Talk:Dwarf planet

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For the discussion on developing a strategy for naming dwarf planet articles, please see Talk:Dwarf planet/Naming

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[edit] Lack of Clarity

Is a dwarf planet a planet that happens to be of type dwarf, or not a planet at all? For example, a berry is a fruit, but a fruit is not necessarily a berry; berry is just a subcategory of fruit. If it is not a planet, I a surprised there is no hyphen, because it dwarf looks to be an adjectives, and nothing more. It seems dwarf is a subcategory of planet, and this article does not explain this clearly, especially to lay people. Nonprof. Frinkus 20:41, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

"Dwarf planet" is that name of a type of solar system object. If the article doesn't say it's a subcategory of "planets", that's because that's not how it's defined. If it helps, think of it as one word that happens to have a space in the middle. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Is anyone else concerned that astronomers came up with the name 'dwarf planet' which is supposed to make things easier for the public and for schoolkids? Not only is it confusing to say that a dwarf planet is not a planet, but the name could make astronomers a laughing stock. Every smart ass kid in the classroom is going to say: 'Sir/Miss, dwarf planets, is that where dwarfs come from?' and all the kids will fall around laughing. Snow White and the seven Plutonians anyone? Somebody call Peter Jackson, his casting problems for The Hobbit (if it's ever made)are over - all he has to do is go to Pluto haha. It might well be a public relations disaster that would hold astronomers up to ridicule.

All joking aside, it is understandable that scientists like to have precedents for when they coin new terminology but 'dwarf planet' is not the answer. With all the talk of densities of rock and ice etc, the debate moved into the realms of geology and that is where the real precedents lie. Many terms in geology use the suffix 'ule' from Latin and Greek as a dimunitive. Here are some example- note that they have the relevant quality of roundness: Globe - globule; Sphere - spherule; Grain - granule; Node - nodule

Also of interest are some terms from biology. An 'ovule' is an unfertilised or undeveloped seed (from Latin ovum), and 'sporule' is a small spore. It may seem strange for astronomy to borrow from such a source, but with talk of stars being 'born and 'dying' etc, maybe it is not so strange.

How about 'planetule' to describe Pluto (?), Ceres et al. To the general public it would be easy to understand as meaning 'a very small or 'undeveloped' planet or planet like object'. It would square the circle of describing something that's like a planet, but doesn't make the grade to being a fully fledged one.

As to how to distinguish a planetule from a planet, that's another day's work, but at least it would solve the 'Snow White' problem!Neelmack 21:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)Neelmack

Is it good English to have two words work as one? With such an explanation, it probably would be difficult to get all school children to understand the precise difference between ‘planet’ and ‘dwarf planet’ and yet another possible contradiction in rules in English grammar. As for the science behind this (or severe lack thereof, real science is not a popularity contest and should not be determined by vote) ... “new planet definition that relegates Pluto to "dwarf planet" status is drawing intense criticism from astronomers. It appears likely that the definition will not be widely adopted by astronomers for everyday use, even though it is the International Astronomical Union's (IAU) official position.”. [from New Scientist Space] “"Alan Stern, who heads NASA's New Horizons mission to Pluto and works at the Southwest Research Institute in Boulder, Colorado, US, says the new definition is "awful". "The definition introduced is fundamentally flawed," he told New Scientist. "As a scientist, I'm embarrassed."”.

He goes on to say that only 4 of 8 objects in the IAU's new planetary definition meet their convoluted criteria (Earth and Jupiter for example, do not). He gives technical details for why that is. Another strong point was that “the new definition was pushed by people who are unhappy with having large numbers of planets” (very unscientific). All of that in addition that only astronomers were present, and less than 5% of the total IAU membership voted. Perhaps Richard Conn Henry likes to make a semantical (and only time will show how insignificant) victory to satisfy his own personal opinions.

So, given all of these numerous flaws, why does the main Pluto article now redefine Pluto as a ‘dwarf planet’ when frankly, I yet to see any real consensus (scientific or otherwise) nor any earth shattering supporting logic? Can I change that, or give both the title of ‘planet’ and ‘dwarf planet’ equal standing in all sections of that article?

Nonprof. Frinkus 08:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, first off, you should probably pose that question over at Talk:Pluto rather than here, seeing as how it involves changes to that article. Secondly, I don't think the article is "redefining" Pluto - the IAU redefined it. Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, bases its definitions of "planet" and "dwarf planet" on the decisions of the governing body for a particular field - in this case, the IAU. That doesn't mean that the article can't cover the controversy - in fact, that would be an important part of the coverage, and it is well represented. However, there is a real difference between writing about a controversy and participating in it. By doing what you propose, you would cross that line. (Just my two cents.) --Ckatz^chat_spy 09:34, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Me controversial … moohey, sorry about that.  :-) Almost all of what I wrote there, was sourced in the same flavour (albeit not exact word for word due to copywrite) is not original by me, so I did not realize I was participating in it. And you are correct, this does not belong here … one question led to another, and I am not sure how to properly transition stuff over.

Ummm, is there a Wikipedia policy that states that each section of subject matter has only one official governing body to make decisions, and that this encyclopædia must be in lock step with that organization for the official take? Some of the complaints of scientists I mentioned there, is the fact some governing bodies could be much more narrow than the community directly researching that type of subject matter as a whole. Unless there is some official policy stating that one organization will be anointed master of each subject matter for official takes … does not Wikipedia participate in the controversy as well (by choosing sides for who gets top billing, even though both sides of issue might be represented when some areas)?

Nonprof. Frinkus 20:07, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

If a Dwarf star is a Star, should not a dwarf planet be a planet?

[edit] Should this article explain why this definition is required?

Should this article on "Dwarf planet" explain the reasons why it is so important to have a separate definition for the term "Planet"? No where in this article does it seem to clearly justify the why this definition is so importantly required. Could I be wrong here? Nonprof. Frinkus 05:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archive

I archived the talk from September-October 2006. RandomCritic 12:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)