his house were the inspiration for the two towers in his book, though there is no direct proof of this)? JimmyGuano 21:44, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
- The sketches actually aren't that similar. The few comparisons which I noted a couple of years ago were fairly minor similarities and it seems clear that the 'Tolkien Trail' and other Birmingham stories about this weren't inspired by the sketches given that they name different towers as the 'Two' in the title. That said, I think it can be included as a theory or claim... the claim exists and references can be cited proving that. The accuracy of the claim itself cannot be proven, but that isn't a problem so long as it is accurately described as unproven in the article. --CBDunkerson 21:54, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
- Removed unsourced claim about Two Towers:
- The sketches actually aren't that similar. The few comparisons which I noted a couple of years ago were fairly minor similarities and it seems clear that the 'Tolkien Trail' and other Birmingham stories about this weren't inspired by the sketches given that they name different towers as the 'Two' in the title. That said, I think it can be included as a theory or claim... the claim exists and references can be cited proving that. The accuracy of the claim itself cannot be proven, but that isn't a problem so long as it is accurately described as unproven in the article. --CBDunkerson 21:54, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
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-- The Tolkien connection -- --OriginalResearch-- J. R. R. Tolkien lived within a few hundred yards of the tower for much of his childhood, so the towers of Edgbaston Waterworks and the nearby Perrott's Folly must have been the inspirations for The Two Towers, after which the second volume of The Lord of the Rings is named. The windows down the side of Perrott's Folly are similar to Tolkien's sketches of Orthanc, and the waterworks tower has a small section rising above the parapet similar to Tolkien's representation of Minas Morgul.
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- Oosoom 17:52, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
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