Talk:Divje Babe

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[edit] Neutrality

Sorry, but I'm very suspicious of the risk that this article, being largely written by a strong proponent of the flute interpretation, gives undue weight to that interpretation. For instance, Summary of probability analysis isn't a summary - it's an extensive exposition of the contents of one 'pro' paper, where the 'anti' papers get a small paragraph each.

See also Wikipedia:Autobiography: "Creating or editing an article about yourself, your business, your publications, or any of your own achievements is strongly discouraged". Tearlach 18:51, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

--

As we wrote above: We thought articles by scholars about their work was permitted. Finding out we were wrong, we took Fink's data and rewrote the article. We removed every partisan remark Fink had in it, and relied only on factual content. We gave full weight to his critics by making sure we didn't "load" the dice against them. We could have written several sentences of formulas and math, but we wanted to make this analysis understandable to at least highschool students as well as other scholars. We can assure you that ALL the literature available on the subject is in our possession, studied and all the quotes and references are accurate. Furthermore, the "summary" is still far shorter than the mathematical set-up and discussion that can be located on our musicolgy website as well as in the "Studies In Music Archaeology III" conference proceedings.

The publisher of those proceedings is a noted publisher of world archaeology papers and international gatherings of scholars for years. They invited Fink to rebut those who believed the bone was made by accident.

What exactly do you want? Is your suspicion founded on any specifics we can rectify? We'll comply to whatever you require to feel assured. Give us a word limit if we're too wordy for you. But we cannot quote the entirelty of the critics of Fink's views or their illustrations without infringing their copyrights. (BTW, one of "their" illustration ideas was "borrowed" without credit or permission from Fink's book, which we proved at http://www.greenwych.ca/paypiper.htm ) If I was you, I'd be suspicious of them, not us.

Shouldn't it be up to them to submit their work, or edit what we wrote if it is wrong or biased. Who else do you expect will write about this topic you say is worth an article?

Fink has written reams about the matter since 1997, been published world-wide about it, including covers of magazines and journals: see http://www.greenwych.ca/reviews.htm. Fink served as a juror for Nature journal on ancient music, and is qualified. The others have retreated into silence after having written probably no more than 40 pages on the subject taken all together. Their earlier reputations carry the day for them, but their silence on the issues about the bone that to this day they refuse to address should not weigh more than those who do address the issues, we would hope. Finally, here's a quote that may help allay your suspicions from the editor, along with others, of the anthology published by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology Press in 2000 "On the Origins of Music."

Bjorn Merker wrote a few years ago in a letter to Fink:

Bob:

...I have not seen your argument against d'Errico - I guess that's the publication in Antiquity arguing against the "flute" on the basis of thousands of bones, some with holes in them, yes?

I read it and was appalled at the bias that pervaded their write-up (and wrote Turk about it). Their bone collection convinced me in favor of Turk, because the one thing they maintain studious silence about is the linear arrangement of the holes - they do not have a single bone among those thousands which comes even close to the striking linear alignment of Turk's holes (I gather from what you say that this is part of your argument against them), and not to discuss this central and crucial issue is just bad scholarship and bad science.

But {there are} academic theories about the status of Neanderthals...at stake, and so they fight with the fury of theologians... The strange thing about science is that it progresses despite the biasses of its practitioners, but that can be a long process in which lives are ruined along the way....

B.M. 1/9/2000 Sweden

All you need do is check out the links we provided to know we are not falsifying anything. If the facts we are posting seem to make the critics look wrong to you, it would seem to us that the truth of the facts are alll that need confirming. Let the chips fall where they may if Fink's critics still look wrong, wouldn't you agree? Read the last paragraph of the article quoting Nowell and Chase, who are Fink's critics. They raise the importance of "probability."

Did we make a mistake in the math? Do you want a photo instead of a drawing of the object? Tell us how the story of this debate gets told in Wikipedia, please?

Best wishes, For Greenwich Publ.,

Terry Geebe and others volunteers here. green@webster.sk.ca

Okay.

We have gotten more help, I'm not a great writer anyway -- and we very considerably reduced the material on the probability analysis.

It's not our fault that Nowell, Chase, d'Errico et al, all wrote very little in the past seven years on the matter. About half of what they published are photographs and drawings, and almost all of the photos are of other bones and flutes, rather than of the Divje Babe flute. The ones that were relevant were placed in the Antiquity article by d'Errico to show that there are single or perhaps two holes bitten in some bones only by carnivores -- which looked something like the circular holes in Divje Babe. After 4 short pages of that, everyone gets the point, and no one denies the holes look alike anyway.

The big violation of logic for Prof. Blackwell, Ivan Turk et al, and all those who search for answers, is that d'Errico published without ever personally examining the Divje Babe bone -- unless Professor Turk is a liar. He did look at it later, but long after publishing. And d'Errico concluded that if the holes look alike, then the "flute's" circular holes must be made by chance bites too. Really. A reverse conclusion could be made with just as much logic, wouldn't you think? -- that the bones d'Errico saw maybe were not made by carnivores after all, because the holes Neanderthals made in the Divje Babe flute looked like HIS collection of bones-holes? I've learned a lot about this stuff in the past few days that surprises me.

As for Nowell, most of her and Chase's scant several pages of text midst pics of other bones and flutes said *nothing* that Fink, Turk, Blackwell, Otte and many others, would disagree with anyway! So what's to quote from them?

So should we make up stuff to quote "equal amounts" of it from them? -- Or suppress our own views to match their silence and lack of inquiry? Many people are "mathophobes" -- so when one writes math in the form of words so it's easier to understand, one must use lots more words. But -- we edited them down. Hope it's good enough to save the article. But "probability" IS the issue, and someone did publiush a study we want read. Why else would anyone write anything?

There is no one else who follows this matter who has the intimate familiarity with all the literature that all the participants have. So either one of the debating participants writes the article, or NO ONE will. So do you want it or not? This issue may turn out very important in the history of human evolution.

You decide if you want a blank Divje page. The critics of Turk have withdrawn from the issue for years because perhaps they realize they made a mistake and haven't the moxy to face up to the math they should have done themselves. But why should research findings be quashed because they won't deal with them? Is that how they silence us -- with no ideas offered at all?

As to fact, almost every significant claim written there is referenced to some reputable source, book, webpage, comment, or testable reasoning (like the math). If there is still unfairness suspected -- one has to find something specific to offer as to what's unfair now. We don't think any paragraph has any factual errors in it.

  Regards, 
  Sorry for the wordiness, but I'd hate to see our 
  many hours of work go dowen the tubes.
  For Greenwich,
  Terry
I'm a trifle busy at the moment, but can get on to some specifics next week. But the main problem is that it's just a bad dynamic, proven many times over here, to have a topic written by a person or company with an investment in promoting one viewpoint. Even with the best of intentions, people are rotten at writing about their own (figurative) babies objectively.
I suggest, again, following the advice of Wikipedia:Autobiography#Creating an article about yourself. The topic exists - sooner or later others will edit it. The advice at Wikipedia:Spam#How not to be a spammer is also helpful. Tearlach 11:58, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

--

Thanks for the reply. Terry has gone back home now, but a few of us remain and have learned a little about how your system works. We are likely to close down as publishers when our remaining stock sells out (not much money in this niche publishing area any more). We have nothing to gain or sell using Wikipedia. We only want the literature that exists to be summarized accurately and understandably.

We await any specifics in your concerns as we dearly wish to be as fair as possible, and will act on your suggestions. We can supply reputable verification for virtually any item that concerns you. Some people are searching the literature for more material to provide from those views you feel did not get enough exposure. Everything in this subject's literature (books from Turk & Fink, but very little from their critics) is in writing, and so accuracy can be assured by using participant's own words. We will guard against "picking & choosing" or quoting out of context, but we hope the other participants producing the literature involved will edit and contribute more, themselves.

At present there are 3,210 words in the whole article. The "pro-flute" material has 33% of the article, mostly direct quotes, and their sources. The "Carnivore-Origin" view is now greater with 43% of the article -- almost all direct quotes from the literature and their sources. Descriptive or "agreed upon material," without dispute, takes up 24%.

Individuals: Nowell and Chase are 12%, and d'Errico et al occupy 31% of the article, directly quoting their published work & soureces. Fink has 16% and Turk and other miscellaneous "pro-flute" views use 17% of the article, describing or direct-quoting from their published work.

If you have no further specific items of non-neutrality, please remove your tag?

-- Thank you for your time and reply -- Candace

I sketched a note or two, but on reflection, the specifics aren't important. You're not grasping the central issue: the very fact of your producing the bulk of the article is problematical.
Read Wikipedia:Autobiography#Creating an article about yourself again.
"Creating or editing an article about yourself, your business, your publications, or any of your own achievements is strongly discouraged ... Similar principles apply to articles about works that you are primarily responsible for — the company you run, the website you started, the book you wrote; any possible conflict of interest".
Which bit of that don't you understand? I'm taking a break (new job), and am leaving it to Cleanup. Tearlach 01:01, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


To Tearlach: Since you seem to be addressing me (Bob Fink), I'll respond personally.

I didn't create the "Divje_Babe" page. The page was already there, but mostly empty, when I came on the scene. And, the article is not about myself, my business, my accomplishments, my publications or my books nor about Greenwich or its supporters. The article is about the Divje Babe bone, and the pros and cons in the published, verifiable debate about whether it is an artifact or an accident. There is no other issue about this find.

Which bit of that don't you understand? After others have removed and changed my words (as originally supplied by me before I learned that writing about one's own POV was not encouraged, and so I handed it over to others), the article is no longer fully my edits nor MY words. It presents all the viewpoints that exist.

Again: Which bit of that don't you undertsand? Would you actually read the article, please? There was compliance with your concerns. In spades. Or is that irrelevant, too, and only I am now the excuse for your incomprehensible insistence on keeping a dispute? A dispute which now appears permanent and rigid despite the guidelines (quoted below).

Here, in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:NPOV_dispute#Removing_NPOV_dispute_notices it says: "Text already in the guidelines says:

"Everyone can agree that marking an article as having an NPOV dispute is a temporary measure, and should be followed up by actual contributions to the article in order to put it in such a state that people agree that it is neutral. " So, Tearlach, this was done, or attempted, but now you say "the specifics [and the changes] aren't important" for judging whether neutrality has been acheived? Are you even following Wiki's own guidelines? You seem to be putting on blinders on this issue, pushing a temporary measure into an eternal POV of your own.

A question that you really, really must answer: Would you label all of the authors listed in this topic's literature -- shown in "References" and "Further Reading" sections -- as "problematical" -- not proper to have access or edits, or correcting or challenging facts in the article or in the literature? Or do you find I am the only problem?? If so, why? If you think the other POV should write it, you should know this: When the editors of the Studies in Music Archaeology III conference book invited me to write a rebuttal article, Nowell et al, with a written attack against my views planned in that same book, attempted to quash my article and censor my POV. But they failed to make it one-sided, and I remain a legitimate part of the scholarly literature on this issue. Do you deny that I am, or what? BTW, I don't believe in censorship. For proof, see [news clipping]. (A case which I eventually won).

I don't think anybody from the other POV would even include me if they wrote the article in Wikipedia. But if you think none of the authors qualify, then who is left that you think can or should write it? Should the writer be someone who doesn't care enough about it to even have a POV, or who is not part of the existing literature or expert in the topic? Of course. How stupid of me! What was I thinking? And that person just came in the door. "Here I am, Bob. I have a neutral view. I think the flute is an accident, rather than made to be a flute, but I think it was made to be a flute and not an accident."

At the Wiki URL about neutrality below, it says about tags: " The neutrality of this section is disputed. Please view the article's talk page. Use this when the bulk of an article is OK, but a single section appears not to be NPOV. You should explain what's wrong with the section on the talk page." Quoted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV_dispute#How_can_neutrality_be_achieved.3F

You said "too long.' So we made it much shorter. But you now offer NO further method nor means for achieving neutrality except now your solution is "Bob Fink, get lost." (And bite the newcomer.) Just because you're afraid of a slanted writing doesn't mean that has happened. Does it?

Another Wiki URL says Wikipedia:Autobiography#Creating_an_article_about_yourself: "Facts, retellings of events, and clarifications which you may wish to have added to an article about yourself must be verifiable." That seems to say I am not prohibited from edits or participation and that verifiable matereial can be allowed about oneself. But again, I repeat:This article now is not about myself. Get it? It is about the debate that exists in reality, and exists in the official, scholarly, reputable, and published literature from many people (which happens to include me in fact). Would you remove & hide me out of sight and make the literary record stilted, dishonest and incomplete? It is about the bone they found!

Like it or not, I am a major contributer to the reputably published record -- in some of the same journals and books and arena as the opposing POV. And after the changes made to Divje_Babe, it is downright false to still say the "bulk" of it is by me! Certainly even you yourself have influenced those changes. Again: Which part of that don't you undertsand? Do you even bother to read the remarks offered here?

The unique, nice thing about arithmetic is that there are no shades of grey: Even the most hideously biased ego-maniac author who is fanatically "pushing" his own self-interested POV, can say: "2+2=4" exactly the same way a "neutral" author would do that. Arithmetic is either right -- or it's wrong. The author is irrelevant. There is no way for a math example (the article's "probability analysis") to be "not-neutral" or unfair to any other POV. If it shows another POV may be mistaken, that is not the same thing as "unfair" -- Is it? And do you deny it's possible that such an author is capable (even though holding his/her nose) to quote accurately [from other POVs] things he/she doesn't agree with, and thus -- be fair?

In conclusion, let me point out that Leon Trotsky wrote the The Russian Revolution -- a major classic, definitive work of history recognized by any literary standard of objectivity -- despite himself being a player in the events (A Wiki_Sin, without doubt). That kind of thing (someone being fairly objective) happens sometimes, even if not in your experience. Your Wiki_fetish about it should be mellowed -- otherwise you'll make it a nightmare for scholars (as my experience with you has been for me) to write for Wikipedia and improve its reliability -- i.e., Wiki's loss.

Well, hit and run -- go "missing in action" -- after refusing to offer any specific argument to justify continuing your attachment to your tag on neutrality. If it hadn't been for you, the article might not have been improved and made as even-handed as it is now. But if it wasn't for you, it would also not still be closed-mindedly disputed as "unfair." I'll be thinking twice before I ever have more to do with wikipedia. It's vision looks far shallower now.

Bob Fink

[edit] Breach of Wikipedia:Autobiography

I'm tired of being treated as the villain for defending a basic Wikipedia guideline. The latest edition of Wikipedia:Autobiography is even clearer now:

Avoid writing or editing articles about yourself, since we all find objectivity especially difficult when we ourselves are concerned. Such articles frequently violate neutrality, verifiability, and notability guidelines. Contribute on the talk page instead.
You should wait for others to write an article about subjects in which you are personally involved. This applies to articles about you, your achievements, your business, your publications, your website, and any other possible conflict of interest.
Wikipedia has gone through many prolonged disputes about the significance, factual accuracy, and neutrality of such articles, including one about Jimmy Wales himself [1]. Refraining from such editing is therefore important in maintaining Wikipedia's neutral stance and in avoiding the appearance of POV-pushing.

You can bluster all you like: Bob Fink and/or Bob Fink's publisher should not be the maintainer and contributor of an article primarily about Bob Fink's work. Tearlach 16:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Hear, hear! The whole article needs to be cleaned up to conform to Wikipedia style, but more importantly we need some other points of view. —Keenan Pepper 16:54, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[NOTE: The above two posts appear to have been entered here when they likely were meant to be placed on the talk page for the Bob Fink page while its deletion was debated. The "history" of the article indicates POV issues are not relevant ( ("19:24, 2 February 2006 Rdos (Talk | contribs) (POV no longer relevant)" ), as the several points of views of other writers regarding this archaeological bone-find were already amply presented. Nor was this page ever "primarily" about any individual's biography and works.]

Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth 03:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unencyclopedic tag

I've tagged the article as unencyclopedic. This reads like a review of research, not an encyclopedia article. In my opinion the article could be about 1/4 its current length by trimming most of the disputed material. And I find the above discussion disturbing on a number of levels. --Craig Stuntz 14:57, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

This notation appeared in the History:
"15:58, 14 April 2006 Kjkolb (Talk | contribs) (replaced tags with a general cleanup tag, the unencyclopedic tag is for articles whose topic is unencyclopedic, not content)"

[edit] Mistake in probability calculation ?

The probability calculation states "there are 10 locations around the bone for each hole to be located, therefore there are 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 possibilies". I think this is a mistake, since the first hole can always considered to be "lined up" (with itself, since the first hole defines the line). Therefore there are 10 x 10 x 10 possibilies, for the remaining three holes, giving a figure of 1,000 and not 10,000 as stated. -- salsaman.

You are right except there are limitations imposed on the set-up of the problem. The idea of the term "flute-like" is assumed here to be defined as being all 4 holes lined-up along the axis of the tube (or femur). If the femur was a true symmetrical cylinder, then the line-up could be rotated as a whole and produce the same "flute-like" condition in other locations on the tube. Those would be subtractable as you indicate. But the location of a mouthpiece (never found) or an add-on mouthpiece, would inhibit the ability to rotate any of the femur's hole arrangements arbitrarily anywhere on the circumfrence of the bone (or tube). So, by this set-up, the first hole must be included in the calculation (as would the plums, cherries, etc., for a gambling machine's results appearing in its similarly "fixed" location provided by the machine's windows), showing how many ways the four holes (or plums, cherries, or whatever) can be not lined up, or not be "flute-like."
Further, it seems like you're saying that two people "standing side by side" could be said, by some mental acrobatics, to still be doing so even if there is only one one person present. To "line up" hole(s) on a given axis requires two or more of them in that set-up.
In any event, being a rough calculation designed only to find the general order of magnitude of the odds, it isn't worth the refinement of subtracting the much smaller number of arrangements that could be repetitive. That matter loses significance because the results remain astronomically improbable to occur by chance regardless which calculation is used.
Lastly, not included are the additional improbabilities of the 4 holes being approximately the same diameters, and a diameter size coverable by finger-tips, as are holes in most simple flutes. Calculating (if even possible to do) the many other hole sizes possible, if they were really randomly created, would make the final improbability odds almost an impossibility. --CN

[edit] Two new articles (Fall, 2006) published

An article has appeared by Ivan Turk (who discovered the "flute" object) which describe the results from testing the object using a "multi-slice computer tomographic process," and another separate article appeared in the Oxford Journal of Archaeology (Nov., 2006) by Iain Morley reviewing the taphonomic evidence.

Both articles have been added to the references section.

A few lines have been added in the text to quote the new or significant points made in these two articles that bear upon or update the controversy. -- CN

- - - - -

We have reversed the vandalism. Whether we signed in or not, there ARE further 2006 journal-published materials from BOTH the finders of the object (Turk, et al), and from Morley, a scholar opposing Turk's views, published in the Nov. Oxford Journal of Archaeology. These are listed and a small updating quote from each is added.

The material is NOT added by the authors or anyone related to them. Your reference to "autobiographical rules" in the "history" is an absurdity, as neither author cited or quoted has done the edit.

There is more to come. We have been written to about *all* the latest publications known (from the Paleontology-Anthropogy forum "Palanthsci," and from others) on this object. There are other papers on the matter from Zoltan Horusitzki (France) which will also soon be listed when we finish reading them and formatting the citations.

Do you have some reason for preventing this literature from being known?

Learn to read the article itself, and to abide by the standards of readers' rights to know about new references & sources, and to aid scholarly completeness. Also look into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Resolving_disputes .

Removal again of this information and reading references is gross censorship, suppression of information, and/or vandalism, and will be fought to the bitter end if neceesary. -- CN

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