Talk:Du gamla, Du fria

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I really think we need a major revision of the current translation. I will briefly outline my arguments below.

It's not a free, poetic translation, nor should it (in my opinion) be. As should be obvious from a quick look, there is no rhyme, and only a few lines adhere to metre. Trying to write a poetically good translation is difficult, and inevitably means sacrificing semantic accuracy. Attempts have been made (by anonymous editors) to get satisfactory rhythm (e.g. In beauty and peace our hearts beguiling), but these have completely sacrificed accurate translation. I see no need to go even further along this track.

Another, albeit less important, point is the use of "thou". While it is indeed (on a purely semantic level) the only form that precisely corresponds with Swedish "du", it has a rather formal tone, when used in modern English, that doesn't quite reflect the Swedish text. I think a more thought-for-thought approach (plain and simple "you") benefits a translation of this kind more. Opinions are welcome.

While on this topic, does Wikipedia have any official guidelines regarding translations of poetry? Skimming the history of this page, I feel that such guidelines would be rather helpful, so that everyone can work towards the same goal instead of moving the article back and forth between two camps.

I will probably do some revisions to this page soonish. --EldKatt 1 July 2005 14:05 (UTC)

"thou" [...] has a rather formal tone, when used in modern English, that doesn't quite reflect the Swedish text. I think a more thought-for-thought approach (plain and simple "you") benefits a translation of this kind more. Opinions are welcome.

EK, while I appreciate the constructiveness of your comments, I would not, myself, say that "thou" is out of place in an English-language rendition of the lyrics of a national anthem. Thou, in this context, is not so much "formal" (it is, after all, historically, the INFORMAL second-person singular pronoun!) as... dignified – and therefore entirely appropriate.

Leaving aside the fact that many might think that it would be "over-egging the pudding", the ideal from my point of view would be to have: definitely, a straightforward, "literal" translation; optionally, a "poetic" translation; plus, preferably (from my own wish-to-sing-along point of view!), a "free" metrical (i.e. fitting-the-tune singable) translation. Regarding the last desideratum, I think that Fred-Chess's contribution (below) from the Swedish Institute would be well worth adding to the article. -- Picapica 23:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Of course, you are right; "thou" is not formal, but it is (and this is, I suppose, what I intended to say originally) archaic. My objection was based in the notion that the tone of the Swedish text, as I see it, has no particular archaic qualities. When I think about it again, though, it may be that getting the point across that the singular is used is more important in a literal translation (at least one of encyclopedic value) than avoiding an archaic tone. As such, I believe I withdraw my remark.

Out of curiosity, how do you differentiate between your second and third kind of translation? Shouldn't a poetic translation worthy of its name be metrically equivalent to the original (and thus singable)? EldKatt (Talk) 21:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

You are right: the second kind of translation ("poetic" but unsingable) is eminently dispensable! There are a few horrors of this kind in some of the current national anthem articles, e.g.

Prosper, O country, in harmony unbreakable;

Be forever thyself and never servile,

True to the word that thou shouldst fearlessly declare:

For King, for Freedom, and for Justice.

Lots of "verse-speak": harmony unbreakable, thou shouldst, etc. But impossible, alas, to sing to the tune of the Belgian national anthem! --Picapica 20:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

---

Translation from Swedish Institute: http://www.sweden.se/upload/Sweden_se/english/music/The_Swedish_National_Anthem.pdf

Thou ancient, thou freeborn, thou mountainous North,
In beauty and peace our hearts beguiling,
I greet thee, thou loveliest land on the earth,
Thy sun, thy skies, thy verdant meadows smiling.
Thy sun, thy skies, thy verdant meadows smiling.

Thy throne rests on mem’ries from great days of yore,
When worldwide renown was valour’s guerdon.
I know to thy name thou art true as before.
Oh, I would live and I would die in Sweden,
Oh, I would live and I would die in Sweden.

Fred-Chess 08:32, August 29, 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 My translation 2 questions raised 3 Literal Translation 4 The addition 5 The translation 6 The name

[edit] My translation

I made a literal translation of the song's first two verses. Feel free to do whatever you like with it.

You old, you free, you mountainous north, You silent, you joyful beuaty! I greet you, the friendliest land on earth, Your sun, your sky, your meadows green

You throne on memories from ancient grand days when honoured your name flew over the earth I know that you are and remain what you were Yea, I want to live, I want to die in the North

Andelarion 21:38, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] questions raised

I found a recording of this anthem at the cylinder preservation project made by Arvid Asplund in 1905 entitled "Du gamla, du friska". The song is exactly the same except for this "friska". Is it just a missinterpretation by Arvid (since the song was quite new then) or does anyone else have an explantion for this?

here's the link: http://cylinders.library.ucsb.edu/search.php?queryType=@attr%201=1016&query=swedish&num=1&start=9&sortBy=&sortOrder=ia johan_h 21:12, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The original word was "friska", I've added that to the article. It should be possible to give a date for the change as well. I might look into that. -- Jao 21:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Literal Translation

I agree that the "poetic" translation is not what should be featured, and the use of "thou" and "thy" is awkward. I have swapped it for a literal translation and pasted the original here. I hope I have more accurately translated the lyrics without making it sound awkward in English (disregarding rhyme and metre).

Previous "poetic" translation for reference:

Thou ancient, thou free, thou mountainous North

In beauty and peace our hearts beguiling!

I greet thee, thou loveliest land on the earth

/:Thy sun, thy skies, thy meadows green:/

thy rest on the memories of the great days of yore

When all round the world thine name honoured was

I know that you are and you will be as you were

/:Oh, I would live and I would die in the North:/

Forever I shall serve thee my beloved country,

until death I owe thee my fidelity.

Thy right I will protect with mind and with hand,

/:thy banner, feats of bravery carry:/

With God I shall fight, for home and for bliss,

for Sweden, the dear fatherland.

For nothing, in the world, I would trade thee.

/: No, I would live and I would die in the North :/

--Marcoose 19:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The only issue I have with this is that a poetic translation close to the old one here is stated here to be the official English translation. I have no idea what they mean by this, as the song isn't even official. It would be nice to know who wrote that version, as it seems quite well done, and is reproduced throughout the web (both in that version, and in the various, obviously obfuscated, versions that have been featured here). However, we can't really have an unsourced poetic translation, that would be (a kind of) original research, or in the worst case a copyvio. And even if that translation were, properly sourced, to be included, I welcome the literal translation to accompany it. -- Jao 19:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Good point -- I wondered whether to leave the poetic version above and simply add an additional literal translation. In the end I thought it too confusing and cluttered to have three translations, especially when the poetic and literal don't match particularly well.

I followed your link and agree that there doesn't seem to be much proof of an "official" translation, but it does appear to be a de-facto just like the status of the song itself.

There is a reference to Wikipedia at the bottom of the page that leads here [1], and under Item 1, Subitem 2 it states "2) På susning bestämmer ägaren Lars Aronsson allt (vad som får skrivas, vem som får skriva, etc))" -- Lars Aronsson the site owner decides what goes on the site (what is official??). This doesn't make me too comfortable that the translation given is "official" although it seems well done.

--Marcoose 13:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Why was the previous attempt at a literal translation replaced with an attempt at a poetic translation? I feel the translation as of september fifth was getting quite good. Why was it replaced without any discussion? From where does the current translation come? If it is to remain, it should not be labeled a literal translation; it is far from it. --Odie

It is not to remain unless the editor who wants to put it there explains his actions, seeing as how we appear to have sort of a consensus. I've reverted. EldKatt (Talk) 15:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The addition

I think that the addition (verses 3 and 4) should be ommitted. Has any living person ever sung them? As is already mentioned in the article, they are not very official. The parodic "Du gamla, du fria, du smällfeta ko..." is of more interest, as it is widely known, and has been since my grandmother was young. Battra 00:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The translation

The translation as it stands now is incorrect. "Jag hälsar Dig, vänaste land uppå jord" does NOT mean "I greet You, friendliest land upon earth" but rather "I greet You, most beautiful land upon earth". (This is the adjective "vän" (=beautiful, lovely,..) , not the noun "vän" (=friend).) Battra 00:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The name

Maybe it should at least be mentioned that the title of the anthem is Sång till Norden (song of the North), and that "Du gamla, du fria" is the informal (though de facto) name?