Talk:Dutch gulden
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[edit] Guilder vs Gulden
I have never heard this currency called "Gulden" in English. In everyday English use as well as in my ten years working in the foreign exchange markets, it has always been called the "Guilder". Its official ISO4217 name was "Netherlands Guilder". Likewise, ANG and AWG (and previously SRG) are called "Guilder" by ISO. For further proof, just compare the number of results of these two Google searches:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22netherlands+guilder%22 (114,000 hits)
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22netherlands+gulden%22 (1,700 hits)
Unless good reasons are presented why we should keep this Dutch spelling in an English language article, I propose to change the name of this article to "Netherlands Guilder". Nfh 08:56, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
- I agree (and I'm Dutch, if you mind). —Ruud 23:07, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- The Numismatics WikiProject is working on figuring out what currency pages should be called. If you'd like to participate in the discussion, please do. Until it's resolved there, please do not move this page. Thanks. Ingrid 00:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- There is no discussion going on on that page, but if we have articles about Finnish mark (not markka) and so on we ought to use the ordinary name for the guilder too. Guilder is pronounced ['gilder]; gulden is ['xulden] and hardly anyone who speaks English natively knows this. Oxford calls gulden a variant of guilder. So I've been bold and will follow through with cleanup. Evertype 20:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- In fact, it is Finnish mark that has to be changed to Finnish markka. Have you heard of "1000 Japanese yens"? If not, what's the logic behind it? --Chochopk 23:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Why? The English word is "mark". What's the plural supposed to be if we must use "markka" in English? "Markkas"? That's wrong. "Markat" is the nominative plural and "markkaa" the partitive plural used after numbers. The plural of "yen" seems to be irrelevant here. Evertype 23:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- My point is, it has been the consensus of the numismatic project that we use the local form of the unit, both in terms of spelling and grammar. It happens that some people take a long wiki break and the effort of implementing the naming convention has been slow. --Chochopk 23:58, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Guilder is the common English name for this currency and has been for centuries. Gylder and gilder are attested to 1547 in the OED, the only thing earlier is guldrens which is interesting (cf child, childer, and children) and which is attested to 1481. I think moving it to guilder was the right thing to do, cf ISO 4217 and Google and discussion above. Evertype 08:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Then every currency (and not limited to) listed on guilder must be changed. So is the text. I'm sure you're underway. --Chochopk 08:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I did all the redirects, and changed the text of the article, but as you can see Dove has reverted. This is a bit of a problem. Evertype 15:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Then every currency (and not limited to) listed on guilder must be changed. So is the text. I'm sure you're underway. --Chochopk 08:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Guilder is the common English name for this currency and has been for centuries. Gylder and gilder are attested to 1547 in the OED, the only thing earlier is guldrens which is interesting (cf child, childer, and children) and which is attested to 1481. I think moving it to guilder was the right thing to do, cf ISO 4217 and Google and discussion above. Evertype 08:12, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- My point is, it has been the consensus of the numismatic project that we use the local form of the unit, both in terms of spelling and grammar. It happens that some people take a long wiki break and the effort of implementing the naming convention has been slow. --Chochopk 23:58, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Why? The English word is "mark". What's the plural supposed to be if we must use "markka" in English? "Markkas"? That's wrong. "Markat" is the nominative plural and "markkaa" the partitive plural used after numbers. The plural of "yen" seems to be irrelevant here. Evertype 23:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- This is nonsense. The name of this currency was gulden, not guilder. We do not use English names but the local name. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics/Style for details. Dove1950 11:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- "Nonsense"? When the name of the currency has been "guilder" in English for five hundred years? When Google gives 114,000 hits for the English name and 1,700 for the Dutch one? It seems that a style guide should be a guide, not something to override people's intelligence. And unless you avoid transliteration from other scripts in to Latin, then you are not using local names for a great many scripts. I've left a note at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Numismatics/Style#Guilder_vs_gulden. Evertype 15:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Dove1950, according to Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics/Style, we should use the ISO 4217 name if it is available. The official ISO 4217 name of this currency was "Netherlands Guilder" right up until the currency ceased to exist in 2002. If we follow the style guide which you advocate, then we should rename the article to "Netherlands Guilder". I propose to do this shortly unless anyone can provide a very good reason why not. NFH 19:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'd be OK with that but (but "guilder" not "Guilder"!). I already did all the redirect articles to "Dutch guilder". Possibly this should be discussed at the Style guide page where I left the note above, so as not to piss people off. Evertype 19:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Although ISO 4217 uses upper case initial letters, I'm not bothered about upper or lower case. If you or anyone else want to go ahead and make the change, please go ahead - don't wait for me to do it. NFH 20:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'd be OK with that but (but "guilder" not "Guilder"!). I already did all the redirect articles to "Dutch guilder". Possibly this should be discussed at the Style guide page where I left the note above, so as not to piss people off. Evertype 19:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- Dove1950, according to Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics/Style, we should use the ISO 4217 name if it is available. The official ISO 4217 name of this currency was "Netherlands Guilder" right up until the currency ceased to exist in 2002. If we follow the style guide which you advocate, then we should rename the article to "Netherlands Guilder". I propose to do this shortly unless anyone can provide a very good reason why not. NFH 19:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- "Nonsense"? When the name of the currency has been "guilder" in English for five hundred years? When Google gives 114,000 hits for the English name and 1,700 for the Dutch one? It seems that a style guide should be a guide, not something to override people's intelligence. And unless you avoid transliteration from other scripts in to Latin, then you are not using local names for a great many scripts. I've left a note at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Numismatics/Style#Guilder_vs_gulden. Evertype 15:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- In fact, it is Finnish mark that has to be changed to Finnish markka. Have you heard of "1000 Japanese yens"? If not, what's the logic behind it? --Chochopk 23:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- There is no discussion going on on that page, but if we have articles about Finnish mark (not markka) and so on we ought to use the ordinary name for the guilder too. Guilder is pronounced ['gilder]; gulden is ['xulden] and hardly anyone who speaks English natively knows this. Oxford calls gulden a variant of guilder. So I've been bold and will follow through with cleanup. Evertype 20:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- The Numismatics WikiProject is working on figuring out what currency pages should be called. If you'd like to participate in the discussion, please do. Until it's resolved there, please do not move this page. Thanks. Ingrid 00:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Then such exception (and all exceptions) should be documented in the style guide. --Chochopk 20:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
- I'm afraid Evertype et al. are coming in at the end of a long debate on this matter. We established some months ago that we should use local names, even when ISO 4217 uses English names. You'll find the discussion in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numismatics/Style. Before you start hacking about with all the currency articles, make your case there.
Dove1950 22:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)- I read the archives. I don't see any particularly convincing discussion about linguistic choices as regards either guilder or ruble (vs gulden and рубль/rubl’). But I've taken the discussion to the Numismatics/Talk page. Evertype 23:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Date of replacement by the euro
This article states that
- The gulden [..] was the name of the currency [..] until 1999, when it was replaced by the euro (coins and notes were not introduced until 2002).
However, the article on the Euro states that
- It [the euro] was introduced to world financial markets in 1999 and launched as a currency in 2002.
(Emphasis in both is mine)
These two statements seem to contradict each other. Also, being Dutch myself, the Gulden did indeed remain the Dutch currency until 2002, not 1999, although the exchange rate between euro and gulden was fixed in 1999, iirc. Perhaps someone with access to the right sources can investigate.
- Unfortunately, there are certain Wikipedians (probably not European) who are convinced that the euro became the currency of the Netherlands, etc., in 1999 because of the wording of the legislation establishing the euro. Feel free to correct this article. Every time I try, someone reverts. Look at Irish pound and Italian lira for some attempted compromises.
Dove1950 17:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] symbol
Expert of Dutch matters, please help. Is the symbol ƒ before numbers or after? Is there a space between ƒ and the numbers or not? --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 08:40, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Symbol
I'm native Dutch, so to answer your questions: - The 'f' is always before numbers. - Usually and officialy there is no space between between the 'f' and the number (same as with the €-sign).
