Talk:Dyke (lesbian)

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1 Merge
2 Move?
3 Bulldyke
4 Dyke reclaimed
5 origin
6 Picture deletion
7 Widely used in the UK?
8 Contradiction

[edit] Merge

This page was merged shortly after its creation without comment. The reasons for the creation of this page include:

This is a derogatory term like fag (which is not a redirect to homosexual), nigger (which does not redirect to blacks), etc.
The categorization of this page places it in ready reach of many other such terms, and it from them.

Please do not make radical changes to such pages without discussion. If you feel that this page should be merged, there are templates that open up the discussion to a wider audience. -Harmil 14:39, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Note: except for the disambiguation link, the very first link on this page is to lesbian, and I agree that that is the primary source for details on the topic of lesbianism in general. This is a specific page about this one term -Harmil 14:44, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't think this page contains enough material to justify a separate article, which is why I merged it. Fag is effectively a disambiguation page, though I concede nigger. I'll place an appropriate template on the page, since I do think it should be merged. Ken 15:35, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

I'm torn here but I'll come down against a merge; I note there is already an article at Lipstick lesbian and arguably this term is as valid and already the same size. There is no "terminology" section on lesbian (there should be - I'll try to write it soon) and this could be expanded further. I note the link on the merge template is leading to 'lesbian' rather than here btw. --Vamp:Willow 16:07, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm strongly against it. Dyke has shades of meaning and intent different from lesbian. Also the invective potential of dyke makes a merge and re-direct contextually dodgy. Wyss 18:52, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Regarding Lipstick lesbian, I'd say it should be merged as well. There should definitely be a "terminology" section in the main article. As far as shades of meaning, invective, etc. yes, the word dyke can be pejorative. So can "lawyer" or "accountant". And the word dyke is used, according to the article in question, "... is usually used in a non-pejorative sense as simple alternative to 'lesbian' or 'gay woman'." I don't see the objection. Ken 00:02, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Move?

The discussion about merging is useful, and valid (I've already stated my position above), but assuming that we keep the separate article, I'm tempted to move this to "Dyke (slang)", since most other articles that need parentheticals to disambiguate use a term like "slur" or "slang" not further definition. Thoughts? -Harmil 18:58, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

"Dyke (slang)" might make sense, although arguably the use for the tools is also a slang usage and the disambig term in the brackets often relates to the target too. I'm probably happy whichever ... --Vamp:Willow 19:35, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

You have a good point there. I'll leave it, I guess. -Harmil 19:38, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bulldyke

Another recent edit changed "bulldyke" to "bull dyke". This is incorrect, and while listing both terms might make sense, the history of the word "bulldyke" goes back to the 1920s, when the word was "bulldyker" (which incidentally invalidates the WWII theory, so I'll remove that). [1] Based on this historical use of the single-word variant, I'm going to add it back in, but I too have seen the (perhaps more common) modern two-word variant, so it stays. -Harmil 18:58, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

That was me adding the space there; haven't come across it as a single word (I wasn't around in the 20s is my excuse!) --Vamp:Willow 19:35, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dyke reclaimed

I think that this article needs a little more info on the status of the word within the LGBT community (including adding that info to the intro). I think that a prime example of the misunderstanding of the word was the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office's denial of the "Dykes on Bikes" trademark, which was recently reversed (see [2], [3], and [4]). What would be great is to find a good photo of the Dykes on Bikes at the head of a Gay Pride parade. I tried a quick Google Image search, but didn't see anything that I thought would work. Here's a link to the San Francisco Woman's Motocycle Contigent/Dykes on Bikes website: [5].

There are now Dyke Marches around the world (see [6], which is another example of the reclaimation of the word within the LGBT community. 4.232.105.117 10:19, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

The tone of the article seems to suggest that "dyke" is used by the majority of gay women. Is this really the case? None of the several gay female friends I have use the word, and some of them have expressed a distaste for the word when asked about it. If there is no external evidence that a majority of gay women use "dyke" or support its use, I suggest modifying the article changing things like "most" and "often" to "many" and "sometimes." --Babcockd 11:51, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] origin

I'm deleting this, which seems frankly ridiculous: "The word may have originated from the Celtic language (the name, Boudicca, was that of a powerful queen). The use of the term bulldyke would seem to support this theory." I guess the idea is that "bulldyke" is somehow similar-sounding to "Boudicca", but there is no evidence that it's Celtic (it combines two English words) or that it's at all ancient, since it's first attested in the 1920s. Unless there is a source to be found for this, surely it's not appropriate here. Paul B 01:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

For the record, this etymology was suggested by Judy Grahn in her book Another Mother Tongue. I agree that it's very unlikely but it may be worth including as a popular association, even if just to debunk it. Another folk etymology was just added where the term derives from a Dutch story of someone plugging a hole in a dam wall (dyke) with their finger. Also highly unlikely (I reverted it for now). As far as I can tell though, no-one really knows where the word comes from. ntennis 01:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Another folk etymology was added to the article by an anonymous editor. I removed it here for now, as a google for aglodike and dyke revealed only this wikipedia article. I doubt there is anything to it:

Interestingly, the famous female greek physician Aglodike (Late 4th century BC) was known to dress in men's clothes, being that it was unacceptable for women to practice medicine. Aglodike was saved from execution by the women of her town, who loved her "caring touch" as a physician. Historians speculate that the word dyke may have originated from Aglodike.

Any of the three etymologies suggested above should go in a section called "folk etymology", if at all. While we're at it, I also found this on the internet:

"Another possibility is that the term derives from *dike* meaning "to overdress", "to wear fancy clothes", *diked out* has been used in the same way as *decked out* in the United States since the 1840's. Arguing both these theories is the fact that word appears first in the long term forms *bulldike* and *bulldyking*, both used in the 1920's by American blacks. No african antecedents have been found for the term, however which leads to the possibility that this is basically just another backcountry, barnyard word, perhaps a combination of *bull* and *dick*." ntennis 03:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture deletion

I deleted the childish link to pictures of people. This is obviously just an attempt to make fun of these girls. May 2006

[edit] Widely used in the UK?

Just a question: is this expression a widely used in the UK as it is in the US? What about the rest of the english-speaking world? Thanks for answering Michael