Talk:Dorian

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Since the Dorians did not play the guitar (!) the 'guitar chord' terminology to refer to the Dorian mode seems rather out of place. I've changed it. Paul

Contents

[edit] Dorians and the "Dorian invasion"

These two articles essentially belong together at Dorian, supporting one another until some subsection is overwhelmingly complicated and might stand on its own, represented at the main article by a concise paragraph. Perhaps there are three subsections to the "Dorian invasions" part:

  1. "The Greek view"
  2. "Race and Historians: the 19th century view"
  3. "Archaeology and the modern view"

If you see other natural subdivisions, please insert them, and then let's get going with this interesting big article. --Wetman 06:45, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dorians and Dorus

Wetman: Yes your revision of my edit is better. Can you be more specific what you mean by "late mythology"? Also I don't quite know how to incorporate the notion that the common ancestry of the Dorians, Ionians, and Aetolians (all "descendants" of Hellen), is more than mere "mythology" and probably represents and the early beginnings of an ethnological theory. Paul August ☎ 20:14, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

According to a note in Kerenyi, The Heroes of the Greeks p 184, the Dorians recalled that three times Heracles had aided their "oldest king", Aigimios, "under whom they had not yet emigrated to the Peleponnesos." (Kerenyi). Kerenyi's source is Apollodorus (II.7.7), who though he is late, was working with ancient materials lost to us. Robert Graves (Greek Myths) in mentioning that Dorus and his brothers were fathered by Apollo on Phthia, gives Apollodorus as his source. All tribal groups have myths of an "original', whose name is the eponym of the tribe, a Danaus for the Danaans, etc. Even tribal eponyms in Genesis. The oldest ones are essentially eponyms of extended families, who are worshipped in archaic cults into Roman times; Walter Burkert, Greek Religion devotes a chapter VI.1.2 to "Clan and family mysteries". The important descendance, however, is from Heracles, well laid out here. The figure of "Dorus" is a back-formation, so I guess the first task is to demonstrate that back-formations do exist. --Wetman 20:59, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Dorian invasion and Doris

There is about the same evidence for the "Dorian Invasion" and the "Return of the Heracleidae". The distinction made in the present text is Mueller's dogmatism. Don't see how to fix it right now, but shall return Septentrionalis 18:16, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

If you'll leave Mūller aside, and concentrate instead on the theme of return of the Heracleidae as it is expressed in the written myths themselves, you'll really improve this article. --Wetman 19:06, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

I wish this suggestion had been noticed. The article as it stands still makes it sound like the Dorian invasion was a historical event, rather than a myth. It's particularly concerning that the sole source cited for any historical fact in the article is for a "tradition" in Sicily. The 1911 Britannica won't cut it, I'm afraid: at that time many people did actually believe in the actuality of a Dorian invasion, but that's not a reputable theory now. I'm adding a "Not verified" template, but the whole article needs reorganising to make clearer distinctions between myth and history. I may be able to do something about it sometime in the next couple of weeks, but I can't make any promises as it's not a topic I know a huge amount about. Petrouchka 16:50, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Passage on Arvanitic

Some rare writings [1] of another dialect (probably an Illyrian language or a Pelasgian one), which according to some researchers looks like modern Arvanitic language, have been discovered in ancient Corinth and Athens. There is no proof though that the people who spoke those dialects were Dorians.


I'm not sure this belongs here either; but I agree it belongs somewhere; so I'm adding it to this talkpage so it doesn't just disappear. Septentrionalis 20:29, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I think it was only put here in the first place because someone else had earlier tried to project a non-Hellenic Illyrian identity onto the Dorians, an assertion that was fairly quickly edited out. If it belongs anywhere, it's either Pelasgian or Arvanitic language, even if it is fairly well established that the latter derives from the same source as modern Tosk Albanian rather than an indigenous pre-Hellenic language.--Theathenae 08:09, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
"Fairly well established..." It's also "fairly well established" that Old English is a Germanic language. Alexander 007 07:48, 7 August 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Mythic origins

Dorian was also a sacret mage from the guild named rugcutters -

- Removed the above, seemed off-topic

Meersan 20:35, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambig

Dorian is a first name, where's the disambiguation?? Shandristhe azylean 19:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Dorian (disambiguation). There ya go! Fill 'er up! --Wetman 05:22, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
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