Talk:Economics/Archive 8

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Contents 1 Possibly valuable reverted edit 2 Pictures 3 Misc Errors 4 Polities vs. Politics 5 POV? 6 Clarification 7 Ethics and Social Science 8 Phillips Curve and Inflation 9 Utopia Theory 10 first sentence 11 Version 1.0 12 Limited resources 13 A modest question 14 Answering Modest Question 15 Allocation 16 Request for references 17 Question about the definition 18 Associative Economics 19 Etymology 20 Category sorting 21 Reverted edit on June 19th 22 On etymology 23 Portal 24 Link 25 Improvement Drive 26 Legal people 27 Economics and ethics

Possibly valuable reverted edit

For about 34 minutes, someone replaced the beginning of the article with this:

Economics began as a study of exchange in the hands of Adam Smith. (See Whately 1832). But the neoclassical revolution turned it into a study of allocation (See Robbins 1932). The current orthodoxy or mainstream thinks of economics as a study of allocation. In it, an isolated individual optimally allocates some existing wealth.

The allocation model uses formal mathematics to derive theorems of how allocation decisions are made under any conceivable situation. Mathematicians who do not understand economics issues may do very well as builders of abstract models of all conceievable scenarios. The problem: these have no relevance to real life.

But optimization is not all. Economists also want to know how new wealth is created through entrepreneurship. Neoclassical economics is inherently incapable of dealing with entrepreneurship (see Baumol 1968), which is often counter-optimizing. It just does not know how to deal with collective decision. Arrow's Impossibility Theorem ([click here]) says that it is impossible to formulate a social decision. This is a confession that neoclassical economics does not know how to analyze group decisions. Since all market decisions are group decisions among buyer, sellers, and often also intermediaries, neoclassical economics is unable to say anything meaningful about the market or market events. But it pretends to know everything.

The allocation model is under serious challenge by several heterodox approaches such as the Marxian, the Austrian, the Institutionalist and the Keynesian approaches. Since June 2000, students in prestigious schools in France, England, USA and in many other countries have revolted against the percieved autism of neoclassical economics. (Visit www.paecon.net) So wait to see major changes in this article.

Some of that material may be valuable to work in. Much of it seems to be ripped from somewhere (The click here note gives a clue towards that). Also the warning at the end of major changes seems to be ignorant, purposely or not, of the collaborative editing process we have here. I thought the matrial was, at a minimum, worth discussion. - Taxman 15:09, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

It's heavily POV. If someone feels that a particular point of view is worth documenting - Austrian, Keynesian or otherwise - then they should do so. However, the graf as written is a manifesto without substance. There are plenty of challenges to neo-classical economics - from Game Theory, xaos theory, "Total Progress Indicator", Green economics, Marxism, Marxian, Austrian, Neo-Keynesian - and many of these have been documented in wiki. The material doesn't have substance behind it. It could have been written by a LaRouchite. Further, misreading a standard theorum (in this case Arrow's) is usually a dead give away of a POV without sufficient substantiation. Thanks for dropping it here so it is recorded, but it isn't wiki, it's his web site.Stirling Newberry 16:15, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

What is the warning at the end of major changes? I was the one that reverted it the previous version. It is not clear if you are suggesting I made a major change in reverting and that I should have left it in the main article to discuss it? CSTAR 16:22, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

No, I'm only suggesting exactly what I did. Remove the heavily POV material to the talk page and discuss what of it has merit to go back in once it has been refactored. The material makes some good points and even provides references for some of it. Baumol 1968 might have valuable backing for the point the edit made, and he may have a good point about current orthodoxy focusing on allocation. I'm only suggesting that if there is even a chance that the material can add something to the article it should be brought to talk, not reverted without discussion. Leaving it in the article would keep the article from being NPOV, which is of course, not good. - Taxman 13:47, Jul 17, 2004 (UTC)

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I agree that there should be further "interdisciplinary" discussion of alternative viewpoints. Some of the references in the "French section" are worth looking at, this even if some might cringe at a site which lists Bruno Latour as reference - the link fails, helas.(I have long since given up on poking fun at "post-modernists". Even though my original sympathies were with Sokal in that war, I think in the end the post-modernists got the last laugh and in the end who will be remembered -- Foucalt surely.). Robert Solow has a somewhat apologetic article in French and then there is this, from Ces merveilleux manuels américains

Tout le monde loue - pour leurs qualités pédagogiques, leur accessibilité et leur absence de formalisme - les ouvrages sur les "principes de l'économie" publiés ces dernières années par des auteurs américains réputés, tels Mankiw et Stiglitz. Couleurs, photos, extraits d'articles de journaux sur des problèmes d'actualité, raisonnements simples et décomposés à l'extrême : le produit est alléchant. Ces ouvrages connaissent des tirages très importants : Mankiw a touché plus de 2 millions de dollars avant même d'avoir écrit une seule ligne...

Translation

Everyone hails, by their pedagogical style, accessibility and absence of formalism, works on "Economic Principles, published in recent years by well-known american authors, such as Mankiw and Stigliz. Lots of color, photos, excerpts of journal articles on current day problems, simple and extremely incremental reasoning. These works have large numbers of copies sold; Mankiw has earned 2 million dollars even before writing a line

which, hey who can disagree with that? This is all very nice, but really, does any of this belong in an expository article on economics? This is mostly dedicated to the teaching of economics rather than economics itself.

CSTAR 20:15, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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But it gets a great deal of it wrong - economics, if by this you mean the study of economic behavior - goes back to Plato and Aristotle, who saw it through the tension between individual gain and the necessity for collective defense (see the evolution of the polis in Plato where the "feverish city" falls under attack because it has not ability to unify and defend itself). This viewpoint is the subtext of Wealth of Nations - note the title, the Wealth of Nations - and the importance of a social decision to engage in market behavior, which Smith outlines in Book I, and also in his other work. The name alone "Post Autism Economics" should be a clue that the writers of it are, shall we say, fringy. References mean nothing - every fringe group can site passages which show the evils of the past and where they came from. It's easy. As for "the study of exchange" and the "study of production" - that's the rough and ready distinction between "economics" and "political economy". Political economy assumes that political, collective, decision making manifests itself in measurable ways which alter economic relationships. What I don't see is anything in the passage which hasn't been dealt with in the various wiki articles. What's documentable here? A web site that declares economists and mathematicians are autistic? Replaced with what? A vague sense that people want something different? When the POV has something to document, and a visible sign that it has adherents and a self sustaining discourse, then it's worth documenting.

I'm very sympathetic to challenges to neo-classical economics - being the author of one - but by the same token, we have to have something to document here. If you feel the criticisms of the neo-classical synthesis need to be strengthened with some of the citations, by all means go ahead and do that. That's something that is documentable: POVs that question exchange as the basis. Stirling Newberry 14:06, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Pictures

I would like to suggest we put the pictures up for a vote - enough people seem to have enough strong feelings about this to make it worth reaching a consensus. Stirling Newberry 16:17, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Suggested have been:

As well as profiles of Ricardo, Marx and Smith.

Any others? Stirling Newberry 16:19, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have seen no objection to the pics so far. Unless you're actually objecting here. The article clearly needs pictures, and there's nothing wrong with it having lots of pics, as long as they're all relevant and say something - David Gerard 16:26, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I'm not objecting, but with 3 changes in less than 24 hours, and no a priori reason to have one over the other, it just seems better to discuss it than have people come along and decide "that's not economics, this is economics". Stirling Newberry 16:51, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I can whip up an XFIG picture of something like an Edgeworth box, turnpike growth path etc. I gave up on the idea of digital camera and taking a picture of the outside of Walmart (I'm too chicken). I don't think the pictures at the top should be of people. I like the picture of the Chichicastenango market.CSTAR 16:37, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The market pic's very, um, Economist, isn't it ... I'm assuming some of the harder economics articles, or related mathematics articles, will have graphs'n'stuff. If they don't, they should - David Gerard 16:42, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Look nice that you choose picture, when i shoot it i wasn't really thinking that it was going to illustrate a Economics article. if you come up with an idea about an object or illustration that represent economics i would try to come-up with a picture. Cheers, Chmouel 18:13, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The more specific economics articles do indeed have some good, crunchy graphs. Off the top of my head I remember labor economics as a good example. Isomorphic 00:45, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I would add Keynes, since he basically started macroeconomics. In terms of graphs, I would use a supply and demand graph, since it's simple and ubiquitous and it's the first thing every intro student learns. All the ones at supply and demand are icky and pixellated, though. --Taak 22:13, 17 Jul 2004 (UTC)

We have a Keynes image, Image:Keynes.gif, but there is no copyright or attribution information on it so I'm reluctant to add it. A Keynes image that's GFDL or public domain would be ideal. (Fair-use or by-permission images are allowed on Wikipedia, but discouraged.) Image:Demand shift out.png has the right aesthetic qualities whilst being reasonably comprehensible at a glance - I'll see if there's somewhere sensible to put it - David Gerard 21:42, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've just added Image:Demand shift out.png in the relevant section. It does look a bit crappy and pixelated; anyone sufficiently motivated can draw a replacement for it and update the image - David Gerard 21:47, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Does the following image look any less crappy? ANy minor edits are easy to make (even color!)

CSTAR 02:45, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Antialiasing would be nice - the curves have nasty jaggies. Perhaps you could upload a bigger version and use wikipedia's thumbnailer? Lupin 08:17, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)ft out.png]]

Here's a somewhat bigger example, perhaps better, although maybe this defeaning silence is a subtle hint. It's OK, I can take rejection.

supply demand

CSTAR 17:44, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Looks good, I would just propose labeling the supply curve too to be accurate. - Taxman 18:31, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)

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OK how about this?

supply demand

CSTAR 20:00, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I like it, but now that you bring it up, color would make it even more perfect. Best would be color and a non color method of differentiating the supply and demand, like dashes. That way print in B&W or color blind people could still tell the difference. Sorry to be picky. - Taxman 20:38, Jul 19, 2004 (UTC)

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Picture with color

CSTAR 04:43, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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Should I replace the supply-demand picture? CSTAR 20:21, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well I was hoping for dashes in the supply line to facilitate making the difference between the two curves more obvious in the case if it was printed in B&W. Then the picture could be used for the supply and demand article too. And when I took you up on your offer of color, I was hoping you weren't thinking of those colors. :) Maybe something more along the lines of primary colors? Sorry to be picky, but I guess its easier while you're at it. - Taxman 21:11, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)

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Last try

CSTAR 00:09, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Perfect as far as I'm concerned ;-) Now we just need a picture of Keynes that isn't of dubious copyright status ... - David Gerard 11:41, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and if you're on a roll, the pixely things in supply and demand could probably do with being replaced similarly - David Gerard 11:46, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Misc Errors

Hello, I think this sentence is incorrect: "There is some degree of tension between economics and ethics, another of the most basic social sciences, which tends to avoid quantification and emphasize balances of rights." Ethics isn't a social science, i.e. it hardly, if at all, conducts experiments or studies empirical findings as a science does. It is a humanity, like philosophy, in that it uses rational arguements to make its case. If it is agreed, then let's change social science to humanity or other equilivant word. --ShaunMacPherson 06:33, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Polities vs. Politics

Someone inserted a query about the phrase "the economy of polities" into the article, wondering if it should read "the economy of politics." I don't know the actual quote, but from context the answer is probably that it's correct as written. I believe "polity" is a political entity such as a state. The use is therefore appropriate. Isomorphic 02:50, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

POV?

What's POV about In contrast, most of today's currencies including the US dollar are fiat money meaning it has no intrinsic value?

Well for one, the value of currency (fiat or otherwise) is based on a system of trust-- is that valiue intrinsic to the currency or to something else; I'm not sure that's what the problem with the original formulation, but the notion of intrinsic economic value is certainly dubious. CSTAR 23:18, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Intrinsic value refers to the material fiat money is made of. Paper is intrinsically (almost) worthless as opposed to gold or silver. I don't think that's POV.--Fenice 10:03, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I just saw that the quote comes from a caption without further explanation. As I said, I don't think it's POV. But the sentence is hard to understand in this context, so I support removing it.--Fenice 10:12, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

First the definition of the US dollar as a "fiat currency" is debateable - some say it is, and some say it isn't. Intrinsic value is another notion that is economically debatible, since many economists, do not believe there is any such thing as "intrinsic" value. It is certainly not an assertion to be made in a caption. It's POV - namely gold bug POV. Stirling Newberry 14:40, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't quite follow how one can dispute that the dollar is fiat money. I must be one of those ultra-conservatives that the fiat money article says define fiat stringently. "Intrinsic value" does seem debatable, but I'm sure we could work around that. Maybe not at a length that would make it reasonable to include in the caption. - Nat Krause 15:20, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

There's a whole long article at fiat money on this. The difference between asset money and fiat money is controversial, and therefore not something to assert. More over the caption takes a very specific POV - namely that representative money has intrinsic value - and that is something that even many gold bugs don't agree with. Stirling Newberry 16:17, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Would it be safe to say that most currencies today are not directly pegged to the value of precious metals? --Taak 04:31, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It would also be safe to assert that most money isn't in the form of coinage. But the point is... What? Is this the most important fact about money? Or more to the point, is it the most important fact about money in relation to the discipline of economics? Or is it something that some people want to point out for their own POV? We've got gold standard, Austrian economics, money, fiat money, paper money, Bretton Woods, supply side economics, Austrian economics macroeconomics -- plenty of places to go into the subject in as much detail as is required for any one. If people feel it is important, add a sentence on monetary basis and the arguments over central banking and legal tender... Stirling Newberry 04:42, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Clarification

The sentence regarding Say's Law struck me as cumbersome and in need of a little improvement. icut4u 22:03, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ethics and Social Science

Ethics is most certainly not a branch of the social sciences (unless one really means an ethnographic study of moral codes, which does not seem to be the case). Not in any university I know, and not even on the social science article the sentence references and that is linked hereto. Ethics is part of the humanties, specifically, philosophy. In fact, there is also a kind of quantificationin branches of ethics...for example, the application of game theory (Nozick, Williams, and others) and, in metaethics, where philosophers make use of formal, logical construction. I corrected the sentence to reflect these facts.icut4u 04:32, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Phillips Curve and Inflation

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Phillips Curve:

Phillips Curve shows the relation ship between increase in money wage and the unemployment rate.It depict very important point about the rate of increase of inflation and the rate of unemployment.This is really a wonderful theory and talk about the historical data and its relationship with unemployment.The following diagram represent this relationship

Faraz Akhtar

Utopia Theory

That was recently added to the article as a 'new' field of economics. For one thing I don't think that is new or a valuable addition, but I didn't want to unilateraly revert. What do others think? - Taxman 17:05, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

Anything is possible. However I would say chuck it, unless someone provides an academic reference or an economically meaningful definition of what a utopia is (I dunno, some game theoretic property of Nash equilibria in relation to something else, coming up with the def ain't my problem). I don't have a clue what this could be. CSTAR 17:41, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A quick google search found an article in PhysicsWeb that uses the term Utopia theory. The article describes it as the intersection between physics and the social sciences. An interesting read with a further reading list at the end. Edwinstearns 18:20, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Actually that's pretty reasonable. Here is the addition. If it can be substantiated with credible references it can certainly go back in: - Taxman 18:42, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

"A new field in economics is the study of the feasibility of making society a utopia, dubbed utopia theory."

The name seems soemwhat of a misnomer; something like statistical microeconomics might have been a better name (no I am not suggesting we call it that. WP is not in the business of assigning names). However, there is something called economic physics which appears to denote something similar. I also notice that none of the references cited in the Physics Web article refer to it as Utopia theory. I suggestion caution before sanctioning the name Utopia. CSTAR 18:57, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is the main article on economics. I see little value to mentioning minor theories here, even if they are real and legitimate. Such material belongs further down in the Wikipedia depth chart. Besides, the article on Utopia theory seems kind of looney, or at least poorly explained. Isomorphic 19:30, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Agree.CSTAR 19:40, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

first sentence

I look at the first sentence from October and it seems much better. It seems to have gotten worse since then. Or at least more narrowly defined, it seems to define economics as a certain school or schools sees it. It was broaded before. That it is focused on price was added since October, but is all economics focused on price? The early economists from Adam Smith to David Ricardo and so forth were not really price-obsessed, and there continues to exist a focus on other aspects of economics such as say production, although of course probably not among economic professors at American business schools. It also adds that this is "seen through the lens of allocation of scarce resources". This is another definition narrowing it in terms of economic schools. Some people might see it through the lens of the value provided by labor.

The paragraph after that is a recent addition (last two months), which also explains economics through the lens of one particular economic school. I'll deal with that later. Ruy Lopez 07:06, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've created a section called "Schools of economic thought" with a subsection called "Neo-classical economics" into which I've moved some of the neo-classical assertions to. The opening four paragraphs now seem basically broad enough to encompass all of economics, but two paragraphs there previously asserted ideas of the neo-classical theory which I moved to the sub-section. Ruy Lopez 12:55, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Version 1.0

I'm doing a little work here as part of the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team. This article is listed on User:Taxman/Featured articles with references problems. Maurreen 09:33, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Limited resources

Recently added: "It studies allocation mechanisms that describe how to distribute limited resources among unlimited wants of people." So would there be no "economics" of a situation of abundance, such as the Potlatch cultures of the Northwest Natives? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:02, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

Maybe it would work to just insert "generally" or a similar modifier? Maurreen 07:16, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Potlatch is an unusual phenomenon known as a gift economy. Even then, it's still a system of distribuitng limited resources; if resources were truly unlimited, no transfer or trade would be necessary. -- Scott e^iπ 06:17, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

But it was mostly a creation of artificial scarcity, often ritual scarcity, in the face of abundance. For example, at times the potlatch consisted of ritual destruction of objects: someone might display his wealth and stature by burning blankets. For a further example, in some contexts a high gift value was placed on charred, partially destroyed ritual objects that had been burned in potlatch ceremonies. This is much more a matter of managing abundance than of managing scarcity. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:54, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

The description for Neo-classical economics starts "Neo-classical economics begins with the premise that resources are scarce and that it is necessary to choose between competing alternatives." Frankly I just don't get it - does that imply that Keynsian Economics starts from a different premise, a premise that resources are not scarce? Does Marxian Economics start from the premise that one can in fact choose multiple alternatives? (Schroedinger's cat eat your heart out - we can have our cake and eat it too... At the same time!) Rather, I think that this characterisation of Neo-classical economics may be just the tiniest bit misleading. - JS 05:41, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Arguably, some Marxian economics does not start from the premise that resources are inherently scarce. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:58, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

A modest question

Material flow:

Extractors => Raw Materials => Raw Material Transport => Processors => Product => Distribution => Consumption

According to what I understand to be the "laws" of economics, under the following circumstances one would expect a certain result:

1.) A raw material (crude oil)is provided at market price under production volumes, but not prices, determined by a cartel (OPEC) to a number of processors (manufactures, in this case a number of refiners) who provide a product for distribution to consumers (various products, but predominantly motor fuels). End consumer market prices are set by supply and demand, as are raw materials prices to the processors under the production restraints imposed by the cartel. Assume that the flow-through and pricing have stabilized.

2.) a processor is disabled. Under the laws of economics (as I understand them), the price of the raw material (crude oil) should decrease (since demand is now decreased) or remain constant (if supply of raw material is reduced by producers in response to changed market conditions) and the price of the product should increase (assuming constant demand and reduced supply due to reduced supply from the processors.

Recently, there was a refinery explosion which disabled about 3% of the U.S. processing of petroleum products.

Contrary to the expectations outlined above, the price of crude oil ("Raw Materials" above) increased.

This seems counter-intuitive. Can any expert explain this in rational market terms?

Thanks in advance, Leonard G. 03:51, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Answering Modest Question

This is the first time I've posted anything on Wikipedia before, but I had to answer Leonard's question.

If a processor is disable, demand doesn't shift back, supply shifts back. This is the cause for the price increase. It is also, to an extent, the main ideas behind Reaganomix, Thatcherism, and suppl-yside economics, only with the AD/AS model instead of a simple basic supply/demand graph.

I might as well pose a question of my own. Higher taxes on the rich and less on the poor are supposed to help income disparity right? Well, when I look at the basic supply/demand graphs, the exact opposite happens.

Take a the high-end income labor market, for example, and say taxes are increased on those laborers earning high-income. This in turns increases their costs, and because of this, shifts their supply curve back. In response there are less high-end laborers, with even higher incomes. The point of more taxes on the rich is to create more less-income laborers.

Oddly enough, the same things happens with low-income laborers. If taxes are decreased on low-income laborers, this means less costs, which means their supply curve shifts outward. Because of this, the equilibrium price causes more poorer laborers.

Thoughts on this?

Labour is a somewhat weird market. Increasing the wage recieved can either decrease or increase the amount supplied. Some people will see a wage increase and think, now I don't need to work as much to earn the amount I need to live on. Others will see a wage increase and think, now I can get more money per hour of leisure that I give up, so I will work more. Which direction people will go depends on personal preferences. As for your other question, think about this: Is your goal to decrease inequality between incomes, or is it to raise the income of the lowest portion? If I am thinking correctly about what you said, you are decreasing the number of rich relative to the number of poor, which should decrease income disparity, which is the original goal. Jrincayc 12:49, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Labor markets are also heavilly dependent on culture. For example, U.S. laborers tend to respond to raises in pay by working more, so they can make more money (Americans are crass materialists, obviously.) Laborers in Mexico tend to do the opposite: they decrease their hours when wages go up (Mexicans are lazy, obviously.) It has to do with the relative values give to leisure time and material goods. Isomorphic 13:21, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Allocation

Hi. Does anyone think the opening should define economics as the study of resource allocation instead of production and consumption? After all, not all of the problems studied by economics directly involve produciton and consumption. It's usually defined that way. Does anyone think that's POV? Mgw 23:42, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Request for references

Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 19:20, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

Question about the definition

Can anyone clarify for me what is meant by the phrase "through measurable variables" in the first sentence of the article? - Nat Krause 10:21, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I can't. That part doesn't sound like any definition of economics I've heard. After all, in micro you deal a lot with utility, which is completely unmeasurable since no one even believes in absolute utility any more. Isomorphic 18:16, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's the point. Micro deals with revealed preferences from which ordinal utilities can be shown to exist. An assertion involving cardinal utilities is not "a meaningful theorem": this means that it's not in principle falsifiable, which is one criterion of meaningfulness. CSTAR 18:39, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But the ordinal utilities are still not "measurable" in any normal sense of the word. "Measurable" implies some observable quantity to be measured. You can infer preferences directly from observation, but preferences are just an ordering, not a quantity. Isomorphic 19:52, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I think your usage of measurable in this sense is too narrow. A preference is an abstract object, but abstract objects can also be measurable. For instance, experimental quantum physicists measure momentum in a laboratory; in quantum mechanics momentum is a self-adjoint operator. That's pretty abstract.--CSTAR 20:35, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's not abstraction that's bothering me here. My point is that there is no quantity that can be measured. Observation can establish a preference relation, but the step from preference relation to utility function involves an arbitrary choice. There are a continuum of functions that would satisfy a given preference relation. Given that, you can't call utility a "measurable variable".

My underlying point is that I don't see "measurable variables" as being central to the practice of microeconomics. The typical methodology of micro is to construct a mathematical model and then see if it what it produces looks reasonable. Nobody cares much about measuring the underlying variables like value, as long as the model's output looks reasonable. Experimental economics exists, but it doesn't have nearly the kind of importance in microeconomics that experimental physics does in physics. Isomorphic 21:07, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The step from preference relation to cardinal utility function involves an arbitrary choice. And even though much of microeconomic theory (such as general equilibrium theory) is not ordinarily thought of as "empirical", it would be very strange to argue that its results aren't emprically testable. When you say the model's output looks reasonable doesn't this imply some empirically observable assertions?

But in any case, if the phrase measurable values bothers you, please change it. I didn't put it in, although I do have some philosophical sympathy for that notion. Unfortunately, I've been getting too bogged down with philosophical discussions of late in WP. If you want entertainment, look at Talk:Bell's theorem.--CSTAR 21:26, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Associative Economics

Seems like a euphemism for socialism.

Etymology

It was wrong. And I think the greek spelling is still wrong, but I don't have a dictionary with me. --pippo2001 09:54, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Category sorting

I've been slowly working on Category:Economics and am hoping that anyone who watches this page might be able to help. The main category has more than 150 articles and many should be sorted into subcategories. I don't know much about the subject. Maurreen 23:44, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reverted edit on June 19th

I reverted the edit made by 82.32.64.213 on June 19th to last version by Muijzo. That user then reverted the edit that I made. The only thing I agree with his change is the term "ceteris paribus". UH Collegian 17:13, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry didn't see this before my latest revert. Can you explain what you don't agree with in my edits? Is "study of incentives" inappropriate?

I would be happy to do a version which combined aspects of both - just that I am not happy if my edits are reverted without explanation as to why it was done.

--82.32.64.213

Perhaps I will begin with an explanation of my edits:

1. 'Study of incentives': Economics is about making constrained choices - and thus is essentially about the incentives behind each and every choice. I was inspired to make this comment from the book/website Freakonomics - as it seems rather apt at describing Economics.

2. Ceteris paribus: No need for explanation =)

3. Removed 'radical' because "marxist" doesnt necessarily imply radical: In an European context, Marxism is a foundation of many social democratic parties. Denoting that something is 'radical' seems against the NPOV.

4. 'Normative' can be described for all forms of Economics - if one adopts a positivist approach, one may see certain parts of economics as positive and others as normative - but if one adopts a post-postivist approach, one would argue that certain positive statements are in fact normative, in that it makes the suggestion of keeping the status-quo. A NPOV should accept both views.

I am not happy that just having my edited reverted, e.g. by UH Collegian and 63.20.123.105 without explanations; I am happy for changes to be made, if they are discussed first. Perhaps, there's a better way to express what I have wrote - in that case, edit it rather than revert it!

--82.32.64.213

I agree with 82.32.64.213's edit, and I will unrevert any reverts of it unless the reverts are documented with specific and actionable reasons for the revert. That said, if there are good reason for reverting it I will read them. UH Collegian, what specificly did you disagree with and why? Jrincayc 21:57, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Okay, the only thing I did not agree with 82.32.64.213's edit was that the user removed "radical" but after the user's rationale, I think it is okay with the removal. I hope no one took it personally that I reverted an edit because at first I thought his edit was not NPOV. However, I would like to change the definition for ceteris paribus to "all things equal". I believe that is a better definition. UH Collegian 01:48, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The context that I hear ceteris paribus in economics usually would be all else equal, rather than all things equal, but I could be wrong. Sometimes when I revert something that I am not sure about reverting, I make sure and add something like "feel free to discuss in talk" to the edit summary message, so that it is more obvious that I think there might be justification for it. Jrincayc 02:22, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Maybe it has to do with regions that we are in. I am from Texas and people down in Texas refer to ceteris paribus as "all things equal" and that is what all I have been hearing at the University of Houston. UH Collegian

The wikipedia article on Ceteris paribus lists as a translation: "other things the same", so probably that is the more common usage. Jrincayc 12:31, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes clearly it's not all things equal because when using ceteris paribus, the point is to discuss a change in one thing holding the rest equal. That change means not all things are equal. So your university is at odds not only with how it is used everywhere else, but when it comes down to it, common sense too. Also at issue here, is reverting a change instead of just discussing it. When will people reallize that reverting changes that are made in good faith only leads to resentment and revert wars? Unless an edit is vandalism or is actively negative for an article, just discuss on the talk page why you disagree with the edits. If there is no response, then revert or adjust. Clearly that would have been better in this case since, UH Collegian, you started out saying "The only thing I agree with.." then moved to "The only thing I did not agree with..." then after reading the user's rational you agreed with the changes. The hard feelings (which could have gotten much worse) could have been easily avoided by the method I just outlined. Finally, to the anon, while you don't have to register, it does make keeping consistent conversations with you much easier, and you'll find people will automatically have a higher level of respect for your edits. - Taxman ^Talk 15:10, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

I find "all things held constant" and/or "all other things equal", etc. in most literatures (academic journals, etc.) so it is not just my school. I am an accounting major, not economics, so we (business majors such as accounting and finance) think a little differently about the world than economics majors. UH Collegian 18:05, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But the difference between those is what I was getting at. Its all else or all other things, because the point of the exercise is to vary one of the quantities while holding the others constant. But that's not what your edit to the article says, so I'll fix it. The phrase may even literally mean "all things equal", I don't know latin, but that is not helpful for how it is used. As Jrincayc noted, our ceteris paribus article makes the translation as "other things equal", which preserves the important distinction. Also the ceteris paribus discussion really should be a bit more prominent than being down in the 'Economics and other disciplines' section. It's really a lot more central to economics. - Taxman ^Talk 19:02, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

On etymology

The greek word oikos is spelled actually "οίκος", and "νέμω" is an archaic verb, meaning literally "to distribute", although it later received also the meaning of "rules" ("law" is a better translation to "νόμος", as "rule" is "κανόνας"). "to distribute" is actually more accurate to the meaning of economia. I can assure that, since my native language is Greek. Please edit this page; the server seems to be down at this moment.

No, that is not correct. Please refer to an Etymology Dictionary if you have doubts. This are just two of the descriptions:

c.1530, "household management," from L. oeconomia, from Gk. oikonomia "household management," from oikonomos "manager, steward," from oikos "house" (cognate with L. vicus "district," vicinus "near;" O.E. wic "dwelling, village;" see villa) + nomos "managing," from nemein "manage" (see numismatics). The sense of "manage the resources of a country" (short for political economy) is from 1651. Hence, economic (1835) means "related to the science of economics," while economical (1780) retains the sense "characterized by thrift." Economist is 1586 in the sense of "household manager," 1804 meaning "student of political economy." Economy (adj.) as a term in advertising at first meant simply "cheaper" (1821), then "bigger and thus cheaper per unit or amount" (1950). FROM Online Etymology Dictionary

The basic notion contained in the word economy is “household management”. It comes from Greek oikonomia, by way of French or Latin, and means the “steward of a household”. This was a compound noun formed from oikos, “house” and nemein, “manage”. The original sense “household management” was extended into English. It broadened out in the 17th century to the management of a nation’s resources, while the use of the derivative economics for the theoretical study of the creation and consumption of wealth dates from the early 19th century. From Ayto, John. Dictionary of Word Origins. New York: Arcade Publishing, 1990. --pippo2001 01:16, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Portal

There is a new portal. See Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Business, Economics, Finance. Maurreen 03:39, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Link

Someone recently moved the link to Tutor2u up near the top of the list. I'd never looked at it before, so I followed it, and basically got a splash page of ads, with content down the right margin. Should we link this at all? If so, does it really belong near the top of the list? I think not. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:36, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Depends on the quality of the content. If it's not very high, remove it. If it's decent, move it to a more appropriate spot in the order. Lots of these advertising sites love to have links from Wikipedia since it raises their search engine ratings. I'm wondering if we have some guidelines written up about what to keep and what not to, beyond the small bit in Wikipedia:What wikipedia is not. - Taxman ^Talk 15:34, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

Improvement Drive

The article subsidy is currently nominated to be improved on Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. If you want to support the article, you can vote for it there.--Fenice 17:50, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
You might also be interested in Grameen Bank, an institution involved in microcredit loans in the third world. Vote for Grameen Bank on WP:IDRIVE.--Fenice 06:27, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Legal people

I think Economics would benefit from having a List of legal topics type list. I was talking to MyDogAteGodsHat too, does anyone know if there is a similiar topic for economics, and if there is a redirect to it from List of economic topics would be useful. --ShaunMacPherson 06:45, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

It is at List of economics topics.--Fenice 07:01, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Economics and ethics

This sentence is just plain wrong: "One way economists deal with this is to qualify discussions of economic choice by noting the qualifier ceteris paribus ("all other things held constant...") referring to moral or social factors that are (for the sake of argument) held equivalent for all choices that one might make."

The ceteris paribus assumption has nothing to do with ethics but is rather the simple recognition of the fact that at any particular time a given phenomenon is subject to multiple influences and in order to understand any of these we must consider them one at a time - all other things being equal. The way economists usually deal with ethical issues is by distinguishing between Positive (is) and Normative (ought) economic statements (which said distinction should be mentioned somewhere in the article, perhaps along with social welfare functions and the like). radek