Talk:Dor Daim

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I deleted the story regarding the alleged persecution of one of the leaders of the Dor Daim because no source was given. - YM

• • Knowledge of this information (unjustified imprisonment of Rav Gafahh/Kapach and various other incidents of persecution, both past and present) is well known among the Dor Daim just as many things written about various other Jewish communities and issues written about on Wikipedia are assumed to be known and to which no sources are given. How specific of a source would you like? I'll try to get it to you. The issues surrounding the Dor Daim and their history can be learned from people who know it first hand - its members, including a number of the immediate students of Mori Yosef Gafahh [Kapach], the main student and grandson of Mori Yihhyeh El-Gafahh [Kapach]. Additionally you can find information from books published by Mechon Mishnat haRambam founded by Rav Rasson Arusi, chief Rabbi of Qriat Ono in Israel. I myself am aware of modern persecution from 1st hand experience - from stores owned by sympathizers of Dor Daim being threatened to be destroyed, to rejection of the children of parents who hold to perspectives either similar or exactly the same as Dor Daim being prevented from attending yeshivot on no other grounds apart from their perspective on reincarnation, Zohar, or some other aspect of innovations to Judaism.

-- from Jerusalem

Please do not delete the updated version of this article simply because of 'lack of references,' without first informing us as to what type of references you want. This article has been in great need of clarification and elaboration for a long time. I, the individual who updated the article to a large extent, am aware first hand of the two communities discussed in the article... both of which are almost impossible to discuss at all without discussing the other. I can provide almost any type of reference that one may request... I only hope that I get around to checking and replying to the discussion place before deletion takes place. Any minor editing or further clarification of this is fine so long as it is accurate, if there is anything important which one feels I have left out. I am merely tired of seeing important and sometimes essential information I've added to articles on topics of which I am well versed in deleted or removed without any explanation as to why. Thanks a lot. -- from Jerusalem

P.S. I now see something posted on the top of the article requesting clean up. If anyone wants to take a shot at better organizing the article go ahead. I don't know when I'll have time to put care into doing so... but I'll try to get around to it eventually if no one else does. Also, if anyone has the time, please check for spelling and grammer errors. I did not get around to doing this upon completing the article. There are still a few things I'ld like to see added to the article, but I ran out of time last night/this morning. Gotta jet.

if you want references as to the persecution of Rav Kapach just see 'Emunat Hashem' which was endorsed by the major Halachic scholars of the time and not only attacks the ideas and sysytem of the Dor Daim but also attempts to discredit and damage the character of their leader, Rav Yichie Kapach. the polemic against Rav Kapach goes on for many pages attacking ecery aspect of his life on a personal level. i think this readily available book is sufficient to show the persecution. as for the pesecution of his grandson who was not openly Dor Dea, but was assumed to be, information regarding his persecution is available in Hebrew at Yemenite books stores in Jerusalem and at chayas.com - T4H

o.k. if were gonna do this, let's do it properly. let's see the WHOLE story, or try to figure it out...for starters, i would like to discuss some of the halachot/customs discussed. there are in fact common practices that Dor Daim/Rambamists would view as being contrary to Talmudic rulings. HOWEVER, many are based on interpretation. unfortunately there are certain individuals who often assume (usually based on 'their' understanding of the Mishna Torah or 'hearsay'), that certain practices which have spread throughout Isreal are forbidden. in fact, after a closer look, and a deep, time consuming analysis, we see that in fact the customs often stem from a very 'intellectual', very liberal interpretation of the gemara and the commentators, which may or may not be valid. Machon Mamre for example, deems the manner of bowing used today as perfectly acceptable according to the rambam. since Machon Mamre is, for the time being, the top authority on Mishna Torah (in my humble opinion), it seems illogical to list bowing as something worth noting in our differences. furthermore, i have NEVER seen a Yemenite (Dor Dai or other)bow in the manner mentioned, and i have been praying with Dor Daim for nearly 3 years now. they may, in fact, prostrate themselves at home, but in shul they do like everyone else. so, they can't possibly see the standard bow as so terrible. i think that, perhaps, seperate categories should be given for Rambamists and Dor Daim despite their communal bonds (eating, learning, and praying together) in my opinion, the only difference between a Dor Dai and the average Orthodox Jew (apart from the Kabbalah) is how often their 'traditions' go against Halacha (truth is, common Dor Dai practices rarely go contrary to the halacha in the MT compared to other, more popular, denominations)... as we see, the Dor Daim may follow Rambam in theory, but when a Yemenite custom differs from what is codified in the MT, they normaly choose the Yemeite tradition, which is worth noting. in fact it is interesting that although Dor Dai teachings would classify a majority of Orthodox Jews as idolaters, they almost always live in exclusivly haredi neighbourhoods, and pray with those they consider heretic all week. this is a great topic, but a lot of work must be done in order to keep this objective and informative. T4H

• Who can disagree that work must be done to keep this [and all things] objective and informative. I largely increased the size of the article, mainly like a rought draft since I didn't have time to carefully edit it, because what was there previously was almost nothing. As for the fact that many things (not all things) which Dor Daim/talmedei haRambam consider to be against the Talmudic rulings may in reality not necessarily be against the Talmud, but merely very (sometimes VERY very) liberal interpretations, the things which I have added to this article so far was most importantly to show the perspective of most Dor Daim/talmedei haRambam, regardless of the truth of that perspective, or the fallecy of it. Clearly, every political group, religious group, and just about any other type of group, may or may not have totally valid perspectives -- but the articles about those groups are first of all to try to present what the perspectives of those groups are, regardless of the validity of their perspective. There are students of the Rambam, like myself and apparently the previous poster as well, who realize that some of the things many Dor Daim/Talmedei haRambam believe vast portions of Jews are doing are forbidden are in fact possible interpretations of the Talmudic texts, though in my opinion often very liberal possible interpretations; but even with this said, this doesn't negate what large portions of Dor Daim and students of the Rambam believe concerning such practices as being totally forbidden -- even if Dor Daim/talmedei haRambam are wrong in their views. And even with this said, there are certain things, though fewer things, which truly do not have any source in the Talmud(s) -- and some of these things (i would imagine) the average orthodox rabbi would admit. It could also be that those who consider certain things that most jews today do as being forbidden would still believe that those things are forbidden even if they were to realize that such practices are possible (often liberal) interpretations of the Talmud(s) -- their approach to the Talmudic interprtation may be that liberal interpretation of the Talmud(s) is itself totally forbidden, and therefore anything derived from such interpretation is thus forbidden. About BOWING, I don't why how you haven't seen at least a few people bow after 3 years of praying with them, but then again I've spoken to a Yemenite Jew who grew up in Israel and told me that he has never seen a Jewish woman covering her face in modesty -- when I have seen such a thing in Jerusalem alone at least about 20 times in the past few years -- and the woman was clearly Jewish (saw her either in a synagogue with other Jewish women, at a brit milah of yemenites, or walking with her husband -- clearly a jewish man, or with a child who had peyot and a kipah). Being that this particular Yemenite Jew who I spoke to grew up here and somehow never saw such a Jewish woman, it is certainly possible that someone might not have noticed or been at the right place at the right time to have seen a Dor Dai or a Rambamist bow during a time of only 3 years. I touched on what you said about how they may be bowing at home but you've never seen such a thing at shul (synagogue/beth kneseth). I wrote in the article, "It is hard to know the percentage of those who hold by the latter view being that most who accept such a view usually only do so in private or when praying among likeminded people. It is interesting to note that traditionally and even today Ashkenazi Jews bow similarly, though only during Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur." IF you want to see people bowing in such a way while praying with a minyan, you are sure to see such a thing if you pray with at Beth Midrash Ohal Mosha in Bet Shemesh. I myself have bowed in this way in many different synagogues, both in minyanim of haredi ashkenazim, sefaradim, and teimonim (yemenites)... though sometimes I do not do so either because of lack of room or because for some reason or another I find my heart beating too fast (b/c of anxiety) to the point that it worries me to do so. I can also say that I've spoken with Dor Daim who completely agree that one should prostrate in Tahhanun and bow to the knees on the floor in the Shemone Esra but who themselves (for whatever reason) seemingly never do so. Maybe it hurts their joints or something, in which case according to halakha in the Mishneh Torah they would not be required to bow. I also pointed out in the article, just as you brought up, that not all dor daim and Talmedei haRambam ("rambamists") agree on how to bow in the Shemoneh Esreh -- that they even sometimes have extreme opposite views. Concerning how to prostrate during Tahhanun (the time of supplication after the Shemoneh Esreh), practically all Dor Daim and talmidei haRambam agree that according to the plain halakha in the Talmud and as brought in the Mishneh Torah that prostration during Tahhanun is to be done starting off in some type of sitting position on the floor after which one "falls" (places) his face on the ground while making supplication. The only substantial disputes over prostration during Tahhanun concern whether one can place his face on the ground in any position after sitting, or whether one should always strive to do it with his hands and feet stretched out, or while laying slightly on his side and whether one sits on his knees or in some other way. The only issue at hand is that although they practically all agree that the above is the historical way the halakha was understand and also the halakha's plain meaning, there is disagreement whether one can get away with [bedi'eved] only placing his face on a table, knee, bench, or just leaning over close to the ground. All types of Yemenites (baladi, shami, etc..) traditionally bowed as described above, on the floor with the face to the ground, up until around 50 years ago. Only upon entering Israel and feeling the social pressures of being the only minority within Rabbninic Judaism which had preserved this tradition in daily prayer did the issue arise as to whether one can get away with just lowering the head down to something other than the floor after the fact (bedi'eved). The same principle holds true with the dramatic decrease in the observance of many other practices long perserved by Yemenite Jews for thousands of years.

One thing I would like to have elaborated on the article are some examples of some of the things many many Jews do which Dor Daim and many Talmedei haRambam consider not only to be not required practices, but even consider to be forbidden practices, such as kapparot, unnecessarily mispronuncation of Hebrew letters in Qriat Shma and Qriat Torah (for those who ARE able to pronounce the letters properly), etc...

About many Dor Daim praying with people who they believe to be apekorsim (apostates), the reason they do so is probably because, as it teaches in the Mishneh Torah, although a person may have heretical ideas, beliefs, or practices, this does not necessarily mean that they should be treated as a heretic when it comes to all things. In the Mishneh Torah it is written about the Karaites as an example, that although they reject the Oral Law and therefore from a Talmudic perspective have a heretical belief, we are to be kind to them and draw them close to us -- not to push them away and kill them off. The reasoning is that it was their ancestors who were the ones who conciously rebelled against oral law while knowing the truth of it at the same time; but their descendents, the karaites of today, although they inherited the heretical belief, they did not do so out of a rebellious spirit. I imagine that Dor Daim's fellowship with Jews who may have heretical beliefs is due to a related idea. It is not case, however, that all Dor Daim are Hareidi. Many are also kippot serugot (knitted kippa). - in Jerusalem

point taken, about this concerning their general beliefs and not what is actually right or wrong, within their beliefs. what should perhaps, also, be mentioned is that the term Dor Dai was originally derogatory. other Jews saw these non-kabbalistic, 'progressive' individuals going their own way and laughed at them saying, "you guys know something we don't ?", hence the term Dor Daim.this may explain why they do not wish to be reffered to as Dor daim. [can somebody confirm or deny this story pls...] another intersting factor would be to see who the leader/leaders of the movement are today. No one alive is willing to associate themselves publicly with the term or beliefs. hence, one could argue that the whole movement [as Rav Yichiye Kapach had intended it] is but a dying memory. even Rav Yosef Kapach and the current Rav Arusi never, ever, accepted to be labeled Dor Daim. furthermore, if Rav Kapach was truly a Dor Dai, wouldn't he have been a terrible hypocrite for adding numerous Kabbalistic texts to his siddur, which would in turn influence many generations of Yemenites. the arguements will be that otherwise his works would have never been published, constituting a great loss, ect... this is hardly an excuse, since it is clear that Rav Yichiye K would have never accepted these things. in fact, i think he would have been furious had he seen the siddurim the 'Dor Daim' daven from today, along with many other things they do . if reaching the masses was his excuse for adding kabbalah and intemediaries to his Siddur, why is it not acceptable for other Orthodox groups to let others believe what they belive, in the interest of the 'greater good'? i am certain, as his Siddur and his numerous references to the Zohar prove, that Rav Yosef Kapach was not the admant Dor Dai that many people today would like to believe. on the otherhand, his views were contoversial enough to land him in jail, but in the narrowminded Orthodox world of Yemen (just as Israel today), one would not have to go so far as the Dor Daim in order to be excommunicated. since Dor Daim are in fact a break off of the Baladi movement (their siddurs are labeled baladi, their bentching, ect...), then why not ask the chief Baladi Rabbis what the deal is ? the Rabbi most often associated to the movement is Rav Arusi, although i never heard him associate himself in any which way to Dor Daim. he classifies himself, quite simply, as a Baladi Jew. anyhow, since others seem to claim he is the Dor Dai 'leader'(this is due to the fact that Rav Yoseph Kapach, the previous assumed leader, appointed him to take his place), a serious individual would attempt to get a statement from him. otherwise, without a leader, without even a member who will openly classify himself, the movement is either so weak it is barely worth mentioning, or it may just be dream for some, to recreate what once existed in Yemen. my point is that what exists today is nothing like it was in Yemen, nor is it what the movement had intended to be at all. all we are left with is Baladim who believe in Zohar, those who don't and those in between (Maharitz), but there is no system or school in place to teach the Halachot Rav Yihiye Kapach spoke about, the system of learning he instituted, his philosophy and so on. in the meanwhile, at least the issue of Rambamists is supported openly by certain experts in Jewish Law (even if only a handfull) and the followers generally are more open about their beliefs, despite the huge amount of slack groups like Machon Mamre recieve for their open refusal to accept the norms of today. either way, you will not find a Dor Dai proudly exclaim publicly that he is a Dor Dai, or that he belives Orthodox Jews regualrly commit acts of idolatry (as one would be obligated to do, according to Positive Commandment #9, and the laws of rebuke mentioned by the Rambam in Hilchot Deot, if he were to truly believe what Dor daim belive. not to mention, logic neccesitating basic mercy for their fellow Jews who will not have a place in Olam Haba, according to them). originally Dor Daim burnt the Zohar and fought for what they believe in. now they have become apologists for the masses, and are generally more concerned about their communal and financial well being than spreading the truth as obligated (as noted in Milhamoth Hashem). otherwise, they would spread the word, therby certainly saving many Jews according to them. are Dor Daim more scared of other Jews than God ? or are they simply indifferent ? perhaps they just gave up ? it should be fundamental to see how such a 'force' emerged barely 100 years ago, and has already collapsed so quickly. why were they not capable of 'surviving' in Israel ? i would even go further and ask, "have true Dor Daim existed at all since Rav Yichyie Kapach and Yemen ?" a few families still strive to live by Rav Yihiye's system, but R.Yihiye had also intended for them to be zealous about it, and have schools - which would entail to stop hiding. the opponents of Rav Yihiye Kapach in Yemen posed a much greater threat than the Hasidim of today, yet Rav Kapach wrote his works, opened his schools, and taught his way of life, fearlessly. if we speak of current reality and not a theoretical set of beliefs, we see that Dor Daim only exist as 'ghosts' nowadays, at least in the public eye. furthermore, you liken the case of the Karaites to the case of davening with heretics. NOWHERE did the Rambam ever say that you could join a minyan of Karaites over by the 'shtiebelach'. it seems as though Dor Daim have succumbed to pressure from living in mainstream Orthodox communities and their actions tend to contradict their beliefs (even if it is a matter of 'survival', which in my opinion would be a silly claim - especially considering that there have never been any related cases of violence in Israel. if there were a case of violence it would dfinately get the word out, God forbid. yet, are there not plenty of missionaries and so on, who do their work in Jerusalem without being bothered by the Orthodox community ? so again, until there is a precedent, any fear seems to be nothing more than paranoia). T4H

i would like to know what the difference is between Dor Daim and other Baladi Jew s aside from Zohar/Milhamoth Hashem ? is there a different code of Law for Dor Daim ? what does the Dor Dai tradition consist of apart from Rav Yihye Kapach and his Milhamoth Hashem, as opposed to normal Baladi Jews ?

since this is the discusion page i will feel free to discuss ;-) the article speaks about the view of other Orthodox Jews towards Dor Daim and Rambamists (can't stand that term. is it an official label, or can the name still be changed ?) as heretics. this is true, however if rambamists don't 'reject' the Zohar - that is sufficient for many Orthodox Jews. point is, the Orthodox view on the weight of Zohar, and especially of the practical application of Lurianic Kabbalah varies greatly - as can be seen from the discussions of the Achronim. what often bothers people as much, if not more, is the Rambamist refusal to go by any particular Mesora. of course the mishna Torah is in of tself THE Mesora. almost any Orthodox rabbi, if confronted with the dilema, would rather his ashkenazi pupil hold by a temani mesora than strictly by the Rambam. and that says a lot, lol. i wonder what is worse for them - a Rambamist, without a 'mesora', who doesn't deny the Zohar but doesn't hold it as binding, or a Dor Dai who has a 'Baladi' mesora but denies the Zohar ??? let me ask you... if Dor Daim is a movement/denomination that is alive and well (and growing), we should be clear as to how they hold regarding Halachot. there should be standard Halachot and minhagim across the board. otherwise, forget the term Dor Dai and just say people who don't believe in the Zohar ;-) even if they are not readily available in texts, there should be a Mesora, or someone you can go to who says 'the practical halacha for Dor Daim is such and such...'. for example what is the Dor Dai view on folding a Tallith on Shabbat ? are there not different understandings of the Rambam amongst Dor Daim ? this does not really constitute a 'mesora'. it is especially problematic seeing as Dor Daim do not always follow the Rambam [see :R. Qafah Intro. to a book: rMb"M vs. Old Temeni Minhogim @chayas.com click on 'Article: life & works of Mori Qafahh zs"l / ou.org']. what defines a Dor dai today ? is anyone who holds by Baladi customs but doesn't accept the Zohar as binding a Dor Dai ? if one wanted to become a Dor Dai, where would he go ? what should he do ? supposing he can find someone to teach him proper understandings of the RMBM, which may or may not parallel Dor Dai beliefs, what does he do about customs ? how does he know what's acceptable and what's not according to Dor Daim ? is he safe if he just follows what's written in the RavKapach siddur ? we know the dangers of trying to follow the practical halacha according to ones own understanding of the MT, not that Rav Yihiye Kapach ever intended for anyone to learn MT without guidance. we also know that the MT is an inclusive system. like any other code of Law, one Law is dependant on another somewhere else. if we hold by the RMBM but make exceptions here and there, based on Baladi mesora, how do we know that the system still holds together (according to the RMBM) ? my final issue is the stance of the Dor Daim towards other Jews. you bring the example of Karaites stating that the goal of Dor Daim is to bring Jews 'back'. how do Dor Daim do this ? what is it about praying with minyans that one considers mostly 'heretic' that brings Jews back ? was this not forbidden according to the leaders of the movement ? is Dor Daim about burning Zohars (as was clearly the case in Yemen) or extremely passive resistance (as is the case today) ? who can tell us what the official stance is ? T4H

just saw the new updates. Kol HaKavod ! much better. need an editing job now. i'll look it over again, but i think the 'entry' is relatively accurate at this point. good job ! T4H

[edit] why is the post below being deleted ? it is the most relevant post on the whole discussion board ! this is THE source of Dor Dai philosophy... what could be more clear than seeing what the founder of the movement had to say ? if the goal of our article is to objectively present the views of Dor Daim, then erasing this post just defeats the entire purpose(unless your not pleased with my translation, in which case we can look at the original and make the neccessary corrections)

thought this might be of interest. a few selections from Milhamoth Hashem :

... those who know the truth and know what is proper, who constantly study the written Torah and the oral Torah, are afraid to speak up and to bring the complete truth to their lips, from fear of the deceitfulness always found on the lips of the ‘hassidim’. They are afraid lest they be attacked with threats of excommunication ‘by force and with a strong hand’ all of which is not the will of God or of those that fear Him... ...For reason of these threats, they are afraid to give themselves over to Sanctify the Name, for the sake of the Mighty and Omnipotent God whose judgements are in all the land. Have they shut their eyes to the actions of our forefathers who gave over their bodies and souls to sanctify the name of God. Remember that Abraham was thrown into Nimrod’s furnace and Daniel was thrown into the lion’s den. Remember the many Tzadikim and pious men mentioned in the Talmud and Medrashim who were prepared to die for Kedushat Hashem. Some of them were even killed because of the sin of their generation... ... it is certain that one must refrain from all their minhagim( customs, usages, ceremonial rites developed after the closing of the Talmud ) whether a leniency or a stringency and from all their nusakhot ( their versions of the prayers and their siddurim ) which were created in accordance with the Zohar and the kabbalists...Therefore let it be said to every person to whom the fear of God shines in his heart, that he distance himself from all these minhagim and new dinim derived from the new kabbalah. They only come to uproot and demolish the corner stone of the Holy Torah and break its pillars, for in all their prayers and blessings, when they mention the glorious Name, they place their intention on Zeir Anpin in association to the higher Partzufim above it. Yet it is not only these new minhagim which must be avoided. One must be careful about everything which is performed or made by them concerning all the commandments explained to us by the Sages, of blessed memory. Here are a few examples: a Sefer Torah, Tefillin or a Mezuza that were written by any Jew who is devoted to the new kabbalah is not valid because the Names of God written in them were written for the sake of another god, Zeir Anpin. All the names written in them are profane and may be burned. This is the law of the Poskim concerning a Sefer Torah, Tefillin, and Mezuzot written by a ‘min'. One must not eat from their slaughtering since, at the moment of slaughter, when the kabbalist mentions the Name in the blessing for shechita, his intention is on Zeir Anpin. If a kabbalist is leading a congregation in prayer, one must not answer Amen either to Kedusha or to Baruch Hashem Hamevorach... ...almost all those who read or study in the Zohar or in the books of individuals or groups who have inherited the chaos, have not understood their true intentions and have erroneously believed that they are all part of one Torah and one Law. ‘Israel has not known, my nation has not meditated’ that their real purpose was to institute a completely new oral law to replace the Mishnah and Talmud. Praised is the name of God who bestows on man knowledge and understanding, to perceive the truth of true words, and to shatter the visions of the impudent who would lift themselves up to establish their doctrines, causing by subterfuge and false-flattery many from among our nation to believe that the Lord, our God is not the Unique and Absolute One."

Lecha Dodi, meat, minyans,spreading the faith, ect... ???

T4H

after reading the above... what are we to make of the passage in our article which states: "Many members of the small and slowly growing Dor Dai community claim a fear of persecution and therefore maintain an almost secret existence."

Omedyashar 18:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move request

I have heard of "Dardaim" and of "Dor Deah", but never (outside this article) of "Dor Daim". (But then I only know what I have read, and have no first hand contacts with the movement.) Should we rename the article?

Also, do we think the article is now cleaned up enough for us to remove the marker at the head of the first page? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 16:23, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Some opponents of Dor Daim and/or similar perspectives call them Dardarim making a play on words by using a Hebrew word which implies degeneration, in order to turn the term Dor Dai into something derogatory - they have more or less succeeded.. consequently some have mixed the two in other ways making the term Dardaim. The way that the differences in these terms come about is more clear with knowledge of Hebrew -- and how some people pronounce Ayin distinctly from Alef -- where as others (most people in Israel) no longer make this distinction. I really do not think the article should be renamed. Those people who are Dor Daim say Dor Daim -- I know this first hand from many many encounters. I pray with them weekly. You should also know that they don't use this term all the time to discribe themselves -- and prefer not to use any particular term because they do not perceive themselves as a new movement or such, but rather more like guardians of pure Torah-Judaism (whether or not one agrees with their perspective, this is still how they view themselves). Omedyashar 23:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know who did it, but someone did an amazing cleanup/organization job. Awesome. HaShem yevorekh otkha/otakh. I don't see why the marker should remain now. Omedyashar 00:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I own the soft impeachment! Thanks for the elucidation, and for those kind words.

I'm not sure that I understand the bit about "such a view would make Jewish law un-objective". If you mean that Qafahh's view does this (for example, by creating too much uncertainty about what meat is kasher), the paragraph should read "because" rather than "though". If on the other hand it is the modern practice (e.g. of accepting such meat) that is un-objective (because Qafahh's view is logically right), we need to elucidate this.--Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 11:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It appears that there is no consensus to move this article to Dardaim, so I'm removing the request from Wikipedia:Requested moves. If I have read this discussion in error, please let me know, here or at my talk page. -GTBacchus^(talk) 05:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The request was mine, and I withdraw it. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 09:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Relations with other groups

We probably need separate articles on Yihhyah Qafahh (I have already started this as a stub), Maharitz and the Gaonists. I don't have the knowledge for any of these: can you have a go? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 11:24, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I added a little bit of information about Gaonists. I don't know enough about them to write a lot... and however small Dor Daim are in relation to Jews as a whole, I think Gaonists are even more so -- though I may be wrong. I only say so since I can count on one hand the amount of Gaonists I know personally -- I'm certain that there are more... but I don't know exactly how many. I may be speaking about them how the few mainstream American Reform or even Orthodox Jews who have met at least one Dor Dai may say regarding Dor Daim -- if he is the only person in his American community who is aware of Dor Daim, and he himself has only met one or two... then he may think there are only one or two in the world, lol. There are tons of Jews who are totally unaware of Dor Daim or any similar type of group. Since I'm actually affilated with such groups (plural) I know without doubt that the number is not so drastically small. Unfortunately I'm not so aquainted with Gaonists.. Hopefully next time I meet one of the few who I am aware of I'll ask him his estimation.

I am aware of a small bet knesset that meets in Givat Shaul in Jerusalem that more or less follows Talmud Yerushalmi over Talmud Bavli -- and who also make great use of the writings of the Geonim -- but I don't think the term Gaonist accurately applies to them... I do think, however, that these Talmud Yerushalmi followers would be included among what some call Meqoriim. I wonder if any Romaniote Jews are aware of this bet knesset... I am pretty sure that its members are not Romaniote.

Thanks again for the information. I hadn't heard of "Gaonists" before, and thought they were another name for followers of the Vilna Gaon ... how wrong one can be. Having read your explanation, I've tried to clarify the article.

As I understand, Romaniotes happen to incorporate some Eretz Yisrael usages in their prayer book, in the same way as the Italians; just as a few such usages have crept into the Ashkenazi rite, and a few others into the Sephardi rite. I don't think they give higher authority to Yerushalmi in principle, in the way the Kairouan community did before Pirkoi ben Bavoi and Hananel ben Hushiel. In general law they have pretty much adopted the views of the Greek Sephardim.

I would like your views on another question, which is certainly controversial, and I thought long and hard before mentioning it at all: I don't want to offend anyone. I have noticed that occasionally views heard in Kahanist quarters rely on "Rambamist"-sounding arguments (for example, when they advocate the possibility of restoring the Temple and the full theocratic state without waiting for geulah). Do Dor Daim and talmide ha-Rambam go along with any of this, or is this confined to a few hilltop settlers calling themselves by this name and with little connection with the real thing? Or are they found all over the political spectrum, like the followers of the Vilna Gaon? Is it worth mentioning in the article, or would it be an invitation to vandalism? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 19:35, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I only recently learned of Romaniotes, and from just two sources: first from the JPost, and 2nd from the Wikipedia article on them. As for the possibility of restoring the Temple and the full theocratic state without waiting for the geulah, ... it's hard to answer this question because the Temple being rebuilt and the reestablishment of a theocratic Torah/halakhic state is a major part of the geulah... it would vary well indicate that the geulah is actually happening or is very much just 'around the corner.' At least according to to the Mishneh Torah, there is no absolute necessity for Moshiahh to have come in order for us to rebuilt the Temple and reestablish the Sanhedrin -- there are particular laws that must be properly fulfilled, of course. As far as I'm aware these laws are only fully codified in the Mishneh Torah -- and the Shulhhan Arukh and Mishna Brurah completely exclude them. To answer your question in short -- not only is this opinion shared with Dor Daim and talmide haRambam, but -- as far as I know -- it is shared with practically every community/group and rabbi who take the perspective that midrash cannot outweigh or nullify halakha. This doesn't mean all (or even most) Dor Daim and talmide haRambam are Kahanists... as you seemed careful not to imply. Certainly some fall into that category -- but I'm convinced that it is certainly not most. I think a large difference between the two groups is over the matter of the limits of military or violent force that is permitted in the current situation... Dor Daim and talmide haRambam tend to take a much more strict approach regarding this than Kahanists appear to. It appears in the Mishneh Torah that any military activities --unless it is an absolute necessity to protect life-- are only permitted under the government of a Sanhedrin, together with a few other qualifications specified in hilkhot Melakhim u'Milhhamotheham in the Mishneh Torah. Omedyashar 22:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Funny. Just after I had written that about Romaniotes, there was an article about them in the Jewish Chronicle! This does seem to imply that they remained independent of the Babylonian academies for much longer than most other groups: what I said about their following the Sephardim related to the period from the sixteenth century on, when the single Romaniote synagogue in Salonica came under the authority of the Sephardic Chief Rabbi there (together with the Ashkenazi synagogue and the twenty-odd regional Sephardi ones). I think the point is that it is one thing to inherit some Eretz Yisrael customs in your traditional observances, and another to adopt Talmud Yerushalmi in preference to Bavli on ideological grounds.

There is a lot to say about the issue of the Temple and theocratic state, either in relation to Mishneh Torah or generally; but that would turn this page into a discussion forum instead of an encyclopedic article. Do we need one line in the article on the question of Kahanism? --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:28, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I personally don't think there needs to be -- but someone else may disagree. From my observation I don't think there is any predominant portion of Dor Daim who are Kahanist... though there are many Dor Daim who are just as much in favor of offically reestablishing the Sanhedrin as the governing authority in the Land... but this isn't anything particular to Kahanists. There are a large portion of Dor Daim who very much affiliate with Haredim in general, as well as a large portion of Dor Daim who are kipot serugot... To me this is very interesting, and nice. One of the things I most love about praying in synagogues affiliated with Dor Daim is that there is often a good (and usually fairly equal) mix of black kippot and knitted kipot with the two "groups" praying and discussing as one. Omedyashar 16:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that this article is trying to be the primary source on talmide ha-Rambam as well as on Dor Daim. So yes, Dor Daim are a type of talmide ha-Rambam. Yes also, some Kahanists would also describe themselves as talmide ha-Rambam (Binyamin K's article on the mosques on Temple Mount; Baruch Goldstein's "I recognise only two authorities: Maimonides and Kahane!"). So probably there is no point in mentioning Kahanists in an article on Dor Daim (it is a sfek safeka, Anglice "a link too far"); but if the primary subject of the article were talmide ha-Rambam in general it might need to be mentioned. (There also seems to be a Kahanist/Vilna Gaon crossover, e.g. (perhaps) the Aderet Eliyahu yeshivah in the Old City, but that too is a link too far for this article.) I think we are agreed. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 17:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I see your point and just as you think, I do agree. [I'm also curious how you are related to these small almost unknown communities (apart from the not so unknown kahana crowd).] I think that one of the main things all of these groups have in common in distinction to practically all other groups within 'Orthodoxy' is that these groups all agree, each in their own way but still with some points in common, that even 'Orthodox' Judaism more or less in general is off focus and mislead to a certain degree or in regard to particular points; Each of these groups also tend to emphasize the authority of historically accepted Talmudic texts and writings of the Geonim (in contrast to later texts that were previously 'hidden' and eventually 'revealed' around the Middle Ages). This is even the case with Aderet Eliyahu, even though they are completely for learning Ramchal -- But they tend to try to apply the Talmudic method of learning such things more so than most other communities... as well as they seem to behave as though they are less bound to long held practices among their ancestors if such practices are discovered to have been by mistake or in contradiction to Talmudic teaching -- according to their own understandings, of course. They also tend to be less rejecting than others towards talmide haRambam -- I know this personally from the experience of more than one individual. I personally don't know how we could include a proper amount of info on all of these groups in one article... Maybe we could at least get info on Dor Daim, Talmide haRambam in general, and how some Kahanists are related to one or both of the previous to all under one article titled something like Maimonideans or something. I dunno. Certainly there are others on Wikipedia who have much more experience than I in this field. Best wishes. 88.155.48.153 16:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no personal relations with any of these groups, except for the Spanish and Portuguese: I just read a lot. None of the other groups exist here in London: the only Yemenite community I know here is Adeni (Shami). (And as you will gather, I hadn't even heard of Gaonists etc. until you told me about them.) I have basically been working from what was already on the page or the talk page, plus the www.chayas website, plus my knowledge of general Judaism. Still, I think between us we have done a pretty good job!

If you have a friend who can do a separate article on Gaonists and meqoriim, fine. I think we leave Kahanists out of this, unless we want to insert a reference in the Kahanism article. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 21:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The issue of Ramchal is pretty complicated. I see him as one-third Kabbalist, one-third Italian Neoplatonist and one-third Paduan Averroist, and it is this last facet that is relevant to his works on Talmudic logic. There is therefore nothing to stop Talmudic purists of any shade from using these works, however dubious they may be about his Kabbalistic and Messianic pretensions. I only know of Aderet Eliyahu by hearsay from the odd blog, and would be interested to have more reliable information. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 10:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)