Talk:Dosado

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[edit] Most common name, misspellings, mispronounciations

There appears to be some disagreement here as to how to approach the naming of this article, and how to put the right emphasis on the different spellings of what (I believe) amounts to the same dance move. It started as article name "Do-Sa-Do" and then was moved to "Dos-a-dos" (without discussion, and without explanation). I thought that was wrong, and I think the current name is wrong.

If these names refer to the same step, then based on Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) this article should be called "Dosado".

I did some Google searches. I restricted the results to English only as "dos-a-dos" has a widespread use in Spanish and possibly French that literally mean "back-to-back" (and not in a dance context). As is shown on the Dos-a-dos disamibguation page, the term "dos-a-dos" has quite a few meanings (and not in a dance context). Therefore I qualitifed the Google search results with a random sampling of the results to see how many of them were dance-related. I did this quick sampling by checking the hits 1-10 on pages 1, 4, and 7 of the results. My results are as follows:

Search on "dos-a-dos" (English only) - 3,890:hits c. 20% dance = 78 qualified hits

Search on "Dos-a-dos" "dance" (English only) - 1,170 hits unqualified

Search on "dosado" (English only) 8,320 c. 100% dance = 8,320 qualitifed hits

Search on "dosado" "dance" (English only) - 6,740 unqualified

Search on "Dos-a-dos" "polka": 138 hits

Search on "Dos-a-dos" "reel": 179 hits

Search on "Dosado" "polka": 80 hits

Search on "Dosado" "reel": 99 hits

I think this overwhelming shows that Dosado is the most commonly used term for this dance move. If no one has a compelling reason against it I will move this article (and redirect links to it) very shortly to the new name "Dosado". I would like to suggest that "dos-a-dos" remain in the article but as a secondary spelling used (perhaps) in contexts other than western square dancing, such as (perhaps) contradance, historical dances (I am not an expert on the use of dos-a-dos, so I prefer that others take that lead), etc. I would prefer that we did not end up with two articles "Dos-a-dos" and "Dosado" when we refer to the same move. I hope that we can have some discussion around this issue. Sfdan 17:37, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

The name is often mispronounced and misspelled as "dosey-do", "do-ce-do", "docey-do" or "do-si-do".

I believe that "do-si-do" is a common enough misspelling that it shouldn't be called a misspelling. It tops all of the other variant spellings listed in Sfdan's comment with 24.900 hits for "do-si-do" (English only) and 13,200 hits for "do-si-do" "dance" (also English only). "Do-si-do" also has on its side the OED (which actually prefers "do-se-do", and thinks "dos a dos" is a carriage or book binding) and Answers.com. Is there a reason this variant wasn't considered for the title? Loggie 21:14, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

You make some good points, Loggie, and I'd like to look a bit deeper into the Google counts before suggesting a solution. I'll do that a bit later today. Hope that's OK. Sfdan 06:35, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi Loggie, I went and checked the Goodle counts and you are right about "Do-si-do" getting significantly more hits than either of the two other spellings. Since I do not have an OED (and not likely to find one easily here in Denmark), I checked my old The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, and it listed "dos-a-dos" as the primary with "do-si-do" as a secondary spelling. ʘʘʘʘthis is so cool

In my opinion (and I will do this now), at the minimum we should move "do-si-do" out of the misspelled section up to the list of variant names, and remove all reference to mispronounciations.

As to what the article should be called-- following the most common name rule, I am persuaded that it should be "do-si-do" (even though with my background in modern western square dance I am personally bristling with the thought). I think it would be appropriate in the various dances where they use different spellings to use the spelling of their choice; the important thing is that they link to this article (whatever it ends up being called), and that we are clear at the top that all these different name variants are for the same dance step.

How do others feel about this? Sfdan 12:31, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm happy now. I do contra dancing, and have always assumed, based off the pronunciation, that it was spelled "do-si-do". Thus I was surprised to see the different spellings.

If we don't rename this page "do-si-do", I think we should make "do-si-do" a redirect page to here, since it is such a common spelling. The fact that this article has more redirect pages than actual articles linking to it might be a problem.

I really don't have a preference as to what happens now, since if I were to come to this page I would be able to quickly identify the Dosado to be what I know as a do-si-so. Loggie 14:03, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

Redirects are set up now for Do-si-do and Dosido.Sfdan 14:10, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Great! Loggie 14:43, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

I think in this particular case making google cout to judge the correct name is ridiculous. However many people misspell the word unknown to them does not make it right. I can reluctantly agree for "dosado", since americans always have upper head however ignorant and arrogant it is, but to say that "do-si-do" is the most correct name is outrageous. Obviously, ignoramuses who rule the internet now thought that this word is somehow related to notes do and si. Now let us go ahead and rename "epaulement" into "a-pullman", chasse into chase or shassey, chaînés into chains, and especially I am eager to see battement turned into batman. mikka (t) 19:28, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

However many people misspell the word may not make it right, but over time does not a language evolve? If everyone in a certain area uses the word 'duck' to mean someone a little odd, doesn't the word take on that connotation as well as the meaning of an animal that quacks? The word 'awful' has completely changed meanings over the years. It used to mean some thing magnificent, awe inspiring, something full of awe. Now it means something that is horrible, something that is bad. Does that mean that one definition only should be mentioned? I think, if it were in the Wikipedia, the progression of the word should be mentioned. Thus why shouldn't some of the variations in pronunciation and spelling be included?

I had never known that what I knew as a "do-si-do" or a "back to back" originally came from French and was originally called a "dos a dos". If the reason for my lack of knowledge stems from years of people progressively changing the pronunciation, is that my fault? Does that make me ignorant? Simply because I do not look up the etymology of each and every word I use is no reason to call me, or people like me who also misspell and mispronounce this word, ignorant.

You were pointed to the word and to the history of its long usage. Yet you prefer your ways. I am aware this is kind of potayto-potato thing. But the article is about a generic term, and I would expect some respect to other dancers who have precendence in usage. mikka (t) 03:31, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Because there will be people like me, and people like those ignoramuses who rule the internet now, I think it is useful to have the "do-si-do" variation mentioned, and have it be a re-direct page. (Especially since there seem to be a lot of us.) I did question why this version was not included in the discussion of possible titles, but I am not advocating yet another move of the page.

I am not against mentioning the usage. I am gainst making it main term. For hundreds of years in numerous dances it was dos-a-dos and lo! suddenly american square dancers rule. Well, that's life. mikka (t) 03:31, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

One last thing: I object to being called ignorant and arrogant simply because I was born in America. The OED was not born in America, and prefers yet another spelling that has not been discussed "Do-se-do", with "do-si-do" as an acceptable alternative. Loggie 02:54, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Don't take it personally. Disrespect to language is widespread, and not only among anglophones or americans. The same happens in French, Russian, etc. Some people really dislike this. I dislike it only mildly. mikka (t) 03:31, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

In Square Dancing it is Dosado in other things it is other spellings/pronounciations maybe somewhere in the article we can list which spellings are what activity because it is wrong to call it dosido in some places but just as wrong as dosado in others--Shimonnyman 03:13, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

There already is such section. It may be expanded. mikka (t) 03:31, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

In contra dancing in central Illinois, and in Cincinnati (the two places I have danced) it is called a "do-si-do". In English Country dancing in the same places it is called a "back to back". Loggie 03:21, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Revert folk dancing --> square dancing

I am reverting "It is probably the most well-known call in folk dancing" back to "It is probably the most well-known call in square dancing". Even though I am not a folk dancer (and that probably makes me a good judge of what "most people" would think of as a well-known dance move in folk dancing), I probably think that people who don't really know much about folk dancing would think first of a grapevine step, or a step-kick, or a hop-kick, or a run, indeed many other steps... I doubt that a back-to-back would be high on the list. Besides I didn't believe most folk dances are called!

If you want to include other dances in this sentence, for example, "It is probably the most well-known call in square dancing and contredance" or "It is probably the most well-known call in square dancing, contredanse and historical dancing", then I suggest be specific and say what you mean. I can't speak for these other dances, so I wrote it as square dancing, because the general public has a vague notion of the dance and has some ideas of some dance moves, and this is one that they know (at least in the USA and Canada). I have been to enough beginner classes that I can tell you many, many can (or at least think they can) Dosado without any instructions. And that is why there is a section on Dosado misconceptions also. Sfdan 14:03, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I see your point I just didn't want to be exclusionary as Dosado can be more than just Squares and this article reflects it later on though I suppose its probably most famous for squares anyways.--Shimonnyman 02:44, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Description - common to make one or more clockwise turns during dosado in contra dances

Does this belong in the basic description of the dosado, or does this belong in the styling section? I suppose for me the difference would be, does the basic description of the step in contra dancing (if there is such a thing) also include some statement that the person could make one or more clockwise turns if they wish. Or is this something that has developed on its own, is not standardised (if there is such a notion in contra dancing), and may or may not be more popular in this year, or in this area, or among certain dancers. I'm no expert on contra dancing (obviously!), so please help me out. Thanks. --SFDan 15:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The contra dance article seemed to answer my question by stating in the "Do-si-do" section, "As an embellishment, experienced dancers will often add a spin while performing this move." Therefore, I went ahead and moved the sentence with minor editing (and removal of an excessive link) from the "Description" section into the "Styling" section of this article. If there is any difference of opinion on this matter lets discuss it here. --SFDan 05:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)