Talk:Doctors' plot

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I have nothing against the Poles but why is this link relevant here: Polish minority in Soviet Union? --Humus sapiens|Talk 23:27, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Pasted discussion from my talk page 2 Mistranslation 3 Removed this clause from first paragraph 4 Similarity with earlier trial 5 Possible deaths

[edit] Pasted discussion from my talk page

Link to Polish minority shows that Stalin intended to do with Jews in 1953 the same what he actually has done with Poles 20 years before. What can make you possibly to add a new article History of anti-Polonism. As far as I am concerned Poles earned bitter enemies the moment they become a nation. First chronic writer Thietmar clearly suffered from anti-Polonism. Any association with your History of Anti-Semitism? Cautious 22:14, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

Go ahead, create it if you feel it deserves to be in an encyclopedia. I am against ANY persecutions based on ethnic/religious grounds. Regarding the Doctors' plot, there was nothing specific about Poles there, correct? --Humus sapiens|Talk 22:39, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

I see that any discussion with you must be done open text: I think your concept of Roman anti-Semitism is equaly non-sense to concept of Thietmar anti-Polonism. More over, Stalin alleged anti-Semitism is also non-sense. Jews, Poles and Russians served the monster, the only difference was that Jews had a chance to serve Stalin for 20 years more then Poles. (I hope you understand, that the people Stalin intended to be victims of the purges were involved in the Stalin crimes before. Of course, Stalin punished always family members and members of ethnic groups, who were mostly innocent) If there is no link to Poland in Doctor's plot it must have been mistake. In 1953 Poland was ruled by the group of mostly Jewish communists. The plan was to replace them with ethnic Polish communists and make Stalin liberator of Poland again. Jewish communists resorted to play with liberal communism on condition nobody would be punished for Stalin-time crimes. This should be clearly linked with Doctor's plot. Cautious 22:57, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

Fascinating conspiracy theory. If you so insist, name some Poles linked to the Doc's plot. --Humus sapiens|Talk 00:47, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Republic_of_Poland

"The Polish Communists were divided into two informal factions, named "Natolin" and "Pulawy" after governmental building (Palace of Natolin near Warsaw) and Pulawska street in Warsaw where they had their meetings. Natolin consisted previously of ethnic Poles of peasant origin and had a nationalist tendency of a peculiar Communist sort. Pulawy included Jewish Communists as well as old communist intelligentsia and after 1956 was more liberal." (...) "Gomulka returned to the Party leadership in October 1956, after some tough bargaining with Khrushchev, who came to Warsaw to oversee the transfer of power. Hardline Stalinists such as Berman were removed from power, but almost no-one was put on trial for the crimes of the Bierut period. The Pulawy faction argued that mass trials of Stalin era criminals, most of them of Jewish origins, would incite animosity against Jews. Rokossovski and other Soviet advisors were sent home, and Polish Communism took on a more independent orientation. But Gomulka knew that the Soviets would never allow Poland to leave the Soviet orbit, because of its strategic position between the Soviet Union and Germany. He agreed that Soviet troops could remain in Poland, and that no overt anti-Soviet outbursts would be allowed. In this way Poland avoided the risk of the kind of Soviet armed intervention that crushed the revolution in Hungary in the same month. " http://www.columbia.edu/cu/sipa/REGIONAL/ECE/gluchowski.pdf (Go and see what Berman said May 5, 1956 about Popov actions in 1953!) The classical book was "Chamy i Zydy" by Witold Jedlicki Cautious 07:58, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, maybe I'll have more time to read it later. So far I don't see any relation to the subject. Do you have a solid answer to my question above, other than Stalin didn't like the Jews, but he also didn't like the Poles? --Humus sapiens|Talk 09:04, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Read the pdf, you will find a plenty of relations. Do you think, that Doctor's plot was supposed to limit itself to SU? Do you think, when Stalin planned the Doctor's plot? My guess, 1945. To answer your question: Stalin worked with Polish communists 26-38, 12 years. Stalin worked with Jewish communists 26-53, 27 years. Do you still claim that Stalin didn't like them? He liked them when it suite his cause. Cautious 09:21, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Anything more specific than "read the pdf"?

1. Stalin was in the business way before 1926.
2. he killed whomever he wanted to before 1941. Same with population transfer. I suspect you don't realize the amount of power he had.
3. there is plenty of evidence of A-S in his private life.
4. if he planned it all in 45, why did he vote for the establishment of the State of Israel two years later?

Your conspiracy theories were proven wrong far too many times. I'm going to move this discussion to the talk:DP page. Objections? --Humus sapiens|Talk 17:53, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Mistranslation

"Every Jew is a nationalist and potential agent of the American intelligence"

- Stalin did not actually say this. This is a mistranslation, and should read "Every Zionist is a nationalist, etc." --Charm Quark 21:28, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

You are wrong: here's a proof [1]. I do remember I used some Russian language source, will try to recall which one. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 22:20, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

You both are wrong. Stalin used the expression "evrei-natsionalisty" - "Jewish nationalists". The main difference is that he did not claim that every Jew is a nationalist.--85.140.130.68 20:24, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed this clause from first paragraph

"and the State of Israel allying with the West"

This has no relevance to the situation of 1948 -- in the late 1940's, the Soviet Union strongly supported the coming into existence of Israel (in order to diminish British influence in the mideast, rather than out of any sympathy with Jewish aspirations, it's true), and the Soviet-Arab aligment didn't really exist until a few years into the 1950's. Similarly, Israel couldn't be said to have "allied with the West" in any very meaningful sense until the mid-50's or so (in the late 1940's, Israel actually got most of its heavy arms from Czechoslovakia!). AnonMoos 13:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Let's make this chronological: the USSR supported the establishment of Israel and the Soviet WW2 weapons were supplied via Czechoslovakia (to dodge the embargo). By the end of 1948, the USSR switched sides and aligned with the Arabs against Israel. I wasn't there but I remember reading Paul Johnson and others (including post-Soviet historians) about this. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 01:21, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

"Switch sides" would probably be too dramatic if you're confining yourself to 1948. It seems to me that Stalin was pretty much flailing around trying to do whatever would most diminish British influence, but he wasn't yet entirely sure what that was (and perhaps hadn't yet fully grasped that the US was now the main opponent). I don't think there was a real steady Soviet-Arab alliance until the period of the Bandung Conference, the wrangling over the sponsorship of the Aswan dam, the run-up to the Suez crisis, the ruckus over the Baghdad Pact, etc. AnonMoos 12:52, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Similarity with earlier trial

There was a large doctors' component in the 1938 phoney trial in Moscow. The 1938 trial was the last one in Moscow before 1953. Stalin regarded the 1938 trial as a success. He probably wanted to duplicate this success. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.74.1.27 (talk • contribs).

Please see WP:OR and WP:RS. I find the statement above dubious. E.g. The 1938 trial was the last one in Moscow before 1953 doesn't seem to be true (there were show trials, secret tribunals, etc). BTW, all Stalinist trials were successful, and the cases where the accused asked for death sentence were not uncommon. Oh, and the DP never got to the trial phase. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 08:53, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible deaths

 One or two doctors were not released after Stalin's death as they seem to have died

under torture.